London Emission Zone Petition

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by Brisey, Oct 17, 2007.

  1. Brisey

    Brisey Funster Life Member

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    Hi all

    There is now a petition on the 10 Downing Street web site petitioning the PM to make motorhomes exempt from the proposed London Emission Zone charges,

    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/motorhomes/
     
  2. Ralph

    Ralph Deleted User

    A bit late. The closing date was yesterday and it only had 14 sigs.

    Oops Just had another look. The closing date is one year yesterday! I didn't know they lasted that long
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2007
  3. GJH

    GJH Funster Life Member

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    If I were suspicious I would say that the fact that these petitions last a year is so that they have no chance of having any effect on decisions which have already been taken.

    In general, these petitions (IMHO) are a con by the government to make people think they have a chance of changing things. As was seen with Blairs response to the road pricing petition (which was signed by 1,811,390 before it ended in February 2007) they only have a chance of succeeding if they come out in support of current government policy.

    Perhaps I am being too cynical though. When one looks at this specific petition it appears that it is aimed at Emission Charges as a whole rather than the London LEZ as it doesn't mention London at all.

    Graham
     
  4. RockieRV

    RockieRV Deleted User

    A year for a petition to be looked at seems a very long time indeed.
    Graham, your comments are in agreement with my thoughts.

    Perhaps someone should petition to get the petition time reduced:Laughing:
     
  5. Gonewiththewind

    Gonewiththewind Read Only Funster

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  6. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    emmissions

    I will keep e-mailing it to Ken Livingston to tell him how it is progressing, but I left it open for a year as the law is spread out over two years.
    I wanted to get as many names as possible ( and in 2 days the response is so good) as that is the only way I felt I could let them know how we feel.
    If you have any advice I will listen. In the mean time I hope the Clubs and AA and RAC will help me on this we are not comercial vehicles we are classed as private light goods.
    As someone pointed out Chertsey CC is in the area.
    This not just through London Town it is everywhere off the London side of the M25.
     
  7. BGD

    BGD

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    This may not be a popular post, but it reflects my honest personal views.

    I'm not supporting this petition.

    I'm not persuaded at all as to why motorhomes are somehow a "special case" and thus should be exempted.
    If we are are not going to totally destroy our (only) planet in a few generations by our continuing greed and selfishness, then we are ALL going have to start changing our behaviours, big time.

    I applaud all and any attempts to clean up the air quality in big, traffic congested cities such as London.

    Unless the policies adopted hurt enough (me, as well as everyone else), they just ain't going to work.

    (As an aside - it really doesn't look wonderful when the petition title even spells "emissions" incorrectly.)
     
  8. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    Emission

    Im so sorry I made a Typing error :cry: (I keep using 2 MM's) but Im more interested in getting my point across.
    What I do not understand is that
    1) Lorries from abroad are exempt so can polute our roads.
    2)That it is the whole of the London Area not just the City.
    I appreciate that we must save the planet but if I had a petrol engine I wouldnt even be talking to you as it is only Deisel that they are worried about. .
    We only travel a few miles Rallying with the MCC each year.
    You are entitled to your opinion and i appreciate you taking the time to put your point of view across Thanks.
     
  9. GJH

    GJH Funster Life Member

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    Is this actually the case? According to the TfL web site "Note that non-GB (including Northern ireland) vehicles will need to register with TfL to be eligible for an exemption."

    They actually have a page Here explaining how penalty charges for the Low Emission Zone will be enforced against vehicles registered abroad.

    Graham
     
  10. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    :thumb: http://www.truckuk.net/publications.asp
    I got my info from the above link
    They did not know how the collection would work with foreign lorries.
    There is so much to read on the subject isnt there.
    The petition is growing as now in 2 days it is over 109 people.
    I will make sure that by Feb 2008 I will send the names in to Ken Livingston and the Goverment.
     
  11. GJH

    GJH Funster Life Member

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    They don't make things very clear on that site do they - they would do better to provide a series of links to the TfL site. Whatever else one might say about the scheme, at least the information on the TfL site is clear and comprehensive.

