How are speed limits changed by vehicle weight? (1 Viewer)

Sep 23, 2013
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Unladen weight is a difficult one, but if there was a move for clarification, I'd place a bet that more vehicles would end up in the lower speed category.

It's almost impossible to determine for yourself with a motorhome. Firstly, it's difficult to get to & from the weighbridge with no fuel on board & a right pain if you plan to drain it down while there!

Secondly, the rest of .Gov.uk's advice is very woolly.
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.
You need definitions for 'goods', 'other items', 'parts normally used' & 'when it's on the road'.

I normally use fuel, some fresh water, tea & coffee, bedding (including the manufacturer's supplied mattress) & an oven. Now as fuel is excluded, can I exclude all the other items? Water, tea & coffee, yes, certainly. Bedding - almost certainly, but the mattress was probably included in the manufacturer's unladen weight figure - otherwise the mattress is part of their declared payload figure. The oven is an optional extra, but is a permanent fixture. Does this make it part of the unladen weight for speed limit purposes? But I never use the oven 'when it's on the road', so does that count?

If the manufacturer declares an unladen weight in their brochure that is over 3.05 tonnes, then you are probably stuffed. If they declare a weight less than that, but your vehicle has anything additional permanently bolted to it that weighs more than the margin you started with, you may be in theoretical trouble. But now consider the enforcement difficulties. If the vehicle is declared as under 3.05 tonnes by the manufacturers, then it's going to be very difficult to return the vehicle to a true unladen condition to measure it again.

If taken to a weighbridge, I'd remove anything I could without using a spanner, even if it arrived from the manufacturer with it in. All my bedding & bed bases are removable!
 

johnp10

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Caller,
That still wouldn't give you the unladen weight.
It's a manufacturer's stated weight straight off the production line.
It isn't something that can be dertermined by emptying and weighing a vehicle.
That would give you the Tare weight.

A vehicle may not be stripped to determine ULW, it cant be done.
Honestly, there has been so much discussion on here about ULW, most of which is guesswork, wishful thinking or just plain crap.
Unladen weight doesn't mean "unloaded", nor is it the converter's idea of a guessed figure which tells a punter what he wants to hear.

The problem with this is the same as with many other issues we come across:
Does it really matter, when, as I think PPJ said, speed limits are determined and enforced base on the maximum gross weight of the vehicle?
Also, the Google bandits come out on this one.
Google posted topic info can be found to support any idea or opinion, however right or wrong.

Go with speed limits as per the vehicle's Maximum Gross Weight.
(Not the converter's iffy info, nor the magical MIRO) and you'll be right.

BTW:
"Equipment used to operate the vehicle" doesn't mean bedding, brewing kit, etc.
 
Jul 5, 2013
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Does it really matter, when, as I think PPJ said, speed limits are determined and enforced base on the maximum gross weight of the vehicle?
.
Errrr.... no they are not for motorhomes and motor caravans, which are determined and enforced based upon the unladen weight. At least that is what the government say - see the previously posted link. Vans and Goods vehicles are based upon MGW, but not motorhomes or motor caravans.

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Badknee

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Got done first trip out in my Auto Trail 6 years ago by a camera speed trap I was doing 60 istead of 50 which was the limit for my class of vehicle,dealers should include information about the limits for the vehicles they sell.
99% of van drivers do not know that unless it is a car derived vehicle eg. Astra, Fiesta, Corsa etc. it is subject to the lower speed limits 30 50 60 70. So when you have a Transit, Trafic, Mercedes chomping at your rear bumper you know they are ignorant of the law which is no defence.
 

davejen

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Got done first trip out in my Auto Trail 6 years ago by a camera speed trap I was doing 60 istead of 50 which was the limit for my class of vehicle,dealers should include information about the limits for the vehicles they sell.

