HGV or not (1 Viewer)

[I'm Spartacus]

Geo,

The term heavy motor car refers to :

mechanically propelled vehicle not being a motor car which is constructed to carry a load or passengers the unladen weight of which exceeds 2540 kgs

All vehicles over this weight are deemed to be heavy motor cars, and that includes articulated goods vehicles, which incidently requires a C+E driving licence.

Yet another definition thrown in to cloud the issue by GT.

I think you will find that none of the C&U definitions have changed and that includes heavy motor cars, what we are specifically talking about is the Driving licence categories.

Regards S

 

[Geo]

If you are right were are all the prosecutions???? were are all the stories of Insurance payout declined
Sorry S we'll have to agree to dissagree,
Geo
Ps Im looking at the whole picture, because the parts of the total dont add up

 

[I'm Spartacus]

Hi Geo,

At least we can agree on one thing then, and thats to disagree:thumb:

Regards

S

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[Jim]

Hi Spartacus, you are not the first to throw the Driving Licence Regs at GT's theory, he has never let those get in the way of a good argument. Have a look at this thread from a debate here last August. Link Removed Does he get round it? Well he has a good try

I havn't seen anybody argue that its right that you should be able to dive 10 ton RV without extra training or testing but that the debate about the legality has been raging for at least 5 years on forums (led mostly by GT I must say) Though even GT recommended people get the right training before taking an RV on the road. Its a no brainer really

 

[moandick]

How I so thoroughly agree with you, Jim - it is a total no-brainer.

Why would anybody want to drive a huge vehicle worth hundreds of thousands of pounds without being sure that they were driving it (in theory) legally. That is why the majority agree with Spartacus in practise even if we might 'discuss' the topic in theory.

However what gets right up my nose is when a chap driving a 16 ton, top of the range, tag axle, quad slide RV complete with built-in wind-station retractible awnings comes straight out and says that he is driving it on his car licence and what is more he has told his Insurance Company - and they have accepted it.

AND NOBODY IN AUTHORITY DOES ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

 

[ukrv]

I would like to quickly add my agreement to the following statement, made by Spartacus, in reference to GT;

With regard to his correspondence with various Govt dept's, has anybody seen copies of his letters.........has anyone seen the replies from these dept's?

With all of the "isn't GT great" slant of posts here just lately, I would simply like to say he would have earned the respect of a few of us doubters if he provided the evidence to go with his views.

Let's face it, they were topics he got involved with so often you would think he'd have it all to hand to save the need to keep typing it all.

I for one was fed-up with "ring Marsham" every time you questioned his view.

Just my opinion and definately not wishing to start that whole GT debate up again.

Paul

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[Rapide561]

HGV licence

Hi

This is my logical approach to the subject based on the weight of the vehicle rather than its' classification/

Assuming you passed your driving test pre 97 and can therefore drive upto 7500 kgs.

1) Does your motorhome weigh in excess of 7500kg? If yes go to point 2.

2) Does your driving licence permit you to legally drive vehicles weighing in excess of 7500 kg? If yes, good for you, if no, go to point 3.

3) On he basis that your vehicle weighs more than 7500kg and your licence permits you to drive vehicles weighing up to 7500kg, as established from 1 and 2 above, would you feel happy that your insurance firm will pay out, if, whilst driving your motorhome you are involved in an accident and seriously injure a person, who may never be able to work again as a result of his injury?

The trouble is we could go on for ever. So, who does drive a motorhome weighing in excess of 7500 kg on a car licence? Would YOU be willing to test the law? IE - a bit of speeding on the motorway, drive the wrong way down a one way street and then show the officer of the law your licence and also your V5 log book? Clearly pointing out that you are happy to drive the heavy vehicle on your car licence?

It will only be when cases are publicly reported that the answer be known.

I would be interested to know how many people are driving a vehicle weighing over 7500 kg on a car licence. Does your insurance company know?

We could go on for ever, and I shall not post again on this subject. I feel very strongly about it.

If those with a car licence who are driving heavy vehicles are prepared to speak out, can I ask you a question.

