Hic! me Ociffer? (1 Viewer)
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hilldweller
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I'd imagine more people get gassed than are caught as the op suggests.
WOW what a point. If you are gassed you are in charge unfit to drive due to drink or drugs.
Allanm
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@Allanm has it right.
This was the result of a house of Lords ruling and is really just common sense.
Police don't need to hang around pub car parks watching motorhomes . They can get their fill of drink drivers out on the streets.
I'd imagine more people get gassed than are caught as the op suggests.
Or so you would think.......
Read this....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-36313944
I wouldnt worry about drinking in your van.....
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appydaze
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Wouldn't it be wise to ask the landlord to keep your keys until he opens in the morning. This must be the answer as your not in possession of said keys and you can retrieve them about tenish in the morning when he opens. Simples, Pat
scotjimland
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Alcohol and sleeping in your motorhome
We ask Philip Somarakis, an expert motoring lawyer with Davenport Lyons, what the legal implications are of parking into a pub car park, having a few alcoholic drinks and then getting back into your motorhome to sleep it off.
Driving one’s “home” to the public house is a pretty good idea to avoid drinking and driving as you now have a pub on your doorstep. Motorhome owners should however be cautious about the risks of being "drunk in charge" of a motorhome if they are staying overnight in the car park.
If you are drunk “in charge” of your motorhome on a road or “public place” you can be arrested by the police and could lose your licence if convicted. This article looks at whether a parking area for motorhomes next to a pub amounts to a “public place” and also what being “in charge” of a motorhome means. We also focus on the scenario where you have evening dinner and drinks.
Pub car parks and opening hours
A pub car park is a “public place” during opening times because there is an implied invitation to the public to drive in and park up to use the pub. The position may change after the pub has closed. In a 1974 court case a person was found not guilty because the prosecution had failed to prove that the invitation to the public to use the car park next to the pub extended one hour after closing time (the time when the police had come to the car park and found the person at the wheel). However, each case is different; for example a pub adjacent to a Premier Inn with 24-hour reception facilities could mean the car park may be viewed as remaining a public place at all times.
Segregated parking during opening hours
Even where there is apparent segregation, by some control system designed to separate motorhome drivers from other patrons, a reserved parking area may still be regarded as a public place. The law is not clear, but it would appear that at least during the day when the pub is open, imposing a control system which only allows motorhome owners into a segregated area would not necessarily prevent that area from being a public place – because such owners would still be regarded as “the public”.
Conversely, if that area was limited to motorhome owners from a defined association, there were barriers/notices and a control system clearly in place then it would be more likely to be regarded as a private place. However a parking place saying “reserved” on it would not do.
Where the law is clear is that if there was a blanket restriction on anyone turning up after the pub has closed and parking up, it is obvious that at that time of night the car park would ordinarily be regarded as private and not a public place.
Drunk in charge of a motorhome
There is no definitive answer to what amounts to being "in charge." If you are the owner or in possession of the vehicle or have recently driven it you will be “in charge”, unless you have put the vehicle in the charge of someone else.
Control over the keys is a good indication of being in charge but is not conclusive.
However that does not mean that an owner is continuously in charge because, in some cases, control of the vehicle has clearly ceased.
The courts accept that an owner is not in control where he was a great distance from the vehicle and there was no realistic possibility of his resuming actual control whilst unfit/over the limit.
Whilst that may suggest that when in the pub “control” by the owner has ceased, the courts may see it differently because of the intention to return to the vehicle at the end of the evening.
Will the police bother you?
Anyone charged with “drunk in charge” of a motorhome has a defence in law. They have to prove that there was “no likelihood of them driving whilst over the prescribed limit”. This can be a complicated process and involves an assessment of what your alcohol levels would be at the time you did intend to drive. Normally this involves having to use a forensic expert to calculate alcohol levels
Here’s an example. You’ve had a couple of pints and shared a bottle of wine with your wife. It’s 11pm and the pub closes in 20 minutes. You are both tired. You suspect you are both over the limit but you don’t have to worry because you are not going anywhere and are not setting off until the morning and after breakfast. As you leave the pub, you see parked up next to your motorhome, a police car. After all, pub car parks are obvious targets by the police for suspected drink drivers.
