huge win 10 update (1 Viewer)

[Gromett]

The problem is that many, myself included, are not technically savvy enough to do that nor even know what Linux or OS/X is!

But I bet you have a son, daughter, nephew etc who does though

I have no intention of trying to master another operating system at my advanced age and always manage, eventually, to set all updates to manual and even managed to stop the nagging to update to 10 thanks to info gleaned from this forum, may have even been from your good self

There is nothing to master to be honest. My 73 year old mum has Linux on her laptop and I have less support calls over that than I do for her desktop running on Windows 7 soon to be windows 10.

I am not suggesting it is for everyone by any means of the word. Just like I wouldn't suggest one particular vehicle is the best. But unless people try it they will never know.

PS: OS/X is the operating system on Apples computers. It only comes with them and you can't without a lot of difficulty install it on anything else. It is highly polished though and doesn't suffer the same problems as windows does.

 

[JFD]

Firstly, Linux is not really UNIX. It has similarities, but that's all.

Secondly, you really don't need to be a computer geek to use Linux. I have an old IBM Thinkpad upstairs that runs Ubuntu Linux, and it looks and acts pretty much like Windows. LibrOffice, too, looks and behaves very much like MS Office, but costs nowt.

There are several Linux-like operating systems around for Windows users who want out. Ubuntu is the one I chose, but my brother swears by Zorin OS.

Try googling 'Linux for Windows users' if you want to investigate!!

 

[2657]

But I bet you have a son, daughter, nephew etc who does though


There is nothing to master to be honest. My 73 year old mum has Linux on her laptop and I have less support calls over that than I do for her desktop running on Windows 7 soon to be windows 10.

I am not suggesting it is for everyone by any means of the word. Just like I wouldn't suggest one particular vehicle is the best. But unless people try it they will never know.

PS: OS/X is the operating system on Apples computers. It only comes with them and you can't without a lot of difficulty install it on anything else. It is highly polished though and doesn't suffer the same problems as windows does.

I must admit that the problem for me is laziness and Windows in it's various versions has fulfilled the fairly basic needs that I have for a computer. I just wish they would leave the damn thing alone, I recently bought a laptop and an Asus transformer tablet/laptop both running on 8.1 which I don't particularly like because it assumes too much and does too many operations automatically.However I have come to terms with it and they want to change again!!

I could probably learn more about operating systems etc but i have little interest in doing so, the computer is just a tool for me that makes my life much easier and I tend to work on a 'need to know basis'.

I learnt how to do various spread sheets in the past to fulfill certain functions and still use these templates but it is a new learning experience every time I need to modify or create new ones.

I have a basic version of 'Office' on the transformer that came with it but use Open Office software on the laptop which did not have 'Office' installed and they wanted me to pay an annual fee for it.

I am not a fan of Windows but it works without taxing my brain too much

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[Gromett]

Firstly, Linux is not really UNIX. It has similarities, but that's all.

I know this but it is easier to say and is not too far from the truth. Linus Torvalds who created Linux wanted a Unix like OS on his home computer. Minix was too limited and charged to much. Minix at the time didn't utilise 386 memory management etc. So he created his own Unix like/clone OS. It has the same file system layout, uses the same / mostly compatible tool chains so that anyone moving from Unix to Linux wouldn't have much to learn. OS/X derived indirectly from BSD Via Nexstep.

To say it just has similarities is not actually correct. I was fortunate enough to be given access to some large Unix systems a number of years ago and although I was a bit awkward with some command line stuff it felt pretty much the same. The / filesystem was the same, the boot process was pretty much identical as they both used sysvinit. The configurations were all identical in all but minor ways. The biggest difference was that the Unix system used sh and linux generally uses bash. The similarities are what caused the Unix vs Linux lawsuits (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO/Linux_controversies ).

OS/X and Linux are both Unix like OS's. Windows does things it's own way which was my point.

 

[GJH]

For 90% of people who don't use specialist application Linux is fine. Linux does have a practical range of applications.

Is the figure as high as 90%?

I always think of genealogy software, which is hardly specialist seeing as the subject is so popular, which is very badly served by Linux, especially when it comes to producing large pedigree charts. OS/X is similarly sparse.

And there is very little to learn as it does things pretty much the same as windows if you get the right desktop environment.

And there, really, is the rub. A significant number of people who buy computers want them to more or less work out of the box because they don't really understand them. They don't want to be finding (and configuring) the right Windows-like alternative when they already have Windows installed.

