Habitation Electrics with engine running (1 Viewer)

[knokinonabit]

This from the NCC electrical specification-


[FONT=TwCenMT,Bold][FONT=TwCenMT,Bold]4.3.5 [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=TwCenMT,Bold][FONT=TwCenMT,Bold]Electromagnetic Compatibility (Segregation of systems for other reasons)[/FONT][/FONT]​

The Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Regulations 2006 apply to electrical and electronic equipment liable​

to cause electromagnetic disturbance or the performance of which is liable to be affected by such

disturbance. The purpose of the Regulations is to ensure that the electromagnetic disturbance generated by
electrical or electronic equipment does not exceed a level above which radio and telecommunications
equipment and other equipment cannot operate as intended, and that the equipment itself has an adequate
level of immunity to electromagnetic disturbance.
The standards call for the designer of the electrical installation to be aware of possible problems, even
dangers, when two electrical systems or equipments, placed in proximity with each other, are not compatible
‘electromagnetically.’ ​

​

​

[HI]

This can cause one or both systems or equipments to malfunction; and if such a malfunction causes a safety system to not work properly, then the outcome could be a dangerous situation.​

[/HI]

I could be wrong (and I usually am) but that appears to be to do with radio type equipment (I know it says about other stuff) and not specifically to do with motorhomes.
Why would the rest of Europe be able to do it if it was an obvious safety problem, and why would they be allowed to export that safety problem to us?

 

[Ed Excel]

understand the post, but what about aftermarket systems like wireless reversing cameras and many other devises that can be fitted to a chassis cab?

my Adria as i would guess most imported vans have NCC accreditation and the ability to operate 12v habitation electrics while in motion. does than mean the manufacturer has complied with the above? i doubt they have even considered it.

On your first point, EMC is part of our regulations. If you install anything electrical you should consider it, like you would the applicable installation standard. If you don't you're placing yourself in danger. Have a look at some aftermarket stuff and you'll no doubt see it's EMC compliant. If not you should arrange to switch it off when moving.

On continental vans, EMC is incorporated into European standards so the manufacturers should be complying. that can be achieved by switching off the hab electrics or installing EMC compliant equipment.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

And if you use your mobile on a garage forecourt the whole place COULD blow up!
Except we all know it doesn't !

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[Ed Excel]

I could be wrong (and I usually am) but that appears to be to do with radio type equipment (I know it says about other stuff) and not specifically to do with motorhomes.
Why would the rest of Europe be able to do it if it was an obvious safety problem, and why would they be allowed to export that safety problem to us?

The reference to radio frequencies is in regard to electrical noise at those levels of frequency, ie interference travelling through the air. I think you'll only find mention of all the different vehicles the standard applies to in the opening pages.

You have to assume the European manufacturers have dealt with Electro Magnetic Compatibility by providing EMC compliant equipment (which is the most likely) rather than switching the hab power, because EMC requirements are part of Europe standards.

As I said earlier, I think it's a cop out by the UK manufacturers, making their job easier but at our inconvenience.

 

[knokinonabit]

The reference to radio frequencies is in regard to electrical noise at those levels of frequency, ie interference travelling through the air. I think you'll only find mention of all the different vehicles the standard applies to in the opening pages.

You have to assume the European manufacturers have dealt with Electro Magnetic Compatibility by providing EMC compliant equipment (which is the most likely) rather than switching the hab power, because EMC requirements are part of Europe standards.

As I said earlier, I think it's a cop out by the UK manufacturers, making their job easier but at our inconvenience.

I knew I would be wrong

 

[haganap]

And if you use your mobile on a garage forecourt the whole place COULD blow up!
Except we all know it doesn't !

Yep, 20 a day go up in smoke, I've seen it on the news


In fairness to ed, he offered comments on the "alleged cons" as was requested but having done this, I would honestly say that the pros when fitted with a b2b far outweigh the cons.
As for insurance ? I better remove the b2b, the gaslow, the sat system, the Tv the additional insulation, air rides, additional batteries, the remap, go faster sticker, the new hab door, the solar panels, I could go on and on. All are modifications in their own right.

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[TheBig1]

rf interference shouldnt affect the vehicle electronics, as the sensitive parts like the ecu are shielded and grounded to the chassis. for instance, im sure weve all heard interference on the radio in the cab when an old mobile phone received a message whilst in the cab (or a car). never seen a vehicle suddenly become undriveable because this happened. in fact bluetooth hands free is very common now and the noise from that is worse than a cheap unshielded motor being run on a 12v circuit. quite laughable really as the noise signal would have to be powered by quite a substantial current to affect anything, so not much in a motorhome to do that other than maybe a faulty inverter

 

[Ed Excel]

rf interference shouldnt affect the vehicle electronics, as the sensitive parts like the ecu are shielded and grounded to the chassis. for instance, im sure weve all heard interference on the radio in the cab when an old mobile phone received a message whilst in the cab (or a car). never seen a vehicle suddenly become undriveable because this happened. in fact bluetooth hands free is very common now and the noise from that is worse than a cheap unshielded motor being run on a 12v circuit. quite laughable really as the noise signal would have to be powered by quite a substantial current to affect anything, so not much in a motorhome to do that other than maybe a faulty inverter

The regulations don't just apply to rf they are to ensure that the electromagnetic disturbance generated by any electrical or electronic equipment does not exceed a level above which radio and telecommunications equipment and other equipment cannot operate as intended, as a guide to a level of acceptability.