Would you be willing to let someone with a car licence only drive your child's school bus? I know it is a bus, but is is about the same weight and dimensions?

Anyway, I shall leave it at that. for the sake of a few hundred quid, it must be worth doing a HGV test, for peace of mind if nothing else.

Obviously it is quite possible that there are no funsters who are driving a vehicle weighing over 7500 kg on a car licence.

Russell

 

[Jim]

Hi Paul,

Whilst GT was here you refused to post. Now that he is not here to defend himself you post about him!

 

[ukrv]

Jim

You could have PM'd me your view - it would have saved trying to embarass me on the forum.

I will PM you my reply.

Paul

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[Jim]

I wasn't trying to embarass you Paul, I am sorry if you are. I await your PM

 

[Supertractorman]

I do not wish to enter the debate on rights or wrongs of this issue, but it does concern me when Dealers splash over screens of RV's " Can be driven on Car Licence ". This implies to me that Joe Bloggs who wins the Lottery pays his money and drives off with it.
Spare a thought for other road users, I have both HCV & PCV and been scared stiff of some RV's approaching hogging the white line on narrow roads, plus meeting Caravanners with large vans.
Maybe all the Dealers ought to encourage new Purchasers to come on a website like this to get some honest advice, and maybe there is scope for someone to set up an RV Driving School.

David

 

[moandick]

Quote: For licensing purposes you should dismiss the term HGV and concentrate on permitted weights and categories C1, C1+E, C and C+E. Quote

Yep, thoroughly agree with that let's leave HGV out of the discussion completely.

Now then to drive a large vehicle over 7½ tons I need a class C - yep, agree with that - er, well no, actually - not quite true.

A coach driver doesn't have to pass a class C - he has to pass a class D because that test is more particularly designed for his type of vehicle. I assume that he has to abide by tacho laws and driver hours etc., etc., etc BUT he has to pass a Class D and is not allowed to drive a Class C.

A lorry driver has to pass a Class C because that test was designed for his type of vehicle - 8 or more forward gears, RHD big box body, Tacho requirements, Driver hours, extra speed limits etc., etc., etc and he is not allowed to drive a class D.

An RV Driver has to pass a large vehicle test - yep, go along with that BUT which test - no point with a Class D because that is for people carrying vehicles.

No point in a Class C because that is designed specifically for HGV otherwise a coachdriver would have to pass it wouldn't he?

So what licence does an RV driver have to pass?

THERE ISN'T one, is there, which is specifically designed for our type of Vehicle - No manual gearbox and certainly not enough gears, no requirement for tacho, specific driving hours, roping and sheeting etc., etc., etc., - we don't carry enough passengers for a Class D and our vehicle is registered as a car!

SO WHICH LICENCE DO WE NEED?

Yep, take the HGV out of the Class C, the C1 and the the C+E, - absolutely thoroughly agree with that - I can live with that, definitely!

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[moandick]

Hi Fordson

I am not advertising any services whatsoever but there is an RV school at my location!

 

[Jim]

I do not wish to enter the debate on rights or wrongs of this issue, but it does concern me when Dealers splash over screens of RV's " Can be driven on Car Licence ". This implies to me that Joe Bloggs who wins the Lottery pays his money and drives off with it.
Spare a thought for other road users, I have both HCV & PCV and been scared stiff of some RV's approaching hogging the white line on narrow roads, plus meeting Caravanners with large vans.
Maybe all the Dealers ought to encourage new Purchasers to come on a website like this to get some honest advice, and maybe there is scope for someone to set up an RV Driving School.

David

Hi David

The signs you see " Can be driven on Car Licence " are on RVs that are under 7.5t. They will be no narrower and could even be wider than an 10t RV so either way they will still be hogging that white line

 

[moandick]

Hogging the white line - that's what it's all about, ain't it, Jim. Not letting anybody else have my share of the road - no way. I bet you are one of them people who slow down and let other cars in from the fast lane, too, ain't you? Not me - nobody's havin more than my share of the road


Sorry, Jim, couldn't help it - we've been far too serious for far too long. You are going to have to ban me so that I can get on and do some of my own work, today.

