Fiat 2005 2.8 jtd - it won't start

Discussion in 'Tech/Mech General' started by jac-in-a-box, Apr 28, 2016.

  1. jac-in-a-box

    jac-in-a-box Read Only Funster

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    Been a while since I've posted, but I need some help from the collective wisdom here please...I didn't have too much hair before this issue but if you could help keep what little is left, I'd be grateful!

    AT Dakota, 2005 38k miles 2.8 jtd lump - fault free to now.

    Sits on driveway with starter battery connected to a CTEK charger. Give it a start-up every month or so. Bursts into life on first turn of key...until a few days ago.
    This time nothing more than a faint click from starter solonoid.

    Battery, think it's the original, shows a healthy voltage - but perhaps it's lacking in oomph. New Yuasa battery fitted, still nothing more than a faint click. Out with multimeter, it's getting full volts to starter but the battery voltage is dropping to 0.8 volts for 30 secs after attempting to start! There is also a quite heavy clunk after 30 seconds which I assume to be the starter solonoid disengaging?

    So, every terminal / fuse location on the positive terminal of the battery is cleaned, as are the starter connections and body/gearbox earthing points - none looked bad.
    Try to start - nothing.

    Off comes the starter, stripped, cleaned usual brush debris and a little scoring of commutator. Solonoid seemed free and it ran happily when bench tested. Refitted and this time it turns engine over at a healthy speed, but it won't start.

    Inertia switch is fine - deliberately tripped and reset and it still won't start...still got a voltage drop but now my instrument needles are doing a dance and the hazard light switch is buzzing away loudly...I'm curing one thing to be presented with more frustrating and bizzare problems!

    While my hearing isn't great - I cannot hear the lift pump working, no fuel no start!
    While trying to rationalise what's turned a healthy starting engine into something less than reliable, the van is fitted with a Toad AI606 alarm/ immobiliser. This "appears" to be working, but I can't help but wonder if this is a problem.
    It has two immobiliser circuits - without unravelling it all I'm assuming the two circuits it's connected to are the start circuit and possibly the fuel lift pump...as it also use's the indicator circuit for visual indication of status, that "may" account for the buzzing hazard switch?

    It's worth mentioning that the standard Fiat immobiliser appears to be working.

    Before I get into removing the Toad alarm, I need to check I'm getting power to the lift pump - I assume that I can access this pump without draining dropping the tank? Is there an access panel in driving area floor - nothing obvious I can see?

    I've also got it in my head that the starter, or at least the solonoid may still be iffy - this huge voltage drop?

    Anyone (if you can make sense of the above!) able to offer any other avenues to pursue? I'd be hugely grateful if you could please!

    David
     
  2. MH 55 FUN

    MH 55 FUN Funster

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    In my experience with cars '' dancing '' instrument panel gauges are indicative of voltage / earthing issues - sorry I can't be more helpful.
     
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  3. john1953

    john1953 Funster

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    Yeh same here, before you do anything else just make sure you have a good engine to chassis earth.
     
  4. jac-in-a-box

    jac-in-a-box Read Only Funster

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    Thanks for your replies...convinced the earths are good, every visible earth is bright and shines and I've connected a decent jump lead from battery neg' to engine with no joy <sniff>
    I think (hope) I've addressed all the usual suspects for a no-start situation.

    I'd have it recovered to a repair place if I thought it could be gotten onto a truck...I live at the top of a cul-de-sac, on a hill. To get it out the drive needs a fair bit of to and fro'ing to get it pointed in the right direction on the road. To make things worse it's blocking in my two summer time play cars <sniff again>

    David
     
  5. denisejoe

    denisejoe Funster Life Member

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    Try pushing the cut out button to reset it on our old van a 2004 burstner it was on the bulk head next to the battery, it was at the bottom of the unit that looks like cylinder

    Joe
     
  6. MH 55 FUN

    MH 55 FUN Funster

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    Is the new battery fully charged with enough CCA ?
     
  7. denisejoe

    denisejoe Funster Life Member

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    Sorry just checked on my current van and it looks like an old fasioned coil and the button is on the top

    Joe
    its small and right at the back
     
  8. Johns_Cross_Motorhomes

    Johns_Cross_Motorhomes Trader - Motorhome & Accessory Sales

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    Fuel cut off solenoid not getting voltage or stuck through lack of use, that will stop engine getting any fuel, you could connect a 12v lead direct to it if no supply to check if it works

    Possible air leaks in fuel supply, check diesel filter for leaks or blockage.

    Peter
     
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  9. Stealaway

    Stealaway Funster

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    I would be checking the fuel supply now.
    What about the fuel filter.
    Undo one of the injector pipes,you should get sprayed with diesel.
    You can check the fuel pump by removing the last pipe that is the return to the tank.
     