As you've said, the interference most of us experience doesn't normally cause a problem. Have you thought that might be because the manufacturer has ensured it doesn't by considering EMC, in some way, in his design?

 

[knokinonabit]

All getting far to complicated for me now.

All that I want is for my habitation electrics to work when I need them to.
Fairly straightforward, I would have thought, but then, what the heck do I know oh:

Thank you for all of your posts, even if I don't understand the "techy" ones.

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[seanoo]

hi knokinonabit, i've just had a look at my 2007 scout and after unscrewing the sargeant and lifting it out the way there was a red and yellow wire going into a white connector block in the bottom of the case of the sargeant . there were 2 or 3 connector blocks but only one had the yellow/red wire . i have just cut this and now my hab electrics work with the engine running . fridge and step all ok too.

 

[knokinonabit]

hi knokinonabit, i've just had a look at my 2007 scout and after unscrewing the sargeant and lifting it out the way there was a red and yellow wire going into a white connector block in the bottom of the case of the sargeant . there were 2 or 3 connector blocks but only one had the yellow/red wire . i have just cut this and now my hab electrics work with the engine running . fridge and step all ok too.

I will go and have another look and see if I can locate the wire.
If memory serves me there are more than one in that colour scheme.
The screws now don't need a screwdriver, they come out on command.

 

[knokinonabit]

hi knokinonabit, i've just had a look at my 2007 scout and after unscrewing the sargeant and lifting it out the way there was a red and yellow wire going into a white connector block in the bottom of the case of the sargeant . there were 2 or 3 connector blocks but only one had the yellow/red wire . i have just cut this and now my hab electrics work with the engine running . fridge and step all ok too.

I have a lot of red and white cables, a lot of yellow and white cables and quite a few pinkish and white cables, plus any combination of colours you care to name, except........................red and yellow. :Angry:

I am even more convinced that my MH was made out of leftover bits at the end of a production run. Nothing matches the wiring diagram, or indeed, any other Autotrail. :shout:

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[jonandshell]

I've had a look at the Autotrail 2011 wiring diagram and all the info on the Sargent site for the EC500 PSU.
It looks like it senses voltage internally for all its functions. The only Fiat interface appears to be the central locking and a 40 Amp fused cable from the cab battery.
The advice offered, ie cutting the red/yellow cable at the PSU seems only to apply to earlier Autotrails with fridge, split charge and step circuits external to the PSU.
In your case all these circuits are within the PSU.

I really don't think you will be able to achieve your aim.oh:

If it were mine, I'd rip the Sargent system out and retrofit a CBE system which WILL allow your motorhome to function like a Continental one!

Cost? About £500 plus 50hrs Labour!!!

Thank God I can fix our motorhome myself!:thumb:

 

[jonandshell]

Update!

Have you tried ALL your habitation electrics with the engine running?

According to the Sargent info, SOME circuits, ie en-route heating and some of the lighting SHOULD still be operational with the engine running.

Whether it was wired up right to achieve this is a different story....................

Link Removed

 

[jonandshell]

Or you could try the blue wire between the EM40 interface and the PSU!
Its the ignition input to the PSU.

Pin number 5 on the 6 pin white plug!

Alternatively, the blue Fiat wire at the B Pillar is the ign feed to this.

It MIGHT just do it!!!!!

Link Removed

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[Ed Excel]

I've had a look at the Autotrail 2011 wiring diagram and all the info on the Sargent site for the EC500 PSU.
It looks like it senses voltage internally for all its functions. The only Fiat interface appears to be the central locking and a 40 Amp fused cable from the cab battery.
The advice offered, ie cutting the red/yellow cable at the PSU seems only to apply to earlier Autotrails with fridge, split charge and step circuits external to the PSU.
In your case all these circuits are within the PSU.

I really don't think you will be able to achieve your aim.oh:

If it were mine, I'd rip the Sargent system out and retrofit a CBE system which WILL allow your motorhome to function like a Continental one!

Cost? About £500 plus 50hrs Labour!!!

Thank God I can fix our motorhome myself!:thumb:

Changing the consumer unit won't make the electrical equipment in a UK manufactured MH comply with EMC regulations!

Isn't it simpler to make the power go off? Exactly why UK vans are set up like this.

 

[jonandshell]

Changing the consumer unit won't make the electrical equipment in a UK manufactured MH comply with EMC regulations!