Sorry, but the onus is on the DRIVER to know the law, the dealer is only interested in selling m/homes!
Cheers, Dave(y)
 

Shovelheadrob

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The one bit that hasn't been mentioned yet is this;

Motorhomes
Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:
  • carry goods for exhibition and sale
  • are used as a workshop
  • are used for storage
Which means that any motorhome with a "garage" goes straight into the lower limit category
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

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Badknee

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Ours with the tow bar and air lift suspension went on the weigh bridge @ 3200kgs but guess what, when were out were on holiday so what's the rush? I've driven vans and trucks for 42 yrs I'm used to it :LOL:
 
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The one bit that hasn't been mentioned yet is this;

Motorhomes
Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:
  • carry goods for exhibition and sale
  • are used as a workshop
  • are used for storage
Which means that any motorhome with a "garage" goes straight into the lower limit category
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
Not sure that follows at all. I carry goods but not for exhibition or sale and I do not use it as a workshop. As for "storage" if that means storing things like tables, chairs, bikes etc for use when I am on a site then it would apply to all motorhomes with or without garage. Storing things is different to carrying them.

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Shovelheadrob

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I remember reading somewhere (when I remember I'll put the link up) that it is defined as "things not normally needed for day to day living" which is open to interpretation. I would say "I need my bike/mcycle/etc for day to day living" when away from home for a couple of months.
 

Silver-Fox

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99% of van drivers do not know that unless it is a car derived vehicle eg. Astra, Fiesta, Corsa etc. it is subject to the lower speed limits 30 50 60 70. So when you have a Transit, Trafic, Mercedes chomping at your rear bumper you know they are ignorant of the law which is no defence.


Yep

I drive a VW Transportert5 for work and its surprising how many of my fellow trades men haven't a clue about the speed limits

Even the small Transit Connect is in the larger vehicle class

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Badknee

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Yep

I drive a VW Transportert5 for work and its surprising how many of my fellow trades men haven't a clue about the speed limits

Even the small Transit Connect is in the larger vehicle class
Yes it will be because there no car in that class. The Berlingo van is ok but I wonder about the Expert because there is a Taxi derivative and a small camper/ day van?
 

johnp10

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Errrr.... no they are not for motorhomes and motor caravans, which are determined and enforced based upon the unladen weight. At least that is what the government say - see the previously posted link. Vans and Goods vehicles are based upon MGW, but not motorhomes or motor caravans.

OK,
So where is the vehicle's ULW from the base vehicle manufacturer stated on your documents?
It isn't.
It cant be checked by stripping (note: not "unloading") the vehicle, so you either have it from the base vehicle manufacturer or you don't.
If you want the ULW, simply contact the base vehicle manufacturer of your base model and ask for it.
No doubt it will be freely given if they have it, it isn't always even on the certificate of conformity.

My point is, unless you are a boy racer, which most MH owners are not, speed limits are normally never exceeded anyway.

We now have the issue of deck chairs etc. coming into the equation.
I just cant see why folk are worrying enough to bring this issue up over and over, with the same conversations being repeated.

See Badknees' post above, he has it right.
 

johnp10

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Yes it will be because there no car in that class. The Berlingo van is ok but I wonder about the Expert because there is a Taxi derivative and a small camper/ day van?

As far as I know, the term used is "car derived van", no reference to a car (taxi) being van derived.
Open to correction.

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Badknee

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Found it http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-mot.shtml it also means that a motorhome with a garage becomes a different MOT class, but that is a whole new can of worms!
Well, I read that very interesting piece twice and am more baffled than before I read it. Living van, wtf? So if I stay in my van for holidays it's one thing but if I live in the same van full time it becomes something else? Pure gobbledygook :mad:
 

Badknee

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As far as I know, the term used is "car derived van", no reference to a car (taxi) being van derived.
Open to correction.
That's very true, so the Expert van may have been converted to a " car" so it's 30 50 60 70.
 

Patcherelli

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As a retired police officer, having read the above article, I am of the opinion that no Police officer anywhere has training in the matter nor actually gives two hoots let alone the chance of getting prosecuted.

If anyone has been I'd be fascinated to hear

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if its a van of any weight that means no windows and rear seats and is taxed as a PLG then its 50 60 70, I have a VW window van with rear seats which falls in the car tax bracket so I am car speed limits 60 70 70
 

Silver-Fox

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I don't know any one being done in a M H

But know a few getting a tug for doing 70 on a dually
 
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With a motorhome taking unladen weights into account a traffic officer told me that if gross's at 3.5t or under and taxed as PLG then they would not pull at 60 70 70 and he said if its taxed at PHG it would be 50 60 70, I gross at 5.2t so I stick to the lower figure and to be honest that's fast enough with a decent size Moho, if I had the 4.2t transit I would be happy at the lower figure and not invite a problem

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johnp10

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As a retired police officer, having read the above article, I am of the opinion that no Police officer anywhere has training in the matter nor actually gives two hoots let alone the chance of getting prosecuted.