    No need to send the petition to the government - they get it automatically

    This thread prompted me to look at the petitions web site again. I note that they say on the FAQs page:
    "Joke petitions
    Initially we accepted humorous petitions, on the grounds that they did no harm and were often funny. However, particularly after the site received publicity in the media, we found that more and more time was being taken up considering borderline cases where supposedly humorous petitions risked being seen as offensive or in bad taste. Some users also contacted us to complain about silly petitions undermining the serious purpose of the site.
    We decided it was impossible to justify this use of Civil Service time, or to come up with clear guidelines as to what amounts to good or bad taste. Reluctantly therefore we have decided no longer to accept petitions which are obviously intended as jokes."

    and yet the ninth most popular current petition (20501 signatories) is "Make Jeremy Clarkson Prime Minister".

    Sorry to pour cold water on a sincere effort but I think this is an indication of how serious (Not) the government really is about these e-petitions. :Sad:

    In reality what will happen is that companies which run non-exempt vehicles will either replace them or pass the cost on to their customers so, within a reasonably short time, commercial operators will be unaffected. The only people who will be affected are people with privately owned vehicles which are not exempt. By sending a FoI request to TfL a few weeks ago I established that one of the pieces of data which they obtain from DVLA is the Body Type. TfL is, therefore, easily able to exempt motor caravans and any other privately registered vehicles which are obviously not used commercially. The fact that they have consistently refused to do so, despite the evidence quoted in the petition being placed before them by all sorts of leisure bodies, indicates that they are simply not prepared to listen.

    Graham
     
  12. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    Thank you for your reply and Im not being funny I just want to make a point.
    So what are you are telling me, that I sit back and do nothing in life and let the powers that be walk all over me and if this does spread Scrap my vehicle and sit in doors because I will not have a Motorhome to part exchange.
    You dont know me.:Rofl1:
    Anyway whats wong with Mr Clarkson being Prime Minister. He would be a great one.
    I hope you take this in the lighthearted way I mean it.
     
  13. GJH

    GJH Funster Life Member

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    Not at all - but I am annoyed with the way the government tries to con people into thinking that the e-petition system has any chance of making them change their policies.

    As I mentioned, I obtained information from TfL which shows that they could exempt motor caravans if they wished to. That was actually after reading elsewhere that TfL had stated that the reason for not doing so was that their system couldn't differentiate between types of vehicles. I've passed the information on to the Caravan Club and someone else who is involved in the ongoing consultation so that they can use it to highlight the fact that TfL's excuse is invalid.

    On the grounds that he couldn't be any worse than Blairown/Cameron I'm inclined to agree :Rofl1:

    Graham
     
  14. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    Thanks and I will get back to the Kent MCC members and tell them all the info you have given me.
    :thumb:
     
  15. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    emmissions

    I have had on another site Interesting answer

    Re:Emission Charges - 2007/10/18 20:29 This problem doesn't just apply in the UK. I am aware that the Féderation International de Clubs de Motorhomes (France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Luxembourg, Italy and the UK [both MCC and HCI] membership) has petitioned Paolo Costa, the Chairman of the transport committee in Brussels to try to get something done.

    When questioned by letter, the official response from Fiat was that particulate filters cannot be retro fitted to older vehicles. Similar responses are expected from the manufacturers of engines for other base vehicles.
     
  16. wilko09

    wilko09 Deleted User

    Does £100 to leave the area and another £100 to enter again (if you live in it) and a fine of up to £1000 for failure to pay within 14 days hurt enough?

    This has nothing to do with reducing pollution, it is just another way of squeezing money out of us to pay for this governments financial incompetence of the last 10 years, another stealth tax masquerading as a green issue being made more palatable\justified because it seems to tap into peoples guilt complex!

    Good on you Mavis, you are dead right, what do you do, just let those in power keep walking all over us without so much as a squeak? I am not naive enough to think that this petition will change anything but I will still be signing it!


