Help needed - which camera? (1 Viewer)

[Deleted member 29692]

And stick to AUTO, works a treat.

Terrible terrible advice Brian. It doesn't work a treat.

If you all you ever want to do is churn out crappy snapshots* then I suppose Auto will do but if you're going to do that you may as well just use your phone and save carrying something else around.

On Auto you are letting the camera make every important decision based on average metering. You get no choice at all in regard to the image composition, no depth of field, no chance to alter your focus or metering point. You won't get any drama into the image. It will try and get every thing in the frame perfectly exposed and in focus which never results in the image looking like anything other than a snapshot. If you're happy with that fine I guess but it isn't photography.

If this is how you take you pictures then you need to watch the tutorials as well and then learn how to use your camera properly. You will be amazed at the difference in your shots.


*To describe a picture as a "snapshot" is the worst possible insult you can ever give or receive from a photographer.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

The thing is, with digital you just keep snapping, they cost nothing and some will be great. This is just what the pros do in the studio.

I can assure you it bloody isn't.

When you're paying several thousand pounds for a camera body with a limited shutter count you want it to last as long as possible so the last thing you do is "keep snapping away" unless you're either stupid or you can afford to replace bodies willy nilly.

Anyway even if you wanted to shoot like that you can't as the flash elements of your lighting wouldn't keep up.

Also when you're paying for a models time you don't waste it by taking the same shot 30 times just because you can. You compose the shot, take it once and move on. The only wasted shots you should end up with after a studio shoot are maybe half a dozen maximum at the start for metering purposes.

 

[hilldweller]

Terrible terrible advice Brian. It doesn't work a treat.

If you all you ever want to do is churn out crappy snapshots* then I suppose Auto will do

My snapshots are there for all to see, look in my sig. Unless you see any blurred water they are all taken on auto using many generations of camera, non are with expensive SLR cameras.

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[Big bus man]

You are right Brian, it is what you don't obviously see that makes a better photographer, running water and especially in my case low light photography, it is being able to understand how an image will turn out by using the camera's other functions that is the difference between a good photographer and an average one. My theory is you are either born a good photographer or you can learn it, but you have to want to be able to learn it, sometimes good pictures are just luck.

 

[hilldweller]

sometimes good pictures are just luck.

Right place, right time, certainly.

I remember one day on the Rhein, I saw this picture, olde worlde little castle but the sun was round the side so I waited an hour or two for the sun to hit the black/white façade, it lit up and produced a vibrant picture.

And think backwards. Not I'm holding a camera, I'll take a good picture. But instead, there's a good picture, where is my camera, you make the picture in your mind then sort out capturing it, unless it's something moving, then be thinking that boat will look good as it passes that rock and wait for it and this is where rattling a few off works to get the best mix of the boat and the rock.

And don't be lazy, be prepared to walk. You might have a decent picture "here" but walk a bit an you'll get something much better "there".

 

[Scattycat]

We have several Lumix cameras, compact and a GF2 with interchangeable lens.
For me it's a great little camera and as for quality all I can say is that I recently joined a local camera club and was a little nervous about entering its competitions because a lot of the other members had expensive all singing all danceing well known makes.
I won the first competition I entered and came second in the next one. So as far as quality of the images it produces I've no complaints.
As someone posted earlier, it's not what you've got it's the way you use it . . . . . . . . But in my case I reckon it was just beginers luck.

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[Deleted member 29692]

Quick quiz.

Is this image:

a) a talentless snapshot
b) fine art photography

 

[Big bus man]

Sorry but I would say 'a'.

Reason, not using thirds (33% grass, 33% water, 33%sky), the picture does not hold interest because of the flat lighting. If it were B/W with loads of contrast and something to focus on it might count as fine art, to do something with it in Photoshop might make it a fine art image but then it is not a photograph, just an image that is manipulated, no skill involved.

Put someone walking into the shot then it would pass but still the flat lighting

 

[Deleted member 29692]

You would be wrong.

It's called Rhein II and it's by Andreas Gursky taken in 1999. A print of it sold in 2011 for £2.7 million. No that isn't a typo. Really £2.7million.

It actually has been photoshopped. There were dog walkers in the foreground and a factory or something in the background all of which have been removed.

I don't like it either.

As an exercise though the next time you're passing a river try and take that shot. It isn't as easy as you might think.

EDIT: Don't agree with you about the skill or lack of in manipulating images afterwards but that's for a different thread.

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[Big bus man]

An I bet 1.35million went to the judge afterwards!!

 

[cliffanger]

Don't be daft, you've taken a picture, you've got it out of the camera and on to this forum, you are 95% there.

The thing is, with digital you just keep snapping, they cost nothing and some will be great. This is just what the pros do in the studio.

And stick to AUTO, works a treat. The only time I do it manually is for a very long exposure to get burred running water.

You've got the right idea in that photo, two seats, a glass of wine and a view. Now if that wall was not ruining it, say a table instead of the wall it could have been a good 'un.