  10. jezport

    jezport Funster

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    First of all. If the starter is not spinning, Test the voltage at the starter.
    Second, listen for the fuel pump to start when turning the key to put the dash lights on.
    Third, connect jump lead between the engine and the -ve terminal on the battery, if it starts.remove earth straps clean and retest.
    Forth, is there a possibility of mouse / water or other damage to wiring.

    Then after that I don't know.
     
  11. wizza

    wizza Funster

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    Try Earth on gearbox may look ok remove bolt and then clean and refit I have had these seized and it snaps bolt on removal
     
  12. jac-in-a-box

    jac-in-a-box Read Only Funster

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    Again, thanks for your contributions!

    Fuel cut off solonoid/inertia switch is I think OK - I've deliberately tripped and reset it several times. I could bridge it I and see what happens.

    Confident battery is fine, 950 CCA...I've always had confidence in Yuasa batteries and the supplier bought one in for me direct from Yuasa UK. Anyway, it turns engine over at a healthy speed (faster than old battery)
    I just need it to start!

    I really have it in my head that it's the after market alarm/immobiliser, need to be sure before I tackle what looks like a snakes wedding of wires - and possibly make matters worse!

    David
     
  13. Wildbill

    Wildbill Funster

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    Check all your Erth tags on iner wing and any where Ther is a earth
    this sounds like a earthing problem
    To me
    Bill
     
  14. ****

    **** Read Only Funster

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    Is the motor reading the ignition key, any way to reset it?
     
  15. JockandRita

    JockandRita Funster Life Member

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    @jac-in-a-box. David, we had the same problem about four years ago, on our 2.8TDi at Narbonne Plage. It turned out to be a faulty immobiliser, which operates on the fuel pump, and was repaired and reprogrammed at the main Fiat Agent in Narbonne.

    HTH,

    Jock. :)
     
  16. alan

    alan Funster

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    I had problems with mine st times and it was the immobiliser,I always managed to get it started by keep pressing the alarm button even when in the ignition.i could see on the dash console the red lock not going off when it was going to be a problem.alan
     
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  17. Boringfrog

    Boringfrog Funster

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    Was coming to say the same as @alan, is the red lock on dash going off when ignition turned on?
     
  18. emmitdb

    emmitdb Funster

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    This one is totally left field as our American cousins say. This has happened to me!!!

    I couldn't start our Hobby (effectively a 2005 2.8 Jtd) because I had the Audi car keys in my pocket!!!!

    Somehow, the Fiat 'knew' they were there and refused to start. Put car keys on a rock 10yds away and off the Fiat went. It happened to me twice in 2 hrs.
     
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  19. jac-in-a-box

    jac-in-a-box Read Only Funster

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    Felt sure I'd looked at all the earths Bill - having just had a quick look this morning, there are two hefty earths comming direct from neg terminal of battery. One is a direct earth to the starter - that is spotless. The other goes under the battery tray, to where I'm not sure?
    It's going to be a battery out job again to check; grrr!

    Not 100% certain what you mean. If it's will the starter turn over on the key, yes it does. I've gone from nothing but a click when trying to turn the engine over, to an engine that rapidly spins but won't start.

    I've got a strong feeling that I do have an immobiliser issue Jock - albeit that it's the aftermarket dual circuit one that's the culprit. The dash indicates the Fiat immobiliser is working correctly ie ignition on and the immobiliser light goes out after a second.

    Alan & Boringfrog, are you referring to an aftermarket system? Sounds like it. I have a red/green light indication for alarm status...jump in cab, red light lit, key to start position, disarm alarm/immob on fob, led changes from red to green, turn key and it bursts into life...in it's past life!
    It seems to be functioning according to LED sequence but I think, or hope, that one of the immob circuits is still affecting the supply to in tank fuel pump - I can't hear the pump.

    Yes, heard this one emmitdb. Oddly enough one of the two cars trapped in my drive is an Audi...key fobs are nowhere near the m'home though!
    But appreciate the tip

    Snow, unbelievable snow, more than has ever laid in the last 2 or 3 winters has curbed my enthusiasm to play just now. Plenty of time to mull over the problem.
    *Need to find where this large 2nd earth cable from battery goes and check it out.
    *check there is power to lift pump and it's associated fuses / relays. Bridge the inertia fuel cut-off switch
    *if none of that works, attempt to remove the aftermarket alarm/ immobiliser...twitches me a little. With unmarked and many same coloured wires from the alarm unit, I need to be sure I get the right ones!

    Genuinely welcome all the useful advice offered so far. If there is anything else I should consider, please let me know:)
    Finally, a decent schematic of the electrical system for starting/ fuel control would be a god send - anyone please?

    Thanks, David
     
  20. Boringfrog

    Boringfrog Funster

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    I presume it's the factory fitted imobiliser. 2004 2.8Jtd. 20160429_125413.jpg
     
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