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[Euroanchor]

Quote: For licensing purposes you should dismiss the term HGV and concentrate on permitted weights and categories C1, C1+E, C and C+E. Quote

Yep, thoroughly agree with that let's leave HGV out of the discussion completely.

Now then to drive a large vehicle over 7½ tons I need a class C - yep, agree with that - er, well no, actually - not quite true.

A coach driver doesn't have to pass a class C - he has to pass a class D because that test is more particularly designed for his type of vehicle. I assume that he has to abide by tacho laws and driver hours etc., etc., etc BUT he has to pass a Class D and is not allowed to drive a Class C.

!

A class D licence is required to drive a vehicle capable of carrying more than 12 fare paying passengers, it has no relevance to size of vehicle. That is why the driver of a stretch limo was recently convicted for not having a class D licence whilst carrying 13 people in his Lincoln.

No doubt all the people on here who insist you do not need any additional licence to drive a motor vehicle over 7500 kgs, dont have one, And will use this "grey area" defence purely because it suits their needs.

Anybody can twist the laws to mean whatever they would like them to mean, logic however is beyond the reach of many of those individuals.Here's a valid example,
It is still legal to kill a Scotsman out at dark in one particular town(cant remember which), as long as you shoot him with a cross bow.

Now this law has never been repealed by parliment, so technically is still a valid law, how many of you "no licence needed in this grey area" fancy a bit of shooting tonight ? Do you think we would get away with it ? of course not, because subsequent laws are being, and have been passed that outlaw murder.

In the same manner ,the DVLA and police and courts have had a nightmare trying to classify vehicles, I doubt anyone on here knows the licencing laws thoroughly enough to give information strong enough to be 100% right.
As I, and several others have pointed out, we need to forget motorhome,rv,lorry and coach, and concentrate more on vehicle weights, because that's what matters for the purpose of your driving licence.

And just for those who still doubt the above, my brother only has a class A (motorcycle) licence, yet drives a car, no L plates, no qualified driver it has reverse gear 4 seats and he is fully legal to drive it , it's not a Reliant 3 wheeler. Answers below please.

 

[moandick]

Hi Euroanchor

Are saying that a coachdriver with probably 10 tons or more of coach filled with forty or so passengers doesn't need a Large Vehicle licence?

 

[Jim]

No doubt all the people on here who insist you do not need any additional licence to drive a motor vehicle over 7500 kgs, dont have one, And will use this "grey area" defence purely because it suits their needs.

No one (apart from GT) is insisting that you do not need one, they are merely stating that it is a grey area. Your posts on this thread only confirm how complicated and open to interpretation that traffic and licensing laws are.

I have a C licence so does almost everyone I know that drive a vehicle in excess of 7.5t, but I am sure that there are hundreds that only have a car licence. Much of our laws are made from case law, so maybe its only a matter of time before someone is prosecuted and a precedent set.

Meanwhile please elaborate on the murdering of scotsmen, I would be very surprised if this were within the law, even after devolution

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[pappajohn]

my memory is a little vague after 30years but i seem to remember having full coach entitlement on my first full licence but only on a private use basis not for hire or reward use. after my drink/drive ban:Blush: it had been removed for some reason and i never queried it as i never thought id need it. if only id known i might, one day, want to drive an rv........
i may be wrong about this through the mists of time................oh:

john.

 

[johnsandywhite]

And just for those who still doubt the above, my brother only has a class A (motorcycle) licence, yet drives a car, no L plates, no qualified driver it has reverse gear 4 seats and he is fully legal to drive it , it's not a Reliant 3 wheeler. Answers below please.

:Cool: It's one of those diddy cars with a minuscule engine.

Link Removed

 

[moandick]

Sorry John, it wouldn't have done you any good - a coach licence does not allow you to drive an RV.