 

[Gromett]

Is the figure as high as 90%?

I saw this figure as a result of a survey. The vast majority of people don't use any specialist software such as, Cad (autoroute), Account (Sage) etc etc. The vast majority of people use them purely for email, browsing, and office software.

I always think of genealogy software, which is hardly specialist seeing as the subject is so popular, which is very badly served by Linux, especially when it comes to producing large pedigree charts. OS/X is similarly sparse.

I don't know about that to be honest. It is not something I have even looked at doing. I have just done a search in the software of my system and I have
Lifelines,
Gramps,
geneweb
available to me. I really don't know what the quality is like or what features they provide. But my guess is you do and these bits of software are not up to the job that a power user such as yourself would need.

Most straightforward software will run under wine.

And there, really, is the rub. A significant number of people who buy computers want them to more or less work out of the box because they don't really understand them. They don't want to be finding (and configuring) the right Windows-like alternative when they already have Windows installed.

You can buy computers with Linux pre-installed. Installing Linux software is much much easier than installing Windows software. I really ought to put a video together to demonstrate how much Linux has come on.


I am not saying everyone should move to Linux, I know it is not for everyone. However for most people it is easier to use and less problematic and you are not inflicted with changes whenever MS thinks it should.

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[GJH]

I saw this figure as a result of a survey.

Fair enough.

I really don't know what the quality is like or what features they provide. But my guess is you do and these bits of software are not up to the job that a power user such as yourself would need.

Not necessarily a power user, the software just isn't as well developed and user friendly as Windows software.

You can buy computers with Linux pre-installed.

Agreed, but how easily to the man on the top of the Clapham omnibus who doesn't see beyond PC World and other large dealers?

It's like VHS and Betamax, Windows may not be the best but it has a market presence as the easiest to obtain (and to use with minimum modification). Linux won't achieve that unless somebody puts in the effort to challenge that presence. I'm sure we both know that ain't going to happen any time soon

 

[JFD]

Funnily enough, most of us have become quite comfortable with using an operating system based on UNIX everyday. Only it was developed for mobile phones by Google and they called it Android!

Most folk hate change - I cannot get used to iOS on my iPad, but I will...eventually....if I don't break it first.

 

[Gromett]

Not necessarily a power user, the software just isn't as well developed and user friendly as Windows software.

I am just curious, When was the last time you looked at Linux? For instance Gramps runs on windows and Linux and appears to have most of the features I as a novice to this subject would want? https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Features

Agreed, but how easily to the man on the top of the Clapham omnibus who doesn't see beyond PC World and other large dealers?

Well Dell for one sells them. It's not something I have really looked into to be honest because it is so easy to install yourself. (Much easier than windows)

It's like VHS and Betamax, Windows may not be the best but it has a market presence as the easiest to obtain (and to use with minimum modification). Linux won't achieve that unless somebody puts in the effort to challenge that presence. I'm sure we both know that ain't going to happen any time soon

Efforts have been put in and Linux is growing. The big problem is that most market share surveys use metrics that measure sales. Because Linux is free and a single download can be used to install multiple systems there is no way to measure linux's market penetration. Most surveys are based on system sold with Windows on them. How many of these are then wiped and Linux installed? I built my own system from a set of parts I bought. Because I bought the CPU, Motherboard and memory from a specific supplier they threw in a copy of windows at such a low price I took it. It is still sat in my cupboard along with 4 other unused licenses. My Dell laptop had windows wiped off and Linux installed. I know quite a few people who have wiped windows to install Linux and none of those installs are counted in Linux's market share. But they are counted towards windows market share

To be fair though. The desktop market it shrinking as many consumers don't actually need a desktop anymore. Prior to the advent of tablets and smartphones a desktop was the only way to access the internet. With tablets now able to do most "consumption" orientated tasks the desktop market is in decline with home users not replacing old computers. People like you and me who use "computers" for serious or creative work will always use them. But the 90% I mentioned previously don't actually need them and tablets are likely to continue to erode the desktop market. I mention this because it is only on the desktop that linux is not King.

Linux rules the smartphone, tablet, supercomputers, routers, set top boxes, cars, airplanes, Space industry and pretty much everywhere else. The chances are that most people have at least one if not more Linux systems in their house and don't even realise it.

I am not suggesting that Linux is the best option for everyone. But as a base operating system it is certainly superior to windows in pretty much every way. However I do acknowledge it has an image issue in the desktop arena and in some areas a deficit in applications.

