Gas Bottle

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by Barclaybasher, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. Barclaybasher

    Barclaybasher Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Likes Received:
    7,108
    Location:
    Derby
    My 'new' van uses a Calor 4.5kg gas bottle, in its own locker.

    The only way that I could carry a spare bottle is with it lying down in another locker or carry it in the hab area.

    Calor say that bottles should be carried upright - would it be safe to carry it on its side?
     
  2. tonka

    tonka Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    5,337
    Likes Received:
    7,594
    Location:
    Cannock, Staffs or Benidorm, spain
    I think you have answered your own question there....:doh:

    "Calor say that bottles should be carried upright"..... I know people do carry them on their side but I have also read on forums as the the reasons you should not.....Can't remember why without looking it all up again..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. sb8263

    sb8263 Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    331
    Location:
    leeds
    says you can carry on the side but must stand up a while before you connect to a regulator to allow bottle to settle again.....so you wouldnt be able to connect straight away if other run out...
     
  4. Barclaybasher

    Barclaybasher Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Likes Received:
    7,108
    Location:
    Derby
    (y) Thanks ! now which one is it ? (y)(y)(y):D:D
     
  5. sb8263

    sb8263 Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    331
    Location:
    leeds
    this is a post from another forum....

    just spoken to my friend up the road, Mr Gas ........ he is a manager for BOC.

    Bottles should always be transported vertically as the value on the top of the bottle is set for gas pressure and not liquid (which is normally present in the lower portion of the bottle)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. AuldCodger

    AuldCodger Read Only Funster

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    126
    Location:
    ?
    Gas bottles can sure be nasty wee devils -
    Probably about half way through before the action really kicks off.
    My apologies if this clip has already done the rounds and also to the op as this is of no help whatsoever :)
     
  7. DuxDeluxe

    DuxDeluxe Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    9,360
    Likes Received:
    25,108
    Location:
    Planet Zog
    The pressure will be the same throughout the bottle......... unless something has changed.....
     
  8. Barclaybasher

    Barclaybasher Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Likes Received:
    7,108
    Location:
    Derby
    Understand....... but would have thought that a valve designed for gas would be safer when used for liquid (bottle lying on its side)

    Thanks everyone for your interest

    Just need to know if it is safe to carry the bottle secured on its side with padding/protection
     
  9. johnp10

    johnp10 Funster

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    7,642
    Likes Received:
    14,214
    Location:
    North Lincolnshire
    We've been here in the past.
    Valves on LPG cylinders are designed to contain a gas, not a liquid.
    The gas in liquid form can attack and damage the valve, making it unsafe.
    By carrying the cylinder upright, the valve is containing pressure in a gas space, not in contact with the liquid.
    Carrying them laid down is not just unsafe, it's downright dangerous.
    Any gas company or MSDS for LPG will tell you that.
    Before we get the usual "yes, but..." posts, the ones used on fork lifts etc. have different valve work altogether.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Barclaybasher

    Barclaybasher Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Likes Received:
    7,108
    Location:
    Derby
    Thanks, yes I have just read pages of info, the safety valve (red plug) behind the valve operates to release gas - when the bottle is heated, and might not work covered by liquid gas - didn't read about it being attacked by the liquid though.

    It seems in use however that bottles have been carried lying flat by campers, tradesmen, for many years without any problem. It should be stood upright for a period before use.

    The major problem for fire services attending vehicle fires is not knowing if gas canisters are present - the bottle standing up or lying down would pose the same danger.

    I cannot fit a spare bottle upright in any locker so either : I don't carry a spare (only 4.5kg on board); lay it flat in an outside locker or carry it in the hab area.

    None of these are ideal but I have to make a choice
     
  11. timdownieuk

    timdownieuk Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    326
    Location:
    Ayr
    There seems to be an awful lot of b*llsh*t being said about the hazards of horizontal cylinders.

    I do not believe for one moment that valves designed for gas are "attacked" by liquid gas. It would be bl**dy poor design to use anything in a gas valve that couldn't tolerate contact with liquid gas.

    Liquid gas is very runny and does not need time to settle either. Certainly no more time that a carton of milk takes before opening. There's a small chance of a small quantity of liquid gas trapped near the valve entering the pipework but it will vapourise long before reaching your cooker or fridge. (Unlike a blowtorch where the short distance can cause flaring).

