Looks like that low price diesel is going to be a thing of the past (1 Viewer)

Aug 18, 2014
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No but they either raise their tax some other way - or maybe their economy suffers :D
What ,more than it is suffering now ? :(
Increased taxes do not increase the tax take. Just the opposite usually happens. Over the last 14 years they quadrupled cigarette & tobacco prices by raising taxes & the result is 1 billion a year less tax than in 2002.
When fuel was at 1,30€/litre here many hauliers were on the point of bankruptcy as they could not increase prices charged.
What is needed here is alternative/new, large scale manufacturing & investment, but it isn't likely to happen.
 

GJH

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What ,more than it is suffering now ? :(
Increased taxes do not increase the tax take. Just the opposite usually happens. Over the last 14 years they quadrupled cigarette & tobacco prices by raising taxes & the result is 1 billion a year less tax than in 2002.
When fuel was at 1,30€/litre here many hauliers were on the point of bankruptcy as they could not increase prices charged.
What is needed here is alternative/new, large scale manufacturing & investment, but it isn't likely to happen.
I was using "raise" in the sense of "obtain" rather than "increase" :) I agree that setting tax rates too high can have a negative effect (and lowering them can have positive effect) - as we have seen with higher rate income tax in the UK :)

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DuxDeluxe

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Tesco have a bad rep for fuel. I used to fill up there and when switched to morrisons I notice a massive increase in mog.
Don't like sainsbury fuel. Asda ain't bad but both my cars run as good with morrisons as BP or shell

Interesting...... suggest you have a look at the other thread concerning fuel additives. ;) I don't think the science backs up that claim.....
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/diesel-fuel-additive.128763/#post-1823920

http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/diesel-fuel-additive.128763/page-2
 

PeteH

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LOW, price diesel?. since when. There is NO reason that a Gallon of fuel need be above £2. The rest is GREED, By successive governments trying to "feel green" whilst Taxing the country to hell and back in the vain attempt to "balance the books", whilst at the same time Squandering MILLIONS (nay billions), on keeping foreign countries who HATE us afloat!.

Time to look after the UK first. Charity begins AT HOME!.

Pete

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Khizzie

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Very easy to blame the government when THEY INCREASE THE TAX ,however price has gone up dramatically after the chancellor dismissed the idea of increasing fuel tax . So once again its the supplier that is increasing it because of demand ..and pure greed
 

GJH

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LOW, price diesel?. since when. There is NO reason that a Gallon of fuel need be above £2. The rest is GREED, By successive governments trying to "feel green" whilst Taxing the country to hell and back in the vain attempt to "balance the books", whilst at the same time Squandering MILLIONS (nay billions), on keeping foreign countries who HATE us afloat!.

Time to look after the UK first. Charity begins AT HOME!.

Pete
Greed by successive governments? Fuel duty (58p per litre) hasn't risen since 2011 so all price rises since then have instigated by the fuel companies to boost the amount they take. Granted there is extra VAT but that increased because of the fuel company rises.

The foreign aid budget is less than a third of the amount raised by fuel duty so the amount raised is hardly all spent on "keeping foreign countries who HATE us afloat!." is it? Indeed, if all the tax reductions which could supposedly have been made as a result of suggestions in posts in the last few years had happened the foreign aid budget would be negative :D
 

PeteH

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Greed by successive governments? Fuel duty (58p per litre) hasn't risen since 2011 so all price rises since then have instigated by the fuel companies to boost the amount they take. Granted there is extra VAT but that increased because of the fuel company rises.

The foreign aid budget is less than a third of the amount raised by fuel duty so the amount raised is hardly all spent on "keeping foreign countries who HATE us afloat!." is it? Indeed, if all the tax reductions which could supposedly have been made as a result of suggestions in posts in the last few years had happened the foreign aid budget would be negative :D

Which in my view (foreign aid) it should be. As stated Charity begins at home.!

Pete
 
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PeteH

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Peter if you are going to quote me please quote the whole post as it the whole of it is relevant..roy

Not intending to comment on the post specifically, and in hindsight I should have just posted NOT quoted. (apologies). I only wished to observe that as we are all only too painfully aware regardless of WHO raises the price the biggest take is the UK treasury. I do agree that the Oil Co`s are quick to raise prices on a bulk rise but slow to reduce the cost on a fall. The same is happening with Gas prices currently too. (Up, quick response. Down, slow response). Happens all the time, and regardless of who sits in No10 or 11.

Pete

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What ,more than it is suffering now ? :(
Increased taxes do not increase the tax take. Just the opposite usually happens. Over the last 14 years they quadrupled cigarette & tobacco prices by raising taxes & the result is 1 billion a year less tax than in 2002.
When fuel was at 1,30€/litre here many hauliers were on the point of bankruptcy as they could not increase prices charged.
What is needed here is alternative/new, large scale manufacturing & investment, but it isn't likely to happen.
Wasn't the tobacco price hike designed to reduce smoking and the NHS bill. Looks like they got it right for a change....;)(y)
 

DuxDeluxe

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I got halfway through typing a lengthy reply concerning the oil market dynamics and then decided not to bother as I've written it many times before. Suffice to say that very many variables affect the pump price of retail fuels, but believe it or not greed by the oil companies is not actually one of them, though of course they are duty bound to make money for their shareholders......
 