    Martin
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2007
  17. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    Here is what the SMMT and the Caravan Club said in their consultation papers to Ken:

    SMMT

    The SMMT say the motorhomes should not be included in the LEZ:
    Seeks reconsideration of inclusion of motor caravans in LEZ because the numbers of motorhomes in London in very small: The overall number of motorhomes in use in the UK is 136,000 out of total parc of some 30 million vehicles
    They also make the point that you have made regarding the costs:
    Motorhomes are leisure vehicles, not commercial ones: their inclusion in the proposed LEZ has major implications for their owners, private individuals, not businesses. The economic implications for owners who live within London boroughs cannot be compared to a business that has the option to replace, renew, move or upgrade.
    Motorhomes travel very low mileages: the average mileage travelled by motorhomes is about 6,000 miles per annum, close to fifty percent of all other vehicles, and considerably less than commercial vehicles.
    The SMMT cannot understand why anyone would want to travel through London in a motorhomes unless absolutely necessary( confirms what you said yesterday about a sudden hospital trip):
    Motorhomes are used sparingly in urban environments: anecdotal evidence suggests that the motorhomes are not extensively used in urban environments.

    This will effect the tourism industry:
    the zone may have a significant deterrent effect on potential visitors to London . So much so that rather than tackling onerous form filling, tourists from overseas and elsewhere in the UK will simply seek alternative destinations for their tourism spend.
    The LEZ could deter tourism: many users of motorhomes do come to visit the capital, often basing themselves on sites within the Greater London boundary, but then using public transport to reach the centre. The charge would be a deterrent to tourism by motorhomes. Motorhomes are more popular on mainland Europe than they are here. It is very likely these will be used to visit the Olympics and the charge would be a deterrent to tourism at a peak time for London and the UK .






    Caravan Club



    It is wrong and inaccurate to include motorhomes in the LEZ. Ken has said that cars are exempt and motorhomes are in effect a private car. They are not a commercial vehicle which is what Ken is classifying them as. Here is what the Caravan Club had to say:
    The proposed amendment to the LEZ Scheme Order is fundamentally flawed in its placing of motor caravans in a vehicle category other than M1. Paragraphs 2(d), 2(e), 2(f) and 2(g) state that motor caravans can form part of vehicle categories N1, N2 and N3. This is incorrect. The UN ECE document 'Classification and Definition of Power-Driven Vehicles and Trailers' provides a definition of a motor caravan as a special purpose M1 category vehicle constructed to include accommodation space with specified equipment. This equipment should be rigidly fixed to the living compartment; however, the table may be designed to be easily removable.
    While it is likely that the base vehicle on which most motor caravans are constructed would fall into one of the ‘N’ categories, once conversion to a motor caravan has taken place, the vehicle moves to category M1, irrespective of its size, weight, engine capacity etc, which means that in classification terms it becomes a ‘motor car’. It has been stated in the LEZ proposal that it is not intended to include cars in the LEZ at this stage.
    The LEZ is not clear on how it decides whether a vehicle is compliant or not. We have to take their word for it and there is no way to independently check if they are doing this correctly. Here is what the CC said.
    [The Caravan Club are] Not convinced that owners and potential owners of specific models of motor caravan will have easy access to the relevant information needed to judge whether their vehicle is compliant with the LEZ requirements or not. As an example, the current VCA CarFuelData website lists only one diesel engine option (2.3l) for the pre-2007 Fiat Ducato (the most common motor caravan base vehicle choice), when in fact two further engine choices were commonly specified (2.0l and 2.8l).
    The LEZ is said to target heavy vehicles only however, the CC found:
    The proposal is stated as aiming to target ‘heavier diesel engine motor caravans ambulances and hearses’. By our estimate, the defined weight threshold at which vehicles would potentially become compliant (2500kg) would include over 98% of all motor caravan models currently available in the UK . In effect, all motor caravans are therefore potentially within scope, and not merely the ‘heavier’ ones.
    The CC also made comments about effecting the tourism industry:
    Caravanners make a positive contribution to local communities, with Club member families currently spending on average at least £40 per day on local purchases, amounting to over £270 million per annum.
    The difficulties facing vehicle users in understanding/complying with this proposal are magnified when the leisure use (ie motor caravan) sector is considered, as opposed to the commercial vehicle sector. An infrequent leisure visitor is very unlikely to be willing to make such efforts for what might be their only leisure trip into the zone during their ownership of the vehicle. They are likely, therefore, to avoid travelling to London entirely, even if their vehicle might actually be compliant with the zone requirements. By doing so, they will not, therefore, support the many tourist destinations within the LEZ, nor the large number of businesses which support tourist trips.
    Nine of out the top ten most visited attractions in the UK during 2006 would fall within the LEZ. To visit such attractions without the risk of incurring an LEZ charge, motor caravan-based visitors would have to base themselves outside the LEZ, thus deterring them from accessing locations such as The Club’s sites at Crystal Palace, Abbey Wood and possibly Alderstead Heath, all of which have effective public transport links into Greater and Central London. Such issues will become increasing significant in 2012. The experience on the World Cup in Germany during 2006 was that vast numbers of national and international visitors choose to make their trips by motor caravan, and there is every reason to think that the Olympics, with its even greater multi-venue characteristic will generate similar visitor patterns.