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[Gromett]

Funnily enough, most of us have become quite comfortable with using an operating system based on UNIX everyday. Only it was developed for mobile phones by Google and they called it Android!

Most folk hate change - I cannot get used to iOS on my iPad, but I will...eventually....if I don't break it first.

Erm. Android is a Java front end running on Linux

Just to prove it. I just visited my website on my server using my Google Nexus Tablet. Here is the log entry from the server.

x.x.x.x - - [06/Sep/2016:15:46:11 +0100] "GET / HTTP/1.0" 301 550 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; Android 7.0; Nexus 9 Build/NRD90M) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/52.0.2743.98 Safari/537.36"

I have x'd out the IP for security.

 

[Jim]

An operating system that gets in your way is a pain in the preverbial. If I just want fast web browsing and email nothing is as good as Linux, even on the old Dell it is installed on, it fires up in a fraction of the time, it never has network issues and always gets straight on line. (Linux Mint)

Most of my day I'm in Scrivenor and Indesign and these work on all operating systems but work best on a Mac.

But its all academic, I think the "computer" and operating system as we know it (laptop/Desktop) is history. It will all be phones and pads and apps soon enough, already the iPhone is the most popular internet tool for visitors here. These are August 2016 figures.

 

[GJH]

I am just curious, When was the last time you looked at Linux? For instance Gramps runs on windows and Linux and appears to have most of the features I as a novice to this subject would want? https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Features

Looking at that link it's better than it was but not as feature rich as established Windows software. I would guess that most people who wanted to use it would run it on Windows rather than go to the trouble of installing Linux.

Well Dell for one sells them. It's not something I have really looked into to be honest because it is so easy to install yourself. (Much easier than windows)

But the general computer buying public will not look that far. They will go to PC World, Staples or John Lewis. Installation of Linux may be easy for you and I but so many computer buyers don't even install an alternative browser because they don't find such things easy.

The desktop market it shrinking as many consumers don't actually need a desktop anymore.

I think the "computer" and operating system as we know it (laptop/Desktop) is history.

I agree that it's going that way for those who just use the device for "web browsing, email, word processing, spreadsheet, the odd picture edit and video edit" (to quote Karl's earlier post) but I don't think it is dead yet. Still plenty on sale in the shops What I have noticed, though, is the growth of machines with no hard drive storage as companies try to push their cloud services.

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[Jim]

I agree that it's going that way for those who just use the device for "web browsing, email, word processing, spreadsheet, the odd picture edit and video edit" (to quote Karl's earlier post) but I don't think it is dead yet. Still plenty on sale in the shops What I have noticed, though, is the growth of machines with no hard drive storage as companies try to push their cloud services.

Yes there are plenty still in the shops and there will always be a need for desktop computing. But take photos for example, only a very short time ago you had to have large resource heavy software to manipulate pictures (you still do for big pictures) Then you had to spend a couple of years learning it (literally) Photoshop/Gimp/CorelDraw are all complicated. These days, "Theres an App for that" My kids can do wonderful things with a photo, before I can fire up photoshop.

Accounts; for years we struggled with clunkiness and paid through the nose to use Sage. Now I can do the most sophisticated accounts and payroll on my phone and a program in the cloud. Process payroll, send an invoice or reconcile accounts in seconds.

CRM now in the cloud, and all you need is phone. Yes Desktops and laptops will always be here, just like I have a mate who still develops his own photos in a darkroom.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

A significant number of people who buy computers want them to more or less work out of the box because they don't really understand them. They don't want to be finding (and configuring) the right Windows-like alternative when they already have Windows installed.

Why do they buy Windows machines then? Getting it out of the box and then waiting for about 3 days worth of updates to sort themselves out and then having to install a load of security software because Microsoft can't be bothered to make their system secure before inflicting it on people and then waiting for a load more updates can hardly be described as "works out of the box" can it?

 

[GJH]

Why do they buy Windows machines then? Getting it out of the box and then waiting for about 3 days worth of updates to sort themselves out and then having to install a load of security software because Microsoft can't be bothered to make their system secure before inflicting it on people and then waiting for a load more updates can hardly be described as "works out of the box" can it?

It works out of the box in that the OS undertakes the update process itself, just as updates to apps and Android do on tablets and phones.

