Fiat fuel filter leaking...AGAIN Oh Please! (1 Viewer)

injebreck99

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Arrived home from MOT station today, smelt diesel, lifted bonnet, bla**y fuel filter leaking again, this is the 4th time in 3 years of ownership, the last time it was looked at by a Fiat dealer, it already had a new genuine filter and seal fitted last June, now leaking again!.
I bought a Taylormade bike cover from a fellow funster last weekend, and he was showing us around his new AT Tracker, (lucky sod), I mentioned the perennial filter leak problem, we looked under the bonnet of his new M/H, lo and behold, a new type of filter, a metal canister one now it seems, I wonder if they can be swopped to my 09 model.:Doh:
 

beachcaster

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Mine went on me .and I fitted a new one....correctly to the right torque etc.
They are a rubbish plastic design that is hardly fit for purpose.

When my 2009 auto trail goes in for a service I tell the garage NOT to go anywhere near it and to leave it alone.

barry
 

jhorsf

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I have not had my 09 changed they are told leave it alone

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DuxDeluxe

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Same here. I got the purpose built cage for torquing it up - future son in law (head technician for local Ford dealership) fixed it after Fiat (alleged) professional made it leak twice and nobody else touches it ........
 

Techno

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There is such a shadow of doubt cast over this subject but I am convinced that the filter housing is fit for purpose as designed if it is treated with respect. It is apparent that some garages are known (even Fiat ones) not to have or use the appropriate tools for this job.
I carry a spare just in case my mouth is too big :roflmto: but in time I feel sure I'll prove myself correct.
Sorry yours has suffered again
FOUR times? have you kept a note of who what where and when? all the same garage/different mechanics etc. No consolation that you might have a warranty for the part if it was the labour that stuffed it up.

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injebreck99

injebreck99

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There is such a shadow of doubt cast over this subject but I am convinced that the filter housing is fit for purpose as designed if it is treated with respect. It is apparent that some garages are known (even Fiat ones) not to have or use the appropriate tools for this job.
I carry a spare just in case my mouth is too big :roflmto: but in time I feel sure I'll prove myself correct.
Sorry yours has suffered again
FOUR times? have you kept a note of who what where and when? all the same garage/different mechanics etc. No consolation that you might have a [HI]warranty for the part if it was the labour that stuffed it up.[/QUOTE[/HI]]

It was done by a Fiat garage last June, so I doubt if I will have any luck with a claim against them, I would like to change to the newest type filter if possible.
 

Techno

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Have you considered just fitting a complete new original filter housing with filter element installed? this will cost £115 or less and you only need a posidrive screwdriver to swap it.
Problems only arise with this unit after an element has been renewed.
I've no idea if you can change your filter to a canister type but it would be good for the members if you can find out and report back.

I don't know if you've seen my guide? but if not you'll gain some insight at least.
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Dec 30, 2008
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I have posted this before, its not going to be a cure, but mine let me down in Germany in june 2012, i bought a new filter with seal and fitted it, my friend held the filter body while i tightend the top by hand, it is still running trouble free, so i think its the luck of the draw, could be the seals, some fit some dont,



Eric:thumb:

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injebreck99

injebreck99

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Have you considered just fitting a complete new original filter housing with filter element installed? this will cost £115 or less and you only need a posidrive screwdriver to swap it.
Problems only arise with this unit after an element has been renewed.
I've no idea if you can change your filter to a canister type but it would be good for the members if you can find out and report back.

I don't know if you've seen my guide? but if not you'll gain some insight at least.
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I am in touch with Fiat to see if the change of filter is possible, I will let everybody know of the results.
 

DuxDeluxe

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I have posted this before, its not going to be a cure, but mine let me down in Germany in june 2012, i bought a new filter with seal and fitted it, my friend held the filter body while i tightend the top by hand, it is still running trouble free, so i think its the luck of the draw, could be the seals, some fit some dont,



Eric:thumb:

The torque recommended for tightening is very high for a plastic canister, which is why you need the cage device to tighten without damaging it. The seal itself is rather small which is a surprise. I suspect that our Fiat (alleged) Professional garage didn't bother. Once the future son in law did it using the device and the correct torque there were no problems. It is about £16 off eBay.

Very poor bit of design and it looks like new ones are much better
 

dave newell

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I had a couple leak before I invested in the cage tool and none since. I do use a torque meter to tighten the top ring to specified 35nm.