Isn't it simpler to make the power go off? Exactly why UK vans are set up like this.

No, it's simpler to keep the power on, have warm kids in the back, lights they can see by and a working loo!

Stupid idea!!!!!!

Look! Our motorhome doesn't go careering out of control whenever someone turns on a light and neither did our 2006 ELDDIS Autocirrus.
The Autocirrus had CBE electrics. Keeping the habitation electrics on required the removal of a 2 Amp fuse! This was in the instructions too!

 

[jonandshell]

The Elddis was NCC approved!!!!!

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[haganap]

The Elddis was NCC approved!!!!!

No Elddis should meet the criteria for the NCC approval

 

[Ed Excel]

No, it's simpler to keep the power on, have warm kids in the back, lights they can see by and a working loo!

Stupid idea!!!!!!

Look! Our motorhome doesn't go careering out of control whenever someone turns on a light and neither did our 2006 ELDDIS Autocirrus.
The Autocirrus had CBE electrics. Keeping the habitation electrics on required the removal of a 2 Amp fuse! This was in the instructions too!

I agree, it's a bad solution by UK manufacturers.

You may not have experienced a problem, yet. The issue is the same with any safety arrangements, they don't do anything until there IS a problem. If you feel confident that nothing will go wrong you could take out your circuit breakers, for example.

 

[jonandshell]

No Elddis should meet the criteria for the NCC approval

I reckon Elddis didn't tell the NCC about he secret fuse!!!t

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[knokinonabit]

Update!

Have you tried ALL your habitation electrics with the engine running?

According to the Sargent info, SOME circuits, ie en-route heating and some of the lighting SHOULD still be operational with the engine running.

Whether it was wired up right to achieve this is a different story....................

Link Removed

As soon as the engine starts it kills all of the hab electrics by turning off the whole hab system.

Or you could try the blue wire between the EM40 interface and the PSU!
Its the ignition input to the PSU.

Pin number 5 on the 6 pin white plug!

Alternatively, the blue Fiat wire at the B Pillar is the ign feed to this.

It MIGHT just do it!!!!!

Link Removed

I think that if I cut anymore wires I will have to have the MH re-wired anyway.
If, as you say, everything is controlled inside the PSU, it looks like they have seen what I am trying to do, with other MH owners, and taken steps (no pun intended) to ensure it can't be done, or at least, not easily done.

Oh well, it was just a thought anyway. Would be good if I could make it happen, but it looks like I will have to live without it.

Alternatively, I am going away tomorrow and can have another go next week.

 

[knokinonabit]

Or you could try the blue wire between the EM40 interface and the PSU!
Its the ignition input to the PSU.

Pin number 5 on the 6 pin white plug!

Alternatively, the blue Fiat wire at the B Pillar is the ign feed to this.

It MIGHT just do it!!!!!

Link Removed

Having had a careful look at the diagram and a bit of a think, I think the same as you. Pin number five on the white plug is possibly the way forward.
My only doubt is that it will cut off the signal to the other components that are routed through that plug, ie central locking.

Never mind. Next week will tell, unless someone comes on and says it won't work because......................

 

[autotrailscoutman]

I know this was last year but did anyone get any success here? ...Was the pin number 5 on the white plug a success??
I also have a Sergent EC500 on an Auto Trail Scout 2013 model and I have been from forum to forum about this but no results!!
Help...I am melting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve.

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[knokinonabit]

I know this was last year but did anyone get any success here? ...Was the pin number 5 on the white plug a success??
I also have a Sergent EC500 on an Auto Trail Scout 2013 model and I have been from forum to forum about this but no results!!
Help...I am melting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve.

I have had such a topsy turvy year that I never pursued it.
Spookily though, yesterday I was thinking that I would get it done.
When I was trying before I think I tripped out the tracker in some way (cut the power ?) and this required that it was reset, so I am a little apprehensive.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to keep us both right



.

 

[autotrailscoutman]

Hi.
I just jet-washed my camper but I think I may have got water on thru the vents onto the back of the fridge. It was working before! Fridge is a Thetford Fridge N3175. I have an Autotrail Scout 2013. Any ideas what has gone wrong or how to fix it?
Steve.

 

[knokinonabit]

Hi.
I just jet-washed my camper but I think I may have got water on thru the vents onto the back of the fridge. It was working before! Fridge is a Thetford Fridge N3175. I have an Autotrail Scout 2013. Any ideas what has gone wrong or how to fix it?
Steve.

You should re-post this question on the TECHNICAL forum and then someone will see it and help out.
It will get lost on here.

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[TheBig1]

Hi.
I just jet-washed my camper but I think I may have got water on thru the vents onto the back of the fridge. It was working before! Fridge is a Thetford Fridge N3175. I have an Autotrail Scout 2013. Any ideas what has gone wrong or how to fix it?
Steve.

most likely shorted out the electrics and blown the control board