Remember, in many cases we are talking about people who don't really have a clue about how the machines work. They are happy following instructions but wouldn't have the first idea about installing Linux and setting up the alternative software.

I can't recall the exact words but on a thread the other day there were a number of posts about what computer users do and the difficulty of imagining how they got there.

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[Gromett]

When you install most Linux distributions it is a couple of pages to set the country and keyboard and password. Then 1 reboot and you are up and running.
You will have firefox and chrome already installed along with an office package usually Libre these days, a graphics program and loads of small utilities that are regularly used.
VLC will be pre-installed for playing videos and DVD's.

You will see a small icon at the bottom right of your screen with a blue exclamation mark. click on this and enter your password. It will then go off and do the updates in the background without requiring a reboot. The update will take place in the background and you won't even notice it running. In 99% of cases all drivers are built into Linux so you don't need to find driver disks. In fact I can't remember the last time I needed to find a driver disk on Linux.

On windows, you have to go through 2 reboots when installing. Then you have to set the updates going which depending on how old the install media is you may have to go through multiple reboots before the system is ready to go. Do anything before all these updates are completed and you risk it rebooting just when you are doing something you don't want to be interrupted. Once all this is done you can then dig out your MS Office DVD which will have cost you quite a bit of money. Go through the install process, then go through the update process yet again. Then you have to download Firefox or Chrome from different websites and install. If you want to watch DVD's you will have to get DVD player software from somewhere, this goes on and on.

The difference. Last time I had to set up a Windows computer it took me about 2 hours in total to get it installed, updated and all software installed how the owner wanted it.

To set up linux on my laptop and get the core set up working takes me about 30 minutes tops including all software, updates and my personal configuration. For a bog standard computer I can do it in 15 minutes.

I will be happy to demonstrate this at a rally sometime if anyone is interested.

 

[hilldweller]

Linux winds again !

So it's the start of the race season, I boot up the trusty Win XP machine attached to TV, go into Eurosport "Win XT is now obsolete and not supported by Eurosport".

"Damn" says I.

So I grab my Raspberry Pi V3, connect to TV, boot up and watch a flawless Eurosport video. I change to MotoGP and that works fine. Two protected services and Linux worked them perfectly. all for under £35.

@Jaws was asking about an "intelligent TV" for his MH, now these tend to offer a load of entertainment related links but the little Pi will run all these and do emails and browsing and other computer jobs as well, all on 5W or so of power and just a bit bigger than a credit card.

My Pi is loaded with the NOOBS load of Linux using a 32G cd card which has masses of space left for downloads.

 

[peterc10]

Linux winds again !

So it's the start of the race season, I boot up the trusty Win XP machine attached to TV, go into Eurosport "Win XT is now obsolete and not supported by Eurosport".

"Damn" says I.

So I grab my Raspberry Pi V3, connect to TV, boot up and watch a flawless Eurosport video. I change to MotoGP and that works fine. Two protected services and Linux worked them perfectly. all for under £35.

@Jaws was asking about an "intelligent TV" for his MH, now these tend to offer a load of entertainment related links but the little Pi will run all these and do emails and browsing and other computer jobs as well, all on 5W or so of power and just a bit bigger than a credit card.

My Pi is loaded with the NOOBS load of Linux using a 32G cd card which has masses of space left for downloads.

Computer are consumer products now, just like most other electronics. Unlike in yesteryear most users, like me, are not geeks, even though I can remember going to computer fairs 25 years ago! Nowadays most users don't want a rasberry pi, unless it comes with custard or cream.

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[hilldweller]

Computer are consumer products now, just like most other electronics. Unlike in yesteryear most users, like me, are not geeks, even though I can remember going to computer fairs 25 years ago! Nowadays most users don't want a rasberry pi, unless it comes with custard or cream.

OK.

But jaws on the other hand, one the highest qualified electronics wizz kids on FUN, does not have your limitations.

 

[Jaws]

Linux winds again !

So it's the start of the race season, I boot up the trusty Win XP machine attached to TV, go into Eurosport "Win XT is now obsolete and not supported by Eurosport".

"Damn" says I.

So I grab my Raspberry Pi V3, connect to TV, boot up and watch a flawless Eurosport video. I change to MotoGP and that works fine. Two protected services and Linux worked them perfectly. all for under £35.

@Jaws was asking about an "intelligent TV" for his MH, now these tend to offer a load of entertainment related links but the little Pi will run all these and do emails and browsing and other computer jobs as well, all on 5W or so of power and just a bit bigger than a credit card.