What do you do? Wait for them to leave or for the pub to close so the car park is no longer a “public place” perhaps? Or stride forth? You might arouse suspicion if they catch you doing a U turn and going back into the pub. If you stride forth yes they may get out and speak to you but one would expect most police officers to take a sensible view here. You are not going to drive off. You are not going to sit in the driver’s seat and fiddle with the controls. If they do ask you what you are doing you will tell them that you are retiring to bed.
All the police want to do is to ensure that drink drivers are apprehended. However, if you have had a lot of alcohol, are clearly drunk and are intending to drive the following morning, you are placing yourself at greater risk here. You will be more of a concern to them, either that they think you are about to drive over the limit, or after your explanation, that you intend to the morning after when alcohol will still be in your system.
The police do charge people with being drunk in charge but normally these tend to be people found slumped behind the wheel of a car in the street outside a house (usually a result of a domestic dispute). Clearly they arouse suspicion and as sleeping in a car is not particularly comfortable, will increase the likelihood of that person driving off (whilst over the limit).
If you drive to a pub with the intention of parking up and drinking, where the land in question is not truly “private” and where you know eventually you will be driving back at some point, you need to bear in mind that the police will assume you remain in control of that vehicle and to them, could drive it at any point.
So consider where you are parking up, whether you might under any circumstances have to move the vehicle and bear in mind it is not uncommon for police to occasionally stop outside pubs. Have a thought to how much you are drinking particularly if you do intend to drive the following day.
Before you start drinking alcohol, you must:
After you've had a drink of alcohol, you must:
And always remember that if you've had a lot of alcohol to drink, you may still be over the legal limit the following morning.
The police’s view
A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) said:
“Regardless of whether you are a driver of a campervan or any other kind of vehicle, the rules of Highway Code and the laws around drink driving remain the same.
“Drivers should not attempt to move any vehicle under the influence of alcohol or drugs and should always ensure they are parked in a safe and secure location.
“If a person is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place after consuming excess alcohol then that person is guilty of an offence unless they can prove at the time of the alleged offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of their driving the vehicle.
“The advice from the police is clear. Do not drink and drive or put yourself or anyone else at risk.”
More information
The rules related to being in charge of a vehicle and alcohol are covered by The Road Traffic Act 1988. You can view it here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/4
you can download the article here https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/alcohol-and-your-motorhome-know-the-law
also added to resources
We ask Philip Somarakis, an expert motoring lawyer with Davenport Lyons, what the legal implications are of parking into a pub car park, having a few alcoholic drinks and then getting back into your motorhome to sleep it off.
Driving one’s “home” to the public house is a pretty good idea to avoid drinking and driving as you now have a pub on your doorstep. Motorhome owners should however be cautious about the risks of being "drunk in charge" of a motorhome if they are staying overnight in the car park.
If you are drunk “in charge” of your motorhome on a road or “public place” you can be arrested by the police and could lose your licence if convicted. This article looks at whether a parking area for motorhomes next to a pub amounts to a “public place” and also what being “in charge” of a motorhome means. We also focus on the scenario where you have evening dinner and drinks.
Pub car parks and opening hours
A pub car park is a “public place” during opening times because there is an implied invitation to the public to drive in and park up to use the pub. The position may change after the pub has closed. In a 1974 court case a person was found not guilty because the prosecution had failed to prove that the invitation to the public to use the car park next to the pub extended one hour after closing time (the time when the police had come to the car park and found the person at the wheel). However, each case is different; for example a pub adjacent to a Premier Inn with 24-hour reception facilities could mean the car park may be viewed as remaining a public place at all times.
Segregated parking during opening hours
Even where there is apparent segregation, by some control system designed to separate motorhome drivers from other patrons, a reserved parking area may still be regarded as a public place. The law is not clear, but it would appear that at least during the day when the pub is open, imposing a control system which only allows motorhome owners into a segregated area would not necessarily prevent that area from being a public place – because such owners would still be regarded as “the public”.
Conversely, if that area was limited to motorhome owners from a defined association, there were barriers/notices and a control system clearly in place then it would be more likely to be regarded as a private place. However a parking place saying “reserved” on it would not do.
Where the law is clear is that if there was a blanket restriction on anyone turning up after the pub has closed and parking up, it is obvious that at that time of night the car park would ordinarily be regarded as private and not a public place.