D.

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injebreck99

injebreck99

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The torque recommended for tightening is very high for a plastic canister, which is why you need the cage device to tighten without damaging it. The seal itself is rather small which is a surprise. I suspect that our Fiat (alleged) Professional garage didn't bother. Once the future son in law did it using the device and the correct torque there were no problems. It is about £16 off eBay.

Very poor bit of design and it looks like new ones are much better

I agree that to make this housing out of plastic is ludicrous, but Istill think that the seal is the culprit, it is too thin and is not compressed enough to give a reliable seal.
Has anybody bought one from Opie oils, the link was in a previous post, cannot be any worse than the Fiat item, this ongoing problem is destroying my enjoyment of owning this M/H. :cry:
 

Geo

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The tool is now a very low £16.70 I paid over £34 :Doh::cry:
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Genuine questions no hidden agendas and i dont intend to pursue any arguments on the replies just simple answers please

The Tool

Is the tool sold by Fiat
Is the tool Fiat approved
Is the use of the tool approved by Fiat

The torque setting
Is the setting set by Fiat
is the setting approved by Fiat
If all the answers are yes please point me to the data and fiats part No for the tool
My local Fiat dealer says he's never heard of it wich might go someway to explaining why most Fiat Garages dont use it:RollEyes:

If the answers are No ---- Who did all the approvals and torque figures, Who makes the tool
I see Dave Uses the tool with some measure of success :Cool:
And if all is Fiat approved I will get the Fiat version not the ebay variety see below for reasons

In order to protect our selves from the blame and claims departments we have to demonstrate due diligence, and use of correct tools,and procedure Im envisaging a claim for new filter housing and associated pipework should a failure result from using this device because deviation from approved methods is also called negligence, and I can see one slip costing more than the job is worth, could we see a reluctance from garages to carry out fuel filter changes due to the negative reports seen on forums, leaving the job to the owners
As strange as it seems using nothing may well find me protected, using unapproved methods will sink me for sure.

What say you? who clearly blame both independent and Fiat Garages alike for their fitters incompetence in this issue, but never the filter designers or manufacturers to any great degree
These are all serious observations
Who is to blame, What is the correct approved procedure,
Geo
We cant all be to blame surely and the only good fitter out there are Diy'ers

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beachcaster

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Genuine questions no hidden agendas and i dont intend to pursue any arguments on the replies just simple answers please

The Tool

Is the tool sold by Fiat
Is the tool Fiat approved
Is the use of the tool approved by Fiat

The torque setting
Is the setting set by Fiat
is the setting approved by Fiat
If all the answers are yes please point me to the data and fiats part No for the tool
My local Fiat dealer says he's never heard of it wich might go someway to explaining why most Fiat Garages dont use it:RollEyes:

If the answers are No ---- Who did all the approvals and torque figures, Who makes the tool
I see Dave Uses the tool with some measure of success :Cool:
And if all is Fiat approved I will get the Fiat version not the ebay variety see below for reasons

In order to protect our selves from the blame and claims departments we have to demonstrate due diligence, and use of correct tools,and procedure Im envisaging a claim for new filter housing and associated pipework should a failure result from using this device because deviation from approved methods is also called negligence, and I can see one slip costing more than the job is worth, could we see a reluctance from garages to carry out fuel filter changes due to the negative reports seen on forums, leaving the job to the owners
As strange as it seems using nothing may well find me protected, using unapproved methods will sink me for sure.

What say you? who clearly blame both independent and Fiat Garages alike for their fitters incompetence in this issue, but never the filter designers or manufacturers to any great degree
These are all serious observations
Who is to blame, What is the correct approved procedure,
Geo
We cant all be to blame surely and the only good fitter out there are Diy'ers

When I asked my independent ( commercial) fiat dealer if he used this tool he said no. He went on to explain they had been in business for many years and knew what they were doing. This is probably true ....but what happens when you get the new boy servicing your vehicle ? That is why I give him instructions in writing on each service to leave it alone.
The parts are genuine fiat...the instructions are as far as I remember on the filter and certainly on or with the packaging.
It is crap design.........over complex and plastic...it is also far too expensive.

barry
 

DuxDeluxe

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Geo raises a good point, so we are lucky in that we do it ourselves without any potential liability issues.