PeteH

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Making money for shareholders s one thing. Making increased profit year on year regardless of market conditions, is the "name of the game". It is required by the "Market", when it doesn't happen, the stock is marked down and (company) value falls. So the "company" has to engineer anything to make it look as if they are increasing profitability, most often at the expense of R&D for the future!. Hence IMV the continued increases in fuel costs in an oil market STILL under siege.

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Gorse Hill

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I got halfway through typing a lengthy reply concerning the oil market dynamics and then decided not to bother as I've written it many times before. Suffice to say that very many variables affect the pump price of retail fuels, but believe it or not greed by the oil companies is not actually one of them, though of course they are duty bound to make money for their shareholders......
Hard to believe DD when the boss of BP just awarded £14 Million for last years work, and this in a monopoly :eek:
 

DuxDeluxe

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Hard to believe DD when the boss of BP just awarded £14 Million for last years work, and this in a monopoly :eek:
I would love to have his lawyer write my contracts!!

It is an obscene remuneration for a loss making company, but like most business leaders, the package is probably calculated mathematically based on a number of factors. Taking extraordinary items out of the results (such as oil spill compensation) the company is probably doing as well as could be expected. That does not excuse it, but does go a little towards explaining it. He should have voluntarily rejected his bonuses before 59% of the shareholders voted it down.

Back to your counterpoint, of course there is a difference between personal and corporate greed, but I do not understand the reference to a monopoly. BP certainly isn't that, in fact it is mostly American nowadays. The point was that big oil companies regard the retail petroleum business as a necessary evil and most have either divested or franchised it out. There is little or no profit to be made in storage, transportation, refining or sales; the only real profit for any of the oil majors is getting the stuff out of the ground. It is a massively competitive business where tenths of a percent make a huge difference to the bottom line and this was my point about greed - corporate greed plays very little part in the cost of retail fuel.

On the subject of BP and the macondo well compensation, they were well and truly hung out to dry by vested interests in the USA, from Obama (boot on BP's neck) downwards. Noted that the BOP manufacturer was Halliburton and they very quickly and conveniently paid up a relatively small fine and case virtually closed, whilst BP carried the can, encouraged by a legal system whereby even cat-houses in NOLA claimed recompense for alleged loss of business without substantive proof.

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Gorse Hill

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I would love to have his lawyer write my contracts!!

It is an obscene remuneration for a loss making company, but like most business leaders, the package is probably calculated mathematically based on a number of factors. Taking extraordinary items out of the results (such as oil spill compensation) the company is probably doing as well as could be expected. That does not excuse it, but does go a little towards explaining it. He should have voluntarily rejected his bonuses before 59% of the shareholders voted it down.

Back to your counterpoint, of course there is a difference between personal and corporate greed, but I do not understand the reference to a monopoly. BP certainly isn't that, in fact it is mostly American nowadays. The point was that big oil companies regard the retail petroleum business as a necessary evil and most have either divested or franchised it out. There is little or no profit to be made in storage, transportation, refining or sales; the only real profit for any of the oil majors is getting the stuff out of the ground. It is a massively competitive business where tenths of a percent make a huge difference to the bottom line and this was my point about greed - corporate greed plays very little part in the cost of retail fuel.

On the subject of BP and the macondo well compensation, they were well and truly hung out to dry by vested interests in the USA, from Obama (boot on BP's neck) downwards. Noted that the BOP manufacturer was Halliburton and they very quickly and conveniently paid up a relatively small fine and case virtually closed, whilst BP carried the can, encouraged by a legal system whereby even cat-houses in NOLA claimed recompense for alleged loss of business without substantive proof.
Good answer DD, but how many suppliers are there that I can use to fill my car up, the fact they all make huge profits suggest it's a monopoly
In terms of competition when was the last time that a new player came to the market
Your clearly very knowledgeable regarding the oil business DD, can you answer something that's bugged me for years why do garages sell in Litres yet car manufactures quote MPG as a means of how efficient there cars are, without looking I don't know how many litres to a gallon why not use LPG (litres per gallon)(y)
 

DuxDeluxe

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Good answer DD, but how many suppliers are there that I can use to fill my car up, the fact they all make huge profits suggest it's a monopoly
In terms of competition when was the last time that a new player came to the market
Your clearly very knowledgeable regarding the oil business DD, can you answer something that's bugged me for years why do garages sell in Litres yet car manufactures quote MPG as a means of how efficient there cars are, without looking I don't know how many litres to a gallon why not use LPG (litres per gallon)(y)
Thanks. I've spent my whole life in the oil/marine business, retiring as a global manager for a part of a Swiss company. Still follow the business closely, though.

Ok, your first question first, though very hard to explain in a few words.....