My Pi is loaded with the NOOBS load of Linux using a 32G cd card which has masses of space left for downloads.

You know, I had forgotten all about my Rasberry ... I think it makes a lot more sense than lobbing out a fortune on a smart telly...
Cheers Brian

 

[hilldweller]

You know, I had forgotten all about my Rasberry ... I think it makes a lot more sense than lobbing out a fortune on a smart telly...
Cheers Brian

It sure does when you know how to use one. I've only recently bought V3 and it's a blackbird compared to the V2. V3 plus Raspian loaded by NOOB and away you go.

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[pappajohn]

You know, I had forgotten all about my Rasberry ... I think it makes a lot more sense than lobbing out a fortune on a smart telly...
Cheers Brian

havent even BUILT mine yet.
been in a cupboard, still in the boxes, since August last year.

 

[2657]

Haven't got a clue what you are all on about

 

[Gellyneck]

You know, I had forgotten all about my Rasberry ... I think it makes a lot more sense than lobbing out a fortune on a smart telly...
Cheers Brian

Yeh you lost it years ago!
Ooooops, sorry that was your cherry you lost!

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[hilldweller]

havent even BUILT mine yet.
been in a cupboard, still in the boxes, since August last year.

You don't build it, you just plug it in. Well, TV, keyboard, mouse, 5V usb power and that's it.

 

[Steve]

i've been meaning to get one to have a play for a while, thanks for reminding me just been on amazon got v3 plus case and ps £44 be here tomorrow

 

[hilldweller]

Haven't got a clue what you are all on about

I'm not surprised. This thread started out about how to get a clean install of Windows 10.

Then it got hijacked to say that Linux is as good or better than W10, I don't think the OP minds this, he was fed up with windows to be doing a clean install.

Then recently I've added in Raspberry Pi, a tiny credit card sized computer, made in UK, that uses Linux to replicate most of what a W10 computer can do for £35.

So I have ditched Windows 10, which worked OK but was annoying me because of it hinting at sales all the time and doing many updates and not letting me control what it does in terms of upgrades so I am using the Linux operating system that Grommet pointed me to.

Where this can benefit FUNsters. As Windows XT, Vista, W7 become obsolete you can pay M$ £100 for an upgrade or use Linux for free, with a bonus that hackers do not target Linux because there are very few computers using Linux because of the marketing power of M$.

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[hilldweller]

i've been meaning to get one to have a play for a while, thanks for reminding me just been on amazon got v3 plus case and ps £44 be here tomorrow

£44 which is far far less than M$ would charge for W10 and you have a whole computer.

W11 will surely be at least £44 per year forever.

 

[2657]

I'm not surprised. This thread started out about how to get a clean install of Windows 10.

Then it got hijacked to say that Linux is as good or better than W10, I don't think the OP minds this, he was fed up with windows to be doing a clean install.

Then recently I've added in Raspberry Pi, a tiny credit card sized computer, made in UK, that uses Linux to replicate most of what a W10 computer can do for £35.

So I have ditched Windows 10, which worked OK but was annoying me because of it hinting at sales all the time and doing many updates and not letting me control what it does in terms of upgrades so I am using the Linux operating system that Grommet pointed me to.

Where this can benefit FUNsters. As Windows XT, Vista, W7 become obsolete you can pay M$ £100 for an upgrade or use Linux for free, with a bonus that hackers do not target Linux because there are very few computers using Linux because of the marketing power of M$.

I have heard most of the terms used before but have never had any enthusiasm or need to deviate from using Windows.

Both my current devices are on 8.1 which works for me, when I need new devices they will more than likely to be using whatever Windows is offering at the time, and then another learning curve will be started.

Thanks for taking the time to explain what the gizmo's etc are though

 

[hilldweller]

I have heard most of the terms used before but have never had any enthusiasm or need to deviate from using Windows.

Neither have I since the very first windows. I can only remember back to Windows 3 which was mind blowing in it's day.

But W10 has got to me. It was more or less thrust on me, FOC, by M$, that alone worries me. Almost every day loads of updates. I know I can't fully turn updates off. I know it spies on me. I get hit with Microsoft Store. They are after my money and control of my PC. All is moving to annual license for $$$.

In stepped Gromett and I've been using Linux for a couple of weeks now, hardly knowing it is not Windows but knowing I am free from profiteering and pretty free from attack.

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