However, surely it is demonstrating due diligence by using a device that evens the load on the cartridge preventing possible hidden fracturing and future failure and fire risk due to the same, and also one that facilitates tightening to the correct torque setting whilst minimising the scope for error. Just a simplistic point of view, fiat part or not.

Don't want to cause any arguments as Geo has to look very closely at liability and possible legal exposure at every turn and it is right to be cautious in these litigious days.

It ain't leaked since we used this device, though
 

Techno

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I don't think the tool is fiats but the filter housing manufacturers UFI's
The data sheet posted as a bulletin as been posted in threads on more than one occasion. If fiat don't recognise this more fool them

EDIT the Fiat service course manual clearly shows a similar device which protects the filter housing in a vice. It doesn't show a large pair of pipe grips :roflmto:

filter%20a-L.png

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Hi Peter.. ( Injebreck ) I am the funster you got the 'Taylormade' from... SO sorry to hear that the fuel filter is leaking yet again... I would be very tempted to see what the bosch unit costs and swap the lot.... But easy for me to say I know... I would also check that all the electrical and pipe connections are the same, or warning light systems may malfunction.!
They ARE Italian after all !!! Good luck mate... DONT let this spoil your enjoyment from your van... We have both had to solve mechanical problems all our working lives for OTHER people, but for ourselves, its always a bit harder.. The "****** in the woodpile" is FIAT, who have known about this sh*t filter for years.!!! Good luck mate, if you want me to try and find a part No from mine, give me a 'bell'.. Mitch.. PS.. Peter it seems reading on other forums that when the new and old filter SEAL are compared, that the old one is always 'larger' than the new. !!! This would indicate to me, that the rubber is not made of the correct grade and is deteriorating and distorting in contact with the fuel..!!! Just a thought mate !!!

Good luck...
 
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DP+JAY

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Genuine questions no hidden agendas and i dont intend to pursue any arguments on the replies just simple answers please

The Tool

Is the tool sold by Fiat
Is the tool Fiat approved
Is the use of the tool approved by Fiat

The torque setting
Is the setting set by Fiat
is the setting approved by Fiat
If all the answers are yes please point me to the data and fiats part No for the tool
My local Fiat dealer says he's never heard of it wich might go someway to explaining why most Fiat Garages dont use it:RollEyes:

If the answers are No ---- Who did all the approvals and torque figures, Who makes the tool
I see Dave Uses the tool with some measure of success :Cool:
And if all is Fiat approved I will get the Fiat version not the ebay variety see below for reasons

So what you would have us believe is that you only use genuine parts & that every spanner or tool you use is approved by the vehicle manufacturer?:Eeek:
 
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injebreck99

injebreck99

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Hi Peter.. ( Injebreck ) I am the funster you got the 'Taylormade' from... SO sorry to hear that the fuel filter is leaking yet again... I would be very tempted to see what the bosch unit costs and swap the lot.... But easy for me to say I know... I would also check that all the electrical and pipe connections are the same, or warning light systems may malfunction.!
They ARE Italian after all !!! Good luck mate... DONT let this spoil your enjoyment from your van... We have both had to solve mechanical problems all our working lives for OTHER people, but for ourselves, its always a bit harder.. The "****** in the woodpile" is FIAT, who have known about this sh*t filter for years.!!! Good luck mate, if you want me to try and find a part No from mine, give me a 'bell'.. Mitch.. PS.. Peter it seems reading on other forums that when the new and old filter SEAL are compared, that the old one is always 'larger' than the new. !!! This would indicate to me, that the rubber is not made of the correct grade and is deteriorating and distorting in contact with the fuel..!!! Just a thought mate !!!

Good luck...

I may have to sneak round to your place and purloin yours!! :ROFLMAO:

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TheBig1

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Hi Peter.. ( Injebreck ) I am the funster you got the 'Taylormade' from... SO sorry to hear that the fuel filter is leaking yet again... I would be very tempted to see what the bosch unit costs and swap the lot.... But easy for me to say I know... I would also check that all the electrical and pipe connections are the same, or warning light systems may malfunction.!
They ARE Italian after all !!! Good luck mate... DONT let this spoil your enjoyment from your van... We have both had to solve mechanical problems all our working lives for OTHER people, but for ourselves, its always a bit harder.. [HI]The "****** in the woodpile" [/HI]is FIAT, who have known about this sh*t filter for years.!!! Good luck mate, if you want me to try and find a part No from mine, give me a 'bell'.. Mitch.. PS.. Peter it seems reading on other forums that when the new and old filter SEAL are compared, that the old one is always 'larger' than the new. !!! This would indicate to me, that the rubber is not made of the correct grade and is deteriorating and distorting in contact with the fuel..!!! Just a thought mate !!!