Size is everything, which is why the minor players have been absorbed. It costs billions to build a refinery and nobody apart from the majors can afford to do this. To exacerbate the situation, small refineries are just not competitive and usually shut down. This is why the majors either sell or shut refineries - see the number in the UK that have been either sold or closed in the last 20 years.
An example of where it all goes wrong...... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroplus

Recommended reading is this....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prize:_The_Epic_Quest_for_Oil,_Money,_and_Power
I can lend you my copy if you PM me your details - it would be a pleasure.

The second question is easier to answer. We are almost the only people that sell in litres and report in MPG. All of Europe use the standard litres per 100km which makes more sense. It is simply a legacy from the imperial system as us poor Brits don't "get" litres (apparently)

One thing that used to drive me mad was dealing with the yanks. All shipowners deal in cubic metres, Celcius and metric tonnes with the exception of crude oil which is still categorised in US barrels (or kilo litres if you are Japanese) as the density varies hugely from crude to crude. So all shipowners expect their cargo and bunker fuel inspection reports to be metric. No issues except for the home of the brave and the land of the free who still deal in barrels, Fahrenheit and long tons, except for the Mississippi where they like cubic feet and short tons :eek: They had no idea about metric stuff.....cue duelling banjos
Hope that clarifies a little

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Gorse Hill

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Thanks. I've spent my whole life in the oil/marine business, retiring as a global manager for a part of a Swiss company. Still follow the business closely, though.

Ok, your first question first, though very hard to explain in a few words.....

Size is everything, which is why the minor players have been absorbed. It costs billions to build a refinery and nobody apart from the majors can afford to do this. To exacerbate the situation, small refineries are just not competitive and usually shut down. This is why the majors either sell or shut refineries - see the number in the UK that have been either sold or closed in the last 20 years.
An example of where it all goes wrong...... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroplus

Recommended reading is this....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prize:_The_Epic_Quest_for_Oil,_Money,_and_Power
I can lend you my copy if you PM me your details - it would be a pleasure.

The second question is easier to answer. We are almost the only people that sell in litres and report in MPG. All of Europe use the standard litres per 100km which makes more sense. It is simply a legacy from the imperial system as us poor Brits don't "get" litres (apparently)

One thing that used to drive me mad was dealing with the yanks. All shipowners deal in cubic metres, Celcius and metric tonnes with the exception of crude oil which is still categorised in US barrels (or kilo litres if you are Japanese) as the density varies hugely from crude to crude. So all shipowners expect their cargo and bunker fuel inspection reports to be metric. No issues except for the home of the brave and the land of the free who still deal in barrels, Fahrenheit and long tons, except for the Mississippi where they like cubic feet and short tons :eek: They had no idea about metric stuff.....cue duelling banjos
Hope that clarifies a little
Is it all designed to confuse the customer, with the added advantage of being able to charge more, you clearly know the market DD
Thanks for the link, I will read it, you never know I might change my mind that they are not a bunch of thieving barstewards:sneaky:(y)
 

DuxDeluxe

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Is it all designed to confuse the customer, with the added advantage of being able to charge more, you clearly know the market DD
Thanks for the link, I will read it, you never know I might change my mind that they are not a bunch of thieving barstewards:sneaky:(y)
....... no more than any other business. I could tell you about the underhand tactics of one particular oil company's procurement department that would make your toes curl. All day high level meeting, tough negotiating, all shake hands on a deal and by the time I had got back to the office there was an email demanding another 5% or they would cancel the contract. My response was on the lines of "thanks, please go ahead and cancel"

No it isn't designed to confuse the customer at all, no more than the marketing weasels do, anyway. Shell claim "up to 2 litres a tank" - small print is there of course and 2 litres in a 70 litre tank is about 3% and statistically not relevant.

Back to your original point - nobody makes real money out of the retail business; the capital investment is best spent elsewhere with a better rate of return. Most Shell branded fuel stations are in fact franchised independents and no doubt totally screwed over by the procurement people in their contracts. It costs almost the same to run a 12 pump operation as it does a 3 pump operation so bigger is better and the average motorist simply fills up where cheapest

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Sep 3, 2013
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I have a more simplistic view on this.

I work, or rather did work until very recently, in the oil and gas business and am rather enjoying being a house husband but with no income as I'm one of the victims of the low oil price. Time at home with my family is great, but the mortgage still needs paid and I don't have an infinite amount of savings to last us through the downturn. Trying to reinvent oneself is proving rather difficult, too.

I'd rather the fuel price rocketed as a consequence of a rocketing oil price rather than bemoan how fuel that has plummeted in price of late is now steadily creeping up. The oil price isn't moving much higher and this is terribly bad news for me. Diddums, I know.

I don't give a rat's ar$e how many monopolies or cartels there are, as long as the oil price heads ever higher and my phone begins to ring again with agents needing my skills. Likewise, the higher the pump price, generally the happier I'll be. It's a selfish view, but one that's relevant to an ever increasing amount of people.

Alas, I don't see the above happening for quite some time. The world has changed and the Government will continue to extract as much tax from fuel as they can. I think Diesel is especially at risk as all the guff spouted about it being a 'green' fuel in recent years has now been correctly proved otherwise. The pump price has to rise to dissuade users (in part, at least) and to start paying the environmental price that it is now costing our country.

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