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[pappajohn]

Sorry John, it wouldn't have done you any good - a coach licence does not allow you to drive an RV.

yeah, i realized this from your previous post.
but tell me why, as a lot of american rv's are presumably built on coach and not truck chassis, and the 'cargo' is going to be people and not goods, must it be classed as an HGV
i know some RV's are built on purpose made chassis but still of the coach type.

 

[pappajohn]

:Cool: It's one of those diddy cars with a minuscule engine.

Link Removed

on tv last night (police stop or similar) there was a 16 year old learner driving what was described as a funtec, full body, 2 wheels at the front. 1 at the back and 2 rear outrigger stabilizers. 49cc engine and would have been fully legal but for no "L" plates and lights not working.
not as fancy as the one in johns foto though.

 

[moandick]

John, oh John - you are one of the very first - if not the first person to see exactly what we are talking about.

Nobody that I know is complaining about taking a large vehicle licence - in fact most of us would welcome IF it was a licence that suited our vehicle.

Coach Drivers take coach licences, minibus drivers take minibus licences, taxi drivers take taxi licences and I'm sure horse riders take horse licences -

so why does an RV driver have to take a licence that is more suited to an HGV than a coach.

And to the other people who are subscribing here, let me re-assure you that I already have a C+E licence even though I have only ever driven an HGV on my 5 day driving course and Test!

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[Euroanchor]

:Cool: It's one of those diddy cars with a minuscule engine.

Link Removed

Thats the one John, apparently its legal on a class A licence because of the weight as opposed to the engine size.

And Mo I never mentioned a coach driver doesn't need a large vehicle licence, the class D is required to carry passengers and you take the test in a coach or minibus because of this, taxi drivers however are licenced by the local authorities and receive a hackney licence, it has nothing to do with taking a driving test.

 

[Tony Hunt]

Its only the DVLA who insist RVs are HGV. The rest of officialdom have accepted theyre not.
This argument wont ever affect me cos I have the best of both worlds. Living permanently in a 38 footer on site I have all the luxuries of a once top of the range RV, I get the feeling Im on a permanent camping holiday plus I never get to drive it and suffer all the drawbacks and high costs of RV ing I wouldnt mind driving it just once on the road to get the feeling you guys enjoy but Im too tite to spend a couple of grand getting a C+E just sos I can tow our little car around behind us on tour.
We're commited to sticking with our 4 tonne Bessacarr now for the forseeable future. It gets us places where you guys have a problem getting and a lot cheaper or thats what I keep convincing meself. We do miss the space that our slideouts offer whilst at home and its a ruddy nuisance having to empty a lot of our possesions from one motorhome to another to go away anywhere. I just keep reminding myself of all the money Im saving not having a driveable RV
P.S. I wouldnt mind betting Euroanchor and Spartacus work for the DVLA sorry only kidding.

 

[moandick]

Okay, Euroanchor - you are almost there now.....

If a coach driver has to take a large vehicle test - in which vehicle does he take it - an HGV or a coach?

If he takes it in a coach - why? Because that coach is suited for his job and therefore the test is designed for his vehicle. What would be the sense in him taking his coach test in an HGV?

You have just proved my point :thumb:

Why should I have to take a test in an HGV when I am not ever going to drive an HGV?

Why can't I take my large vehicle licence in my RV - a test which is specially designed for my vehicle - in exactly the same way that a coach driver takes his test in his coach.

End of story, I think

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[Supertractorman]

The problem with taking a test in your RV's could be that if the examiner had to sit on the nearside of your vehicles, he would then have to drive so you would nearly always pass.

David

 

[moandick]

Nah, he couldn't sit on the nearside - the chauffeur sits there - i'm navigating on the other side whilst Mo is in the back-seat telling is both where to go.:Sad:

 

[Road Runner]

I found my motorcycle licence had been removed when I moved over on to the photo licence (wonder what other categories went then unnoticed?)

I only realised it a few years later and the DVLA would do nothing to re instate it till I had to inform them in 2000 I was now tablet controlled diabetic (the medical section kindly did a search for me something I was told not possible by another department and they confirmed I had past my bike test in 1970 and it was instantly reinstated)

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