GTW query

Discussion in 'Fifth Wheelers' started by PaulJaq, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. PaulJaq

    PaulJaq Read Only Funster

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    Hi,

    Me newbie again.

    Have seen loads of info. on GTW etc.

    Simple question - so long as we don't exceed the tow trucks GTW - weigh of 5th wheeler and truck c/w people (I have heard excluding the driver weight for some reason) and all the c**p we carry, then I'm legal??

    Or does the weight transmitted down from the 5th wheeler axles have to be within the trucks max permissible towing weight also, in which case load up the truck and keep weight off the axles???

    I know all about the licence issues; I'm pre 1996 and can go up to 8250KG GTW.

    Cheers Paul
     
  2. Phill D

    Phill D

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    As i understand things, axle weights should be within that stated for 1. The tow vwhicle , 2. The towed vehicle, independantly, both are seperate calculations. I guess that also includes the weight on the 5th wheel or tow hitch.:thumb:
     
  3. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    the pin loading should be equal to, or less than, the pickups rear axle maximum weight unless, as VWAlan keeps pointing out, you have a mini artic which should have at least 20% of the trailers gross weight imposed on the pin...if the pickup is capable of carrying such weight.
     
  4. chatter

    chatter Read Only Funster

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    I have a lightweight 5th wheel towed with an Isuzu, and the whole outfit including everything you carry must not exceed what is stamped on your plate allowances for the truck.
    So mine is
    truck gross weight is 5950kg
    net truck weight is 2950 which includes the payload in the back of 1075
    and my towing weight is 3000 and i have a useable total weight of 4075
    Weighed mine on Monday and the truck with 5ver plus all the stuff i carry in it came to 5080, leaving me 870kg to play with. Technically the gross weight of the 5ver must be within the train weight of the truck - so my 5ver has a gross of 3000kg on its plate which i had down-rated from 3160kg. This is because Vosa will fine you on a technicality if the weights dont comply even if when weighed you are within your permitted gross train weight

    now you say you are new to this so here is what could be the bad bit
    I asume that you are pulling with an american truck and a lot of them do not have a train weight allowance when imported (the americans dont plate the same as us), if it hasnt got a train weight stamped on it then it is not allowed to pull anything as far as Vosa is concerned. The 5ver must have a proper handbrake fitted as well.
     
  5. matamoros

    matamoros Funster

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    Most VOSA weighings now take place on dynamic axle weighbridges(drive very slowly over a plate) so each individual axle is weighed.In my experience the axle weights will be compared to the plated values then the axle weights for the towing vehicle will be added together to compare with the plated Gross Vehicle Weight of the towing vehicle and all the axle weights totalled to compare with the plated train weight of the towing vehicle.

    I would not have thought it necessary to downplate a trailer so that the plated GVW weights of the two vehicles added together is less than the Max train weight of the towing vehicle.

    My pickup has a GVW of 3030k and a max train weight of 6030k, the GVW of the trailer is 3500k. This gives a combined theoretical GVW of 6530k which is obviously more than the max train weight, this is legal as long as the axle weights, train weight and GVW of the towing vehicle are within the limits.

    But in the words of every VOSA or DVLA document:-

    NOTE: The information in this document is a summary of the Department’s understanding of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek independent advice.:BigGrin:
     
  6. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    hi the silly thing is you arent restricted to 8250kg gtw. if the towing vehicle has a gvw of less than 3,500kg but a high gtw you can pull to the gtw of the towing vehicle . its possible to have a train weight of 11ton very easily these days .
    because the tow truck is under 3,500kg you wouldnt need a medical ay 70 yr old .
    lots of companies are down plating vehicles to 3,500kg and using the higher train weights .
    yes pre 97 licences allow this on the b+e category.
    there are loads of iveco daily,s out there .plus isuzu and mitsubishi .
    heresa good info item
    http://intranet.guests.co.uk/specif.../Specs/DAILY/Drive Away/Iveco/Daily Artic.pdf
    i have built a few of these .they are ideal .the double cab versions are excellant and like mine carry 7 people.
    as most 5ers dont actually put alot on the pin they are superb for full seating .
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  7. PaulJaq

    PaulJaq Read Only Funster

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    Summary of info. on GTW

    Hi All,

    Thanks for the info.

    The way I see it (I could be, and probably are, wrong), is we must not be over the GTW for our tow truck, that is the weight on the axles (at the time of weighing whatvever the 5th wheel plates say - you can tow a heavy car trailer with 50KG or a heavy caravan with nothing in it! so long as you are not over the towing capacity for the tow car) of the 5th wheeler plus the hitch weight at the time of weighing plus the kerb weight of the truck.