    These are comments from the manuafacturers and traders association and Caravan Club. Two big and powerful speakers. But Ken has chosen to ignore them.
     
  18. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    im trying to get as much info together so here is some more

    The relevant part is para 4.2 “classes specified. Eg, M1, M2 etc etc , And this is what is says in European Law:



    5. "Special purpose vehicle" means a vehicle intended to perform a function which requires

    special body arrangements and/or equipment. This category shall include wheel-chair

    accessible vehicles.

    5.1. "Motor Caravan" means a special purpose M category vehicle constructed to include living

    accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:

    – seats and table,

    – sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,

    – cooking facilities, and

    – storage facilities.

    This equipment shall be rigidly fixed to the living compartment; however, the table may be

    designed to be easily removable.

    So this clearly states that a motor caravan is an M class vehicle. Now, there are different types of M class. See this:
    1. Category M: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers.

    Category M1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat.

    Category M2: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers,

    comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and

    having a maximum mass not exceeding 5 tonnes.

    Category M3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers,

    comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass exceeding 5 tonnes.

    So by my reckoning, a motor caravan falls under M1 class. Ie, exempt from the LEZ.
    If this is correct, that means that Kens LEZ contradicts and conflicts itself. On the one hand, cars, ie M1 vehicles are exempt but motor caravan are not. He can’t have it both ways.
    Now I am not sure when this new European Law comes into force, or indeed, if it is already is force. If this is true, we should be exempt!!
     
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  19. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    This is and anouncement from Volvo I Have emailed Fiat for their comments
    :thumb:
    Automakers are making all sorts of modifications to existing models to beat the 120 g/km of CO2 limit for free entry into London when the Congestion Charge rules change (e.g., Audi A3, 16 models from Peugeot, and 23 from Citroën). For trucks and other large vehicles, the key date is February 2008, when new rules for the London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) kick in. In preparation, Volvo Trucks is broadcasting loud and clear that some of their trucks will be exempt from the incredibly pricey £200 entry fee.

    The LEZ rules will be introduced in phases, and Volvo's PR materials say that, "The good news is that all Volvo engines supplied to the UK market since 1993, including all the 12-litre Euro 1 and Euro 2 D12A to D12C power units fitted to the first FH and FM trucks, all the D16's fitted to the first generation FH16's and also the D6A fitted to the FL6, meet or exceed the Euro 3 emission levels required for entering the capital." Trucks will still need to be inspected annually to prove they are indeed still "low emission" vehicles.

    [Source: Volvo]
     
  20. Mavis

    Mavis Funster

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    Make sure you vote for Boris :thumb:
    Dear Ms Nye,

    Thank you very much for bringing this particular issue to our attention. All your comments and suggestions are greaty appreciated.

    Boris Johnson's campaign is at present holding 'working groups' throughout London to develop solutions for London.

    We have had a lot of correspondence about the predicted emission charges and we should be putting more information on our website about this issue soon.

    I will in the meantime make sure your comments will get forwarded to the relevant people for future discussion groups as stated below.

    Many thanks again and kind regards,
    Georgiana
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