    The main reason not to carry a cylinder horizontally is that if there *is* a leak, it will be of liquid gas which will rapidly expand into a much larger volume.

    So, for this reason, not a good idea but not for any of the other reasons given.

    Personally, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over carrying a horizontal one in an external locker as long as it was very well secured.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. OldAgeTravellers

    OldAgeTravellers Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2014
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Languedoc, France
    And the locker must be vented. Few lockers except the gas locker have gas drops in them so you may have to construct a sealed but vented locker within the locker. Why not investigate an underslung gas tank. I really can't understand a manufacturer designing a van without properly thinking out the gas bottle storage.
    Steve
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Barclaybasher

    Barclaybasher Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Likes Received:
    7,108
    Location:
    Derby
    Fitting a refillable tank might be an option. The gas locker itself is only just big enough for a Calor 4,5kg bottle but the locker has a 10" deep, vented space below it (the bottle itself sits on a removable shelf). The van is 23 years old (Hymer Eriba) and may have been built for different gas bottles with a spare stored below shelf - but it's too small for the Calor bottle to stand upright but might just fit lying down
     
  14. johnp10

    johnp10 Funster

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    7,642
    Likes Received:
    14,214
    Location:
    North Lincolnshire
    Lying LPG cylinders down is dangerous, that's why the gas companies advise against it.
    Don't convince yourself it's ok just for convenience, it's not.
    As timdownieuk has shown, lots of bullshit advice on this issue.
    Also good advice.
    If a valve leaks, the release will be of gas.
    As soon as the pressure is released, the LPG boils back to a gas almost immediately, creating large amounts of explosive gas / air mixture.
    Little is needed, only 2.1% gas by volume in the gas / air mix is required to create an explosive mix.
    This will happen in the event of valve failure in whatever orientation.
    The issue is the purpose of the valve, which is to contain the substance as a gas, not a liquid.
    Why don't you simply ask a gas company for official advice?

    Fitting a refillable tank is your best, safest, option.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. OldAgeTravellers

    OldAgeTravellers Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2014
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Languedoc, France
    Could you not take the shelf out and fit an 11kg or a gaslow or equivalent.
    Steve
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. tonyidle

    tonyidle Funster

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,874
    Likes Received:
    2,696
    Location:
    Kendal, Cumbria
     
  17. tonyidle

    tonyidle Funster

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,874
    Likes Received:
    2,696
    Location:
    Kendal, Cumbria
    The reason for the advice to carry bottles upright is simple: if the bottle is upright a leaking valve (whether not fully closed or faulty) will discharge vapour (gas); if the bottle is lying on its side under the same circumstances it will discharge liquid. Put simply 2cc (for example) of leaked gas will dissipate quickly and, in most circumstances, cause little danger. A 2cc of leaked liquid turns into 540cc of gas - in most circumstances very much more dangerous.
     
  18. johnp10

    johnp10 Funster

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    7,642
    Likes Received:
    14,214
    Location:
    North Lincolnshire
    So, in summary.....it's dangerous?
     
  19. OldAgeTravellers

    OldAgeTravellers Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2014
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Languedoc, France
    It depends upon your level of "Elf-n-Safety" In Morocco very big trucks travel around all the time fully laden with gas bottles on their sides so as to get the maximum stacking density and I have never heard of one exploding, with about a hundred or so gas cylinders on board we would probably have heard it from here! And they travel in full Moroccan sun. OK they do have a lower fill level usually but only slightly although I did get one once that was so full it was putting out liquid gas, I had to vent it for about three minutes before I could use it!!
    Hence my advice above for a sealed but vented locker.
    "Elf-n-Safety" in the UK does tend to go over the top to avoid litigation from plonkers like the ones who fill ordinary gas bottles at LPG stations with adaptors from FleaBay.
    All in all the best solution for the OP is to get a tank fitted and keep the little one as backup.
    Steve
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. timdownieuk

    timdownieuk Funster

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    326
    Location:
    Ayr
    Nothing's black and white. Nothing is entirely safe. Carrying a cylinder on its side is less safe than carrying it upright.

    How much less safe is the question and how much risk are you comfortable with? Given the design of the shielding around the valve the risk of it opening in transit is minimal if you take any sort of care to secure it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...

Share This Page