One thing you need to learn is Rule of Thirds. The ancient artists found this. But a noughts & crosses board in your viewfinder ( many cameras will actually do this on screen ) the you position the important parts on one of the crosses, on one of the thirds. Mostly the composition will look "right". That wine glass if it were on the lower left crossing and you went in closer to make it a bit bigger and it would be much more pleasing.

Slight improvement, I've got two features close to the thirds.......

View attachment 83376

Hi Brian, you give me hope - thanks for that!

 

[Deleted member 29692]

An I bet 1.35million went to the judge afterwards!!

Have a Google of Gursky.

I don't think you're going to be a fan of his work

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[vin0114]

you have a perfectly reasonable camera in the DMC FZ5, you can get a new battery for around £10. the wide angle end is 36mm which is not brilliant so your probably going to have to learn to take panoramas if not wide enough for you. The 12x zoom is good and if the lighting conditions are good this camera will give you excellent results. Just get out there and use it, that's the best way to learn, it won't cost you anything and if they are rubbish just delete them. Get someone to comment on what you take. I have a Canon G11, Canon EOS500D and a Fuji bridge camera similar to yours and this goes everywhere with me while the other 2 sit at home! unless I'm shooting in low light where the Canons excel.

 

[vin0114]

It has a lens hood - when would I use that? all the time - protects the lens and diminishes flare

It has a view finder, which I think is good? very good, much easier to zoom and compose images

Do I leave it on auto, or do I use it on manual, in which case what exposure/aperture etc etc do I use? Leave on program-auto and concentrate on composition unless your doing panoramas in which case point your camera at a part of the image that is of average brightness and read the settings that show in the viewfinder - that's will be the manual setting to use for all the shots.

Maybe consider going on a night course in Photography

 

[parknride]

Well @cliffandger I wish you hadn't posted this thread. It prompted me to go buy a new camera for my impending holiday to New York (I'm scared witless BTW) but Les says we are going. I never got to grips with the DSLR I bought so its going to my son who wants one. I bought a Canon PowerShot SX60 HS 16.1 MP Compact Digital... Got it yesterday, got headache now, but it looks good and am sure I will be able to (sometimes) use it off the auto function.

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[cliffanger]

Well @cliffandger I wish you hadn't posted this thread. It prompted me to go buy a new camera for my impending holiday to New York (I'm scared witless BTW) but Les says we are going. I never got to grips with the DSLR I bought so its going to my son who wants one. I bought a Canon PowerShot SX60 HS 16.1 MP Compact Digital... Got it yesterday, got headache now, but it looks good and am sure I will be able to (sometimes) use it off the auto function.

Well done Pat! You'll have a wonderful time in New York and we shall all be expecting brilliant photos of The Empire State Building, Central Park, The Statue of Liberty, Times Square, etc etc etc

 

[magicsurfbus]

You would be wrong.

It's called Rhein II and it's by Andreas Gursky taken in 1999. A print of it sold in 2011 for £2.7 million. No that isn't a typo. Really £2.7million.

So it's a really expensive talentless snapshot then. Could do better.

 

[robnchris]

Hello all,

Could you point me to the most helpful thread on here to find a new camera. I am a complete novice. I have A Panasonic Lumix but have no real idea of what it does. A hopeless case I know. Do I stick with the Lumix and find out how to use it? (This could possibly be by virtual lessons on here.....), or go for something else.

I'm asking because we are off to Rajasthan in January (whoopee!) and I don't think the Lumix will do the photos justice (that could also read I don't think I could do the photos justice.....)!

I would like something that gives me a wide lens with the ability of getting closer than 100 yds away to get it all in and getting a rubbish picture in the process.

If there are beginners lessons on this thread, please point me in that direction and if there aren't - shouldn't there be?

Thanks in anticipation,

Geraldine

Hi Geraldine,

First off stick with the Lumix, 5 million pixels and a Leica lens will produce some very good photos.

Don`t buy a cheaper alternative battery, buy a genuine panasonic battery.

Lot`s on here will say keep in on one of the auto modes, I would go with NickNic on this and suggest you try the manual setting, as previously explained auto settings make decisions for you, whereas on manual you decide which aperture and speed to choose.
Eg, General rule of thumb if you are taking a picture of someone then you really want them in focus and not the back ground so you could choose a large aperture F2.8 giving a small depth of field, conversely when taking a landscape you would want a bigger depth of field so choose F16.
Larger F number smaller in size aperture.
Easy these days with digital cameras, in low light conditions you can just change your ISO setting and that will give you more choice in aperture and speed.

If the above sounds a bit difficult don`t worry, practice with your camera and it`s settings, see what the difference is taking the same framed photo with different settings.

A classic is taking a photo of someone showing head down to waist, first photo at minimum zoom, next photo zoom in to halfway point, you will now have to step back to frame the person the same as the first picture, last picture max (MANUAL ZOOM) again you will have to step back to frame person the same.
Do not use the digital zoom for this.
Copy the photos onto your computer and notice the difference, the back ground will have come in lots closer to your subject but because you moved back with each photo the person is framed the same.
Which photo do you prefer?