    Or put it another way, at the time of weighing the weight on the 3 sets of axles - the 5th wheelers, the back axle or the truck and the front axle of the truck must not be over the GTW for the truck.

    Also maybe at the time of weighing the weight on the 5th wheelers axles must not be more than the towing capacity of the truck.

    We have not bought a tow truck yet but are looking at either an Isuzu 3 litre auto with a GTW of 5950KG and towing limit of 3000KG and a kerb weight of 1900KG giving a spare capacity of 4050KG.

    The cougar 5th wheeler is 3311KG giving me about 639KG for the load - clothes, gas, hitch, people etc. it will be close but I think it will be OK! Also the weight on the axles will be 3311 minus the hitch weight of 702KG = 2609KG which is within the 3000KG for the rodeo allowing for 391KG of load on the alxes (bearing in mind some of the 639KG will be imposed on the hitch / truck).

    I need to work out if I'm within the 20% of the gross loaded weight - if you took the 5th wheeler loaded and put it on the weighbridge is 20% of it's loaded weight (max 4050KG in the case of the Rodeo) on the hitch to make sure it is defined as an artic to take advantage of the GTW regs! That means the hitch weight would have to be 4050 / 5 = 810KG - only 108KG more than the unladen hitch weight - so shouldn't be a problem as 108KG of the 639KG carrying capacity should be on the hitch. My maths brain is on overdrive.

    If VOSA only have individual axle weigh scales how can the calculate the laden hitch weight to confirm the 810KG figure in my case? We would have to put a prop under the hitch and unhitch before!! As the hitched truck rear axle weight would include the weight of the truck!!!

    As for can a rodeo tow that GTW OK. It would have about 170 - 180BHP but more importantly 400ft/lb torque (after tuning chip), so should be OK in that respect. Also I once used a manual hi lux 2002 with much less power and torque to collect about 2T of logs in the back and pull a flat bed trailer weighing about 1T with about 6T of logs. So about 9T GTW, it pulled it no problem - on private estates road of course.

    We would like a 2WD Dodge 5.7 hemi with LPG, but budget, size to get into our drive, MPG, SVA and plating issues, traction on grass are all worries.

    Don't fancy a replated Navara due to bad engine history and cost unless the later D40 engines don't have the same problems??

    Anyone any views on the above and Dodge or Izusu, bearing in mind the wife is for going her lovely Qashqai for a truck and will use the truck for daily transport - so mini artics would not be good to turn up at the primary school where she works!! The kids would like the dodge though!

    Cheers Paul
     
  8. matamoros

    matamoros Funster

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    As far as I am aware the 20% pin weight only relates to an outdated* definition of an 'articulated' vehicle and has no practical relevance as regards train weights, axle weights etc but if you want to be certain ask someone at VOSA. In my experience of being weighed by VOSA in commercial vehicles I have only ever been asked to drop a trailer to be weighed on the old type plate weighbridges and then only if the bridge was too short to fit on all the axles. It would be time consuming to ascertain the pin weight on any type of weighbridge and VOSA are happy if you are within plated axle weights, GVW and GTW.

    * The 20% definition was brought in when fifth wheel articulated vehicles started replacing 'wagon & drags' ie rigid vehicles pulling four wheel trailers with a rotating front axle which imposed no load on the towing vehicle.At one time this was the preferred method for heavy haulage until C&U regulations were altered to allow more weight to be carried on articulated semi trailers.Like lots of legislation in this country no one has bothered to update, another is the legislation still in force using the unladen weight of a vehicle when all modern legislation is based on the max loaded weight. I stand open to correction from more knowledgable funsters :BigGrin:
     
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  9. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    yes both right kind of . the 20%is what defines an artic . but even so you can stil use all the trainweight .
    i lower 7,500kg trucks to 3,500kg .that way they can use the full train weight of 11 ton in the isuzu .mitzy world . most single cabs are coming out with the fifth wheel on all ready to go at about 2,650kg kerb weight . this allows a good 500kg on the pin and a train of 11,.000kg .
    when the rules were made they never knew light weight trucks would be in use in a few years time .
    i realise many dont fancy the looks of mini artics but they do work well . yes in wet grass ,slimey mud not so good . i often consider putting a 4x4 mitsubishi canter under my trailer . or an iveco daily 4x4 . would be a real go anywhere (almost )vehicle . yet still be able to be driven on a b+e licence if need be . mind i would have to move my trailer axles forward to take weight off the pin .
     

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