Engine management....WHY? (1 Viewer)

[Landy lover]

Agree about the oils but don't slagg BL off.
Best car we ever had, mechanicaly,( never missed a beat in 250,000 miles) was a Montego diesel estate.
Unfortunately, as with many marques, the bodywork rotted at the speed of sound.

That was reliable because it was not made by BL but by Perkins - some of the best made, longest lived, economical engines made

 

[DBK]

Whilst this discussion is interesting it does beg the question "So what?". For example, I have often seen it recommended here that a second hand MH is good value but does this apply to the sort of vehicle being manufactured now?

In other words, second hand is fine if it is very old and can be easily maintained by the average home mechanic but modern vehicles are a different matter and any MH older than say the average design life of the base vehicle (say around 7 years) is potentially going to be expensive and troublesome to keep running?

Is that what this discussion has concluded?

 

[Puddleduck]

From this discussion I conclude that modern vehicles are generally more reliable, give more MPG, lower emissions and do more miles over their lifetime than ever before, however, when they do go wrong they are expensive to repair and the repair is generally not an "at roadside" DIY job.

There will always be the "Friday" vehicle and I just hope it isn't me that ends up with another one!

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[Mastercamper]

HELP Fault code P1213

I`m now beginning to wish I hadn`t started this thread. Thank you for all your inputs, - from a trader who told me that I had limited experience, to normal users who agree that sensors cause all sorts of problems which don`t actually exist.

Now to the nitty gritty.
My OH`s Ford C Max zetec 2000 suddenly stopped and now won`t start. Engine freely turns on the key, plenty fuel etc but will not fire up.
Diagnostic fault code P1213 start injector malfunction.

Web sites I have been able to access recognise the code but don`t know how to fix it. My tame mobile technician has gone to seek further help. He turned off the fault code from the sensor but it still won`t start.

Can anyone help us please, with ideas of what to do next?

 

[joner8888]

From this discussion I conclude that modern vehicles are generally more reliable, give more MPG, lower emissions and [HI]do more miles over their lifetime [/HI]than ever before, however, when they do go wrong they are expensive to repair and the repair is generally not an "at roadside" DIY job.

There will always be the "Friday" vehicle and I just hope it isn't me that ends up with another one!

That seems about right, I spose one thing more that will favour a old school motorhome is that most are all low mileage.
Mines 17 years old and done 41k miles.


Then someone who wants to spend 40k+ on a MH might not want to be seen dead in a 17 year old MH

I would sooner spend 10k+ on a MH and save the rest for a ( RAINY ) day

 

[Ed Excel]

We're not - with exceptions the Far East use Philips and we use Pozidrive. Don't knock 'em - I love being able to put in 50 woodscrews without getting blisters.

Depends how old you are, Pozidrives didn't exist when I drove a screwdriver, and wether you're putting them in or taking them out. Try and recut the slots in a 'star' head screw!

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[Jaws]

There are two problems neither of which has anything to do with progress. The first is the unwillingness of formerly keen DiY and professional motor engineers to involve themselves in electronic management and the second is the repair and pricing policies of the motor trade. There isn't one "black box" or sensor on a modern vehicle that costs more than £15 to manufacture - in fact most sensors will cost under £5 to make. The motor trade must be laughing all the way to the bank when customers appear to be willing to pay £50+ per hour labour charges for the attention of "technicians" who can do little more than read a screen & change the over-priced components suggested. Even before EFI the normal diagnostic method for car electrical parts was to substitute with new - with the customer paying for each item replaced until the fault went away. Nothing has changed except there's a new way of fleecing customers. As garage visits reduce because vehicles are more reliable & service intervals are extended there's a need to maintain income so they charge more for the parts. :soaobox:

Could not agree more.. O2 sensor died on Womans Jimney
Genuine part fitted by main stealer and code rest, £242.

A quick search.. went straight to the manufacturer of sensor ( in China ! Got the info off the OEM unit ) £15.00 including emergency post from China ( arrived in 2 days ).
Fitted in under 10 minutes and the code cleared its self !!

 

[jhorsf]

Its suck squeeze bang blow but with a lot of "green" electronics that when they do go wrong are a PITA

 

[Hercules]

All this green rubbish drives me mad! Next thing they'll want to put catalytic converters on volcanos, and flatulence management systems on pigs!

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[IanF]

Why just pigs????????

 

[olley]

That was reliable because it was not made by BL but by Perkins - some of the best made, longest lived, economical engines made

Best made? longest lived? Economical? I worked on them and like them but those three plus points don't come to mind.

Good agricultural engines that would take a load of abuse, but noisy, did I say noisy.

Ian

 

[Hercules]

Best made? longest lived? Economical? I worked on them and like them but those three plus points don't come to mind.

Good agricultural engines that would take a load of abuse, but noisy, did I say noisy.

Ian

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Perkins Prima engine used by BL converted from the petrol O series motor.

Perkins own motors are very robust, with nitrided crankshafts I do believe.

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[dave newell]

I`m now beginning to wish I hadn`t started this thread. Thank you for all your inputs, - from a trader who told me that I had limited experience, to normal users who agree that sensors cause all sorts of problems which don`t actually exist.

Now to the nitty gritty.
My OH`s Ford C Max zetec 2000 suddenly stopped and now won`t start. Engine freely turns on the key, plenty fuel etc but will not fire up.
Diagnostic fault code P1213 start injector malfunction.

Web sites I have been able to access recognise the code but don`t know how to fix it. My tame mobile technician has gone to seek further help. He turned off the fault code from the sensor but it still won`t start.

Can anyone help us please, with ideas