Good luck...
rather an un-pc term to use these days:Eeek:

I agree with Andy, the FIAT manual (on disc) shows a cage being used from memory but i dont recall them specifying which one to use. the same filter is fitted to other vehicles, so what do their manufacturers specify I wonder
 

Techno

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Note also that the pic I posted clearly identifies a tool part number so how can fiat service have no knowledge of it . No knowledge is the problem. Also as you say this filter and its slight variations fits very many vehicles so it makes sense that the housing manufacturer is responsible for the correct tool rather than a vehicle builder
 

Techno

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Here is the tool bulletin as a refresher
"Blue Print’s Fuel Filter Removal Tool, ADK85502, is an OE
developed tool that makes replacement of the fuel filter element
on vehicles fitted with the JTD type engine a much quicker and
easier job and, most importantly, greatly reduces the risk of
damage to the intricate and expensive plastic filter housing or
fastening ring"

http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/ADK85502.pdf

filter%20diesel-M.png


The torque setting is moulded into the case of the filter housing locking ring so nothing to do with Fiat but the filter housing manufacturer.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest many garages/mechanics ignore this and the required tools

To evidence this here is a blown up crop of the filter housing from my guide.
CA_02061422053884-L.jpg

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Geo

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So what you would have us believe is that you only use genuine parts & that every spanner or tool you use is approved by the vehicle manufacturer?:Eeek:

Did you have help with that comment or is it all your own work:RollEyes:
 

Geo

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I was hoping to get sensible simple Yes or No answers
debating Blue print or others was not on my agenda
From such an apparent source of researched knowledge the questions should not be hard
PS Dave Newell you seem to be applying to much tourque ? is your tool saying differant to others in use?
Responding to any further flippant comments is also not on my agenda.
Im trying to have an intelligent Q&A session
 

Techno

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We have established that the torque is not set by Fiat but by the filter housing manufacturer.
We have established that the tool is available from Fiat part number in my picture from service course manual but Fiat no not of it :roflmto:
We have established that the OEM developed bluprint tool does what the filter manufacturer requires NOT Fiat
We have established that many leak apparrently because procedure is ignored because mechanics know what they are doing :roflmto:

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Geo

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Geo raises a good point, so we are lucky in that we do it ourselves without any potential liability issues.

However, surely it is demonstrating due diligence by using a device that evens the load on the cartridge preventing possible hidden fracturing and future failure and fire risk due to the same, and also one that facilitates tightening to the correct torque setting whilst minimising the scope for error. Just a simplistic point of view, fiat part or not.

Don't want to cause any arguments as Geo has to look very closely at liability and possible legal exposure at every turn and it is right to be cautious in these litigious days.

It ain't leaked since we used this device, though

In the early days of cam belt replacement
In cases of premature cam belt failures and warranty claims running into £1000s of pounds for the resulting engine damage
The first question from the belt supplier is what tools were used? Ie cam belt (tensioning tool)
Don't even contemplate saying you use a Snap on one if something else was specified
if you cant prove 100% you did everything right you must have done it wrong so no compensation
its only getting worse these days with everything getting more complex and a proliferation of Forum Barrack room lawyers
Hence my seemingly reasonable questions
Geo
 

Geo

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We have established that the torque is not set by Fiat but by the filter housing manufacturer.
We have established that the tool is available from Fiat part number in my picture from service course manual but Fiat no not of it :roflmto:
We have established that the OEM developed bluprint tool does what the filter manufacturer requires NOT Fiat
We have established that many leak apparrently because procedure is ignored because mechanics know what they are doing :roflmto:

The trade use a term known as Technical Data and the source is traceable "Service Course Manual means nothing to me sorry im missing something have you a publisher
Blueprint as I know them, dont make anything, they are specialist Japaneese parts importers amongs other makes of parts suppliers I will re search and confirm who make the filter housings for Fiat
Do you think we could possibly get all future replies without the constant slur on the competence of the motor trade it is getting boring
sensible answers only please
 

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