Have fun and enjoy.

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[parknride]

Well done Pat! You'll have a wonderful time in New York and we shall all be expecting brilliant photos of The Empire State Building, Central Park, The Statue of Liberty, Times Square, etc etc etc

Ooh no pressure! Will try my best but if I can't remember how to use it manually while there, (going tuesday) i will revert to auto to get some pics. As @robnchris said, while practising today shots done manually are so much better

 

[parknride]

What have you decided to do about your camera?

 

[cliffanger]

Ooh no pressure! Will try my best but if I can't remember how to use it manually while there, (going tuesday) i will revert to auto to get some pics. As @robnchris said, while practising today shots done manually are so much better

That's my problem Pat - I find it difficult to retain things I've been told or learned, so I shall be practising - I have a bit longer to practise than you - we go to India in late January!

Thanks to all for the advice, particularly @vin0114 and @robnchris, I shall be starting my lessons tomorrow!

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[Lenny HB]

Don`t buy a cheaper alternative battery, buy a genuine panasonic battery.

.

I have had cheap batteries from eBay for one of my Lumix's & a Richo, both have outlasted the original batteries.

 

[vin0114]

I have had cheap batteries from eBay for one of my Lumix's & a Richo, both have outlasted the original batteries.

agreed, never ever had a problem with other make battereies at 1/4 the price.

 

[vin0114]

I have had cheap batteries from eBay for one of my Lumix's & a Richo, both have outlasted the original batteries.

agreed, never ever had a problem with other make battereies at 1/4 the price.

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[Deleted member 29692]

So it's a really expensive talentless snapshot then. Could do better.

A lot of people when they first see it say "what's so special about that? I could do that."

The answer is, yes but you didn't

 

[magicsurfbus]

A lot of people when they first see it say "what's so special about that? I could do that."

The answer is, yes but you didn't

A lot of people may say that - personally I wouldn't waste my time either saying it or trying to reproduce that rather dull river picture - I can think of far more interesting things to take photos of. It's only slightly more boring than one of L S Lowry's seascapes and I wouldn't pay a fortune for one of those either. Both Gursky and Lowry have had more creative days. I suspect some silly sod paid a mint for that tedious river picture because Gursky's name was on it and they couldn't afford one of his better snaps.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Gursky works with a medium format film camera, processes and prints his own film, then scans them to digitally manipulate them. The amount of work involved in producing that image is staggering. It isn't point and shoot with a digital camera.

As I said before I don't really like the Rhein picture but I can appreciate what he was trying to achieve and the work involved.

Have a look at another famous one of his, 99c II Diptychon, a snip at a shade over £2 million. Again it's not really my taste but the work involved can't be questioned.

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[Deleted member 29692]

I suspect some silly sod paid a mint for that tedious river picture because Gursky's name was on it and they couldn't afford one of his better snaps.

Of course Gurskys name would have had something to do with the price. You're way off with the second part of your comment though: Rhein II is currently the most expensive photograph ever sold so "one of his better snaps" as you put it would have been cheaper

EDIT: Phantom II by Peter Lik went for more money but that was a digital manipulation of an existing image, not an original so doesn't count.

 

[magicsurfbus]

The most I ever paid for a photograph was 125 Euros on eBay for a printer's proof of the J H Lartigue photo below, which he took in his early teens and didn't manipulate at all. Everything is down to a combination of camera movement, exposure time and shutter mechanism, and speaks volumes of the young man's instinctive photographic genius. The moving car (driven by his dad) appears to lean to the right, yet the spectators and tree trunks appear to lean to the left - the sense of dynamism is fantastic, and it was taken by a kid.

The only authorised source of such prints is the Lartigue Foundation and theirs start at 500 Euros apiece, so considering it was a pressie I reckon I got a bargain. I've always wanted one of his.

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I wouldn't pay 50p at a car boot sale for that Gursky river picture - it tells me nothing other than that it's stretch of water.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

The most I ever paid for a photograph was 125 Euros on eBay for a printer's proof of the J H Lartigue photo below, which he took in his early teens and didn't manipulate at all

It probably was manipulated in the darkroom. Most images are to a greater or lesser extent.

A printers proof is an interesting thing to have, probably more so than an authorised print to collectors of his work

Gursky river picture - it tells me nothing other than that it's stretch of water.

Which I believe is exactly what he intended:

Gursky has said of his work: "I am never interested in the individual, but in the human species and its environment. This is also true of Rhine. I wasn't interested in an unusual, possibly picturesque view of the Rhine, but in the most contemporary possible view of it.

The artist is frank about the fact that the hyper-real effects seen in Rhine II- the silvery water, the manicured perfection of the geometric lines and colour contrasts - are a result of digitised correction.

"Paradoxically, this view of the Rhine cannot be obtained in situ, a fictitious construction was required to provide an accurate image of a modern river."

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