If you tow a toad are you legal

Discussion in 'American RV's' started by slobadoberbob, Oct 15, 2011.

  1. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    Leaving aside the legal side of towing a toad.. what of the weight v your driving licence. This will really only apply to RV (American owners I suspect).. if you take the mass of the RV and the car you are pulling or towing on a trailer are you infect legal on your licence? If you have a C1 + E the combined mass is 8,250 kgs on the grandad licence.

    If you look at your plate and add that to the wight of the car and A frame or the trailer will you be driving other than in accordance with your licence?

    I.e if you have a 7.5 ton RV and you only have a C1 + E then the chances are you are illegal as you would need a C licence + e...

    I know from RVOC we have discussed this in the past.. but how many RV owners on MHF are aware of the issues? If VOSA pulled you in for a road side check, normally plod are there and one or the other could add 1 + 1 and come up with a vehicle combination in excess of the allowed 8,250 kgs.

    Just a thought.

    Bob:Blush:
     
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  2. hilldweller

    hilldweller Funster Life Member

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    >>> If you tow a toad are you legal ?

    For goodness sakes, if you don't know who does ?

    What the hell do we pay you for !
     
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  3. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    the one reason i stopped towing Bob :thumb:

    7500kg RV, and with the best will in the world you aint gonna find a 750kg gross weight car.
     
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  4. aba

    aba

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    is it the gross plated weight of the item being towed or is it what it actually weighs on the weighbridge that they will do you for?????

    for example 5000kg gross plated motorhome weighing 4750kg with a gross combined plate weight 6000kg towing a trailer with a 2500kg max weight plate with a smart on it that actually weighs 950kg.

    so do they say that because the trailer can go up to 2500kg you are over??
    or the fact that the trailer and car actually weighed 950kg you are ok???
     
  5. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    plated gross weight of trailer, even if unloaded, and actual (at the time of weighing) weight of motorhome providing it doesn't exceed the train weight of the motorhome.

    only applies if you have a C1+E licence with 107 restriction.
     
  6. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    you would be inside or could be outside.

    It is what the trailer can take, not the net weight of the trailer and the car.... so if you are 5000 kgs motorhome and your trailer is 2,500 kgs you are still within the 8,250 on a C1+e .. i.e 5,000kgs plus £2,500 total £7,500 kgs. .. but if you are saying your motorhome is 6,000 kgs and the trailer is rated at 2,500 kgs you would be illegal as the total adds to 8,500 kgs.. being 250 kgs over the top.

    Bob:thumb:
     
  7. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    100% correct.

    As you has pointed out the grand dad licence normally has a 107 restriction which limits the total mass to a maximum of 8,250 kgs..

    Flatpack Chicken.. Gary to most of us raised this issue on RVOC a while back.. but I thought it might be worth running on here as I am sure there are RV's and some larger european motorhomes may come within these rules..

    Toads are classed as trailers for the purpose of the rules.. although I have said many times that a toad is illegal as it does not comply with the Construction and Use Regulations.. but for the purpose of towing a trailer or a toad (which then is classed as a trailer under the rules) it is the maximum gross weight.. i.e a trailer or that of the car plus the A frame.

    so leaving the law alone on the Toad there is still the issue of if you drove a RV or Motor Home and you are up in the 7,500 kgs area it is unlikely you would be legal with a toad or trailer unless you take a C + E test .. The C1 +E would not cover you.

    When I purchased my RV I was very aware of this issue and purchased one that would allow me to haul a 2,000 kgs Brian James trailer and keep me with in my licence ... C1 +E or 8,250 kgs with a 107 restriction.

    Bob:Eeek:
     
  8. aba

    aba

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    so basically if you want to tow a car on a trailer its best to get them weighed together and have the plate on the trailer downrated to just above the actual weight.
     
  9. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    Brian you know my views as many do

    By now you and most should know my legal views on toads.. they are not legal as they do not comply with the Construction and Use Regulations of the Road Traffic Acts. Even if they should do so they then would be regarded as a trailer and the driving licence issue then raises it's head.

    Bob:thumb:
     
  10. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    It is clearly not such an issue to European

    It is clearly not such an issue for European motorhomes. On RVOC when Gary (Flatpackchicken) raised this recently the post was buzzing for days. Mainly because I think so many RV's are on the boarder line of the 7.5 tons..As most European motorhomes are way under this limit, it does not cause an issue it seems.

    But it is worth checking you licence entitlement and the weights of the front and the back end if you do pull a trailer.

    Bob:thumb:
     
  11. ruffingitsmoothly

    ruffingitsmoothly Read Only Funster

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    Hi Bob

    Why do you continue to to pursue this alledged legal issue nothing has ever really been questioned?

    I have driven tens of thousands of miles with a toad in the course of both pleasure and business both here and in Europe, I have been routinely stopped several times here in the UK and have never ever had a problem with either VOSA or the police.

    I have towed lots of different cars/vans both with cable operated brakes and my own toad which has a Brake Buddy fitted. I was stopped in Southern Ireland in March this year but it was purely for the curiosity of the officer concerned and he was very impressed at how the Brake Buddy system operated.

    As far as I am aware no one here in the UK has ever been prosecuted regards the use of a toad. The only problems I have heard of is mainly in Spain although perhaps I was lucky 4 years ago when we were there with our RV and toad and did not have a problem.

    It is I feel scaremongering of you to keep on raising this so called totally unfounded "legal" issue!!