Drunk in charge of a motorhome
There is no definitive answer to what amounts to being "in charge." If you are the owner or in possession of the vehicle or have recently driven it you will be “in charge”, unless you have put the vehicle in the charge of someone else.
Control over the keys is a good indication of being in charge but is not conclusive.
However that does not mean that an owner is continuously in charge because, in some cases, control of the vehicle has clearly ceased.
The courts accept that an owner is not in control where he was a great distance from the vehicle and there was no realistic possibility of his resuming actual control whilst unfit/over the limit.
Whilst that may suggest that when in the pub “control” by the owner has ceased, the courts may see it differently because of the intention to return to the vehicle at the end of the evening.
Will the police bother you?
Anyone charged with “drunk in charge” of a motorhome has a defence in law. They have to prove that there was “no likelihood of them driving whilst over the prescribed limit”. This can be a complicated process and involves an assessment of what your alcohol levels would be at the time you did intend to drive. Normally this involves having to use a forensic expert to calculate alcohol levels
Here’s an example. You’ve had a couple of pints and shared a bottle of wine with your wife. It’s 11pm and the pub closes in 20 minutes. You are both tired. You suspect you are both over the limit but you don’t have to worry because you are not going anywhere and are not setting off until the morning and after breakfast. As you leave the pub, you see parked up next to your motorhome, a police car. After all, pub car parks are obvious targets by the police for suspected drink drivers.
What do you do? Wait for them to leave or for the pub to close so the car park is no longer a “public place” perhaps? Or stride forth? You might arouse suspicion if they catch you doing a U turn and going back into the pub. If you stride forth yes they may get out and speak to you but one would expect most police officers to take a sensible view here. You are not going to drive off. You are not going to sit in the driver’s seat and fiddle with the controls. If they do ask you what you are doing you will tell them that you are retiring to bed.
All the police want to do is to ensure that drink drivers are apprehended. However, if you have had a lot of alcohol, are clearly drunk and are intending to drive the following morning, you are placing yourself at greater risk here. You will be more of a concern to them, either that they think you are about to drive over the limit, or after your explanation, that you intend to the morning after when alcohol will still be in your system.
The police do charge people with being drunk in charge but normally these tend to be people found slumped behind the wheel of a car in the street outside a house (usually a result of a domestic dispute). Clearly they arouse suspicion and as sleeping in a car is not particularly comfortable, will increase the likelihood of that person driving off (whilst over the limit).
If you drive to a pub with the intention of parking up and drinking, where the land in question is not truly “private” and where you know eventually you will be driving back at some point, you need to bear in mind that the police will assume you remain in control of that vehicle and to them, could drive it at any point.
So consider where you are parking up, whether you might under any circumstances have to move the vehicle and bear in mind it is not uncommon for police to occasionally stop outside pubs. Have a thought to how much you are drinking particularly if you do intend to drive the following day.
Before you start drinking alcohol, you must:
- Make sure your motorhome is already parked up for the night. Do not take the risk of having to move it later to the right place, even if it's just a short distance within the car park or into an adjacent field
- Ensure your motorhome is not causing an obstruction. You should always consider whether you might be asked to move it later so
- Have some evidence if possible of the duration of your stay, so that you could prove your intention to sleep overnight in the car park
After you've had a drink of alcohol, you must:
- Never start up the engine in your motorhome
- Never place the key in the ignition
- Never sit behind the steering wheel or in the driver’s seat if it is facing forwards
And always remember that if you've had a lot of alcohol to drink, you may still be over the legal limit the following morning.
The police’s view
A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) said:
“Regardless of whether you are a driver of a campervan or any other kind of vehicle, the rules of Highway Code and the laws around drink driving remain the same.
“Drivers should not attempt to move any vehicle under the influence of alcohol or drugs and should always ensure they are parked in a safe and secure location.
“If a person is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place after consuming excess alcohol then that person is guilty of an offence unless they can prove at the time of the alleged offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of their driving the vehicle.
“The advice from the police is clear. Do not drink and drive or put yourself or anyone else at risk.”