If anyone has been I'd be fascinated to hear

With a motorhome taking unladen weights into account a traffic officer told me that if gross's at 3.5t or under and taxed as PLG then they would not pull at 60 70 70 and he said if its taxed at PHG it would be 50 60 70, I gross at 5.2t so I stick to the lower figure and to be honest that's fast enough with a decent size Moho, if I had the 4.2t transit I would be happy at the lower figure and not invite a problem

Life can be simple if we don't complicate it ourselves.
Just enjoy it.(y)
 

Patcherelli

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I was referring to the mot.

With regards to speed my only advice is this
1 You're gonna be bloody umlucky to get stopped by an actual copper nowadays
2 Static cameras have no idea what vehicle you are driving
3 Mobile camera vans do! The computer checks your vehicle class then works out the relevant speed limit and then decides if you are exceeding it.
All in less than a second and from up to a quarter of a mile away.
4 find out the unladen weight of your mh (manufacturer spec) and stay under the speed limit and its all irrelevant.
 

DuxDeluxe

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I was referring to the mot.

With regards to speed my only advice is this
1 You're gonna be bloody umlucky to get stopped by an actual copper nowadays
2 Static cameras have no idea what vehicle you are driving
3 Mobile camera vans do! The computer checks your vehicle class then works out the relevant speed limit and then decides if you are exceeding it.
All in less than a second and from up to a quarter of a mile away.
4 find out the unladen weight of your mh (manufacturer spec) and stay under the speed limit and its all irrelevant.
I bow to your greater knowledge, but I assumed that a digital camera system would log the speed against registration (of course!) and the computer would flag up the vehicle class in the same way as (3) above. Maybe not but we make sure we stick to 50/60/70

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Jul 5, 2013
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It cant be checked by stripping (note: not "unloading") the vehicle, so you either have it from the base vehicle manufacturer or you don't.
If you want the ULW, simply contact the base vehicle manufacturer of your base model and ask for it.
No doubt it will be freely given if they have it, it isn't always even on the certificate of conformity.

I have already made the point that the unladen weight is very difficult to ascertain.

However, as I understand it, the unladen weight is not of the base vehicle, but of the vehicle after the converter had finished with it. Again there is a link earlier in this thread which states

"The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.
It doesn’t include the weight of the fuel or, if it’s an electric vehicle, the batteries."


That would obviously include everything the converter put in, which would be part of the "the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road"

My point is, unless you are a boy racer, which most MH owners are not, speed limits are normally never exceeded anyway.
Generally agree with that but some of us are old men racers. :D
 

Patcherelli

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The static ones dont. They just know the upper speed limit and enforce that.
If you got pinged at say 70 in a 60 (car speed) so 10 over then it would come to light that you were in fact 20 over. But if you are doing 60 when you should be doing 50 due to vehicle class you wont get pinged so no one would know!

There are other cameras like ANPR or average speed which are different depending on area. In Bedford there are Borough wide average speed cameras which track you all over etc etc

But as you say. Stay within the limit and its not a problem.
I drive a van for a living now so find it easier as my job depends on it.
 

Patcherelli

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I found the unladen weight of mine by typing
"Swift Sundance 630G unladen weight"
Into Google.
Wouldnt work for customs of course. That would need a weighbridge
 
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The one bit that hasn't been mentioned yet is this;

Motorhomes
Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:
  • carry goods for exhibition and sale
  • are used as a workshop
  • are used for storage
Which means that any motorhome with a "garage" goes straight into the lower limit category
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

We don't have that problem here as all of the above in a motorhome are illegal. It cannot be used in any way other than a 'house on wheels' . You cannot use it for any sort of business purpose.
 

Patcherelli

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What if its empty?
Its not used for storage then.

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