    Regards Pat
     
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  12. BobProperty

    BobProperty Read Only Funster

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    Isn't better that we discuss the possibility of these things before they happen? As soon as one insurance company realises that someone's rig does not comply with C&U or license requirements it's bye-bye claim. As soon as VOSA decide to have a stop and check session and someone thinks the law the way Bob is suggesting and brings a case then (depending on the outcome), it will become a standard part of the checks in future stop and check sessions.

    Now I'm wondering about how LPG installation listing came about and waiting for the consequences and inaccurate reporting that will follow when some Barry Basshead is blamed for an accident because his ICE is too loud.
     
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  13. beachcaster

    beachcaster Read Only Funster

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    Could you outline the driving licence issue then bob ?

    thanks

    barry
     
  14. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    The driving licence issue is simply one of train weight. Grandfathered licences allow you to drive a vehicle up to 7.5tons or a combined train weight of 8.25 tons. so if you are driving a large RV then a toad/trailer may take you over the allowed limit.
     
  15. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    the issue of the tread was about driving licences


    Pat, I presume you did read the first page of this thread?

    If you have, and I hope you did, you will note it was not about toads, it was about towing in general... toads or trailers.. the thread was about driving licences.

    I presume you do not have a problem with the issue as the type of RV you have is way over the 7,500 kgs this post is about.

    The post was discussing the issues of a 7,500 kgs RV then having say a 2,000 kgs trailer ot say a toad that is ,1400kgs that would take the grandad licence over the permitted 8,250 kgs with a 107 regulation.

    The issue of the toad is a seperate matter. Considering people like Bryan out own administrator getting stopped twice in the last couple weeks in Spain and I might add fined... along with two others in convoy.. the issue in Spain is a very real one. There are a lot of cases now being reported by RV owners.

    In fact on a recent ticket I got for the channel Tunnel from the Camping and Caravanning Club it draws the travellers attention to the issues of toad pulling in Europe. So it is not a scare monger situation when you start getting even the big clubs putting it on tickets as a warning.

    As I have said.. I have heard that this matter is on the enforcement programe for 2012. So we will see what happens. The Construction & Use regulations are very clear on the issues. very few actually meet it.

    You have to wonder why the new SVA next year is coming in for imported RV's etc? Europe is changing the rules to make sure all member states comply in the issues of construction and use... the driving licences have been changed due to European changes of rules. Same thing happening.

    But the post was very clear in the very first one Pat.. I was asking a valid question about the driving licences and what the situation is when you are at the 7,500 kgs and decide to trail a car behind (read toad) and or a trailer.

    Matters should be discussed and not ignored becasue it may affect someone that has been doing for years and worries they may have to answer for it if they are not legal.

    Bob
     
  16. Road Runner

    Road Runner Read Only Funster

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    I have had a vosa check towing one in UK with no problems, cops checked my licence said hello to Bruno and i was off, oh an vosa bloke was impressed with A Frame:Smile:
    Must admit i thought here goes, it was about 18 months ago.
     
  17. beachcaster

    beachcaster Read Only Funster

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  18. Snowbird

    Snowbird Funster Life Member

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    Have had checks both in the UK and Europe several times with both Aframe and trailer. Have only had one fine and that was in Spain for a TRAILER.
    Over Length without a long vehicle board. Would have been over length if I did have a board though, so it wouldn't have made much difference.It did look a bit like the circus coming to town with my then Rockwood 38ft with a tow ball extension with bike rack carrier holding 2 Solex,then a huge Brian James trailer complete with fuel tank and tyre rack on front and LWB Suzuki Vitara on accompanied by all the other paraphernalia that I thought I needed for winter in Spain,not to mention my 2 metre sat dish tied on the back:Doh:
    Oh happy days:Eek!:
     
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  19. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    The issue is complicated but..here goes

    Barry it is a bit complicated (and that is a retired criminal lawyer talking), but here goes:

    If you have taken your driving test since 1st January 1997 the you have to jump a lot more hoops. (you will need to have taken a driving test that allows you to drive a vehilce that is over 3,500 kgs and not more than 7,500 kgs. and also a trailer test.

    But if you have held your licenc before 1997 then you will have preserved 'grand dad rights' this means your driving licence will show you have a C1 + E meaning you can drive a vehicle up to 7,500 kgs and if you have a trailer then the combined (MASS) will allow you to go up to 8,250 kgs. this class of C1+E will have a 107 regulation shown at the side of the entitlement .. not more than 8,250 kgs.

    Leaving a side any issues of trailers v toads.

    If you have taken your test since 1st January 1997 then and you have taken the B licence and then taken the C + E (e is the trailer) then you can drive up to big trucks.. if you have just taken the C licence then it cannot pull a trailer. (unless under 750 kgs)

    So if you drive a motorhome or an RV and you are near the 7,500 kgs then you would be illegal if you pulled a trailer say that is 2,000 kgs as that would make you way over the MASS (combine vehicle and trailer).. need to keep the total of the pulling vehicle and the trailer below 8,250 kgs...

    The weight is the all up vehicle weight i.e what the RV or motorhome is rated with passenger, fuel clothes etc., where as the trailer is the gross it can carry i.e 1500kgs or 2000 kgs.. the weight of the car is considered to be part of that weight.. i.e the trailer unloaded plus a load not exceeding what the trailer is designed to carry.. mine for example id 2,000 kgs.. a toad is the car weight and the towing equipmetnas for legal purposes it becomes a trailer and not a car. (construction and use regulations are for trailers).

    Hope that explains it a bit better.

    Bob:Smile:
     
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  20. GJH

    GJH Funster Life Member

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    You sure you should have been on the road, Dave, and not on rails classed as a train? :Rofl1::Rofl1:
     

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