More information
The rules related to being in charge of a vehicle and alcohol are covered by The Road Traffic Act 1988. You can view it here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/4
you can download the article here https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/alcohol-and-your-motorhome-know-the-law
also added to resources
Last edited:
Zigisla
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I'm sure any landlord would be only to happy to escort you out to the car park in the rain, open your MH up for you and then lock you in, arm the alarm on external sensors, walk back to the pub and hold you keys for you, then dis arm you alarm first thing in the morning, unlock the doors and then go back inside and wait til 10:00 for you to come in.Wouldn't it be wise to ask the landlord to keep your keys until he opens in the morning. This must be the answer as your not in possession of said keys and you can retrieve them about tenish in the morning when he opens. Simples, Pat
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appydaze
LIFE MEMBER
I'm sure any landlord would be only to happy to escort you out to the car park in the rain, open your MH up for you and then lock you in, arm the alarm on external sensors, walk back to the pub and hold you keys for you, then dis arm you alarm first thing in the morning, unlock the doors and then go back inside and wait til 10:00 for you to come in.
Over complicated..
The Dotties
Free Member
If you're not leaving early o clock, ask the landlord if you can leave (just) the ignition key behind the bar. You can still unlock etc.
scotjimland
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we don't drink so won't ever be in that situation..
but I would never leave the ignition key where I couldn't get it in an emergency ..
the simple answer is not to drink, or have a nominated driver who doesn't drink.
The same applies to wild campers, they should always be sober and ready to drive off if the need arrises
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hilldweller
LIFE MEMBER
It's a gamble, legally. Most vans have two sets of keys. The landlord has no legal right to refuse you the key at any time. What if the landlord loses the key. The landlord, not the soberest of professions, is then in the position of being in charge, just. Then the big variable, the copper, usually the good guys but not all of them all of the time.
It's a very badly worded law, abroad I believe you have to be moving the vehicle rather than being in charge.
The good news is I don't recall any prosecution reported on here.
D
Deleted member 29692
Deleted User
As has been previously posted this subject has been done to death and it all comes down to intent to drive.
If your blinds are shut, the cab seats are spun around and you're in bed then you have nothing to worry about.
If you're sat in the drivers seat with the ignition on then you're going to be in trouble.
If your blinds are shut, the cab seats are spun around and you're in bed then you have nothing to worry about.
If you're sat in the drivers seat with the ignition on then you're going to be in trouble.
My Dog Likes Fishing
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Simple solution never mind the law....... Wife I'm having a drink and your in charge of the wheels!
Grow a set........
Grow a set........
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The Dotties
Free Member
Like hospital food then ?
GJH
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Would the attitude of the police depend on whether the landlord had exceeded the 28 nights allowed by the 1960 Act?
Is that a heartfelt plea?
sdc77
Free Member
So yes. The topics been done to death. No motorhome overnighter has ever been prosecuted successfully (have they) .. or even arrested.
If anyone thinks the police are going to be prowling pub car parks looking for motorhomes think again.
As to there not being enough police in the counties.. that's just the way it is. Unfortunately there are priorities and drink drive tends to be only a priority for the few traffic officers..
Everyone else is chasing their tails going to Facebook calls and domestics which are the current priorities.
If anyone thinks the police are going to be prowling pub car parks looking for motorhomes think again.
As to there not being enough police in the counties.. that's just the way it is. Unfortunately there are priorities and drink drive tends to be only a priority for the few traffic officers..
Everyone else is chasing their tails going to Facebook calls and domestics which are the current priorities.
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My van has a bulkhead between the living area and the cab area so I am lucky in this respect. I am obviously not in a position to drive from the hab area
I simply ask the landlord if I can stay over night and leave next day at about 11am. Never been refused.
My defence would be, 1) I am not in the driving area of the vehicle. 2) I have an arrangement with the pub landlord to stop till 11am the next day when the alcohol will be out of my system.
To be honest it is not something I worry about. I am not going to break the law, I don't worry.
I simply ask the landlord if I can stay over night and leave next day at about 11am. Never been refused.
My defence would be, 1) I am not in the driving area of the vehicle. 2) I have an arrangement with the pub landlord to stop till 11am the next day when the alcohol will be out of my system.
To be honest it is not something I worry about. I am not going to break the law, I don't worry.
In the old days, you'd ask the ociffer if he would like to come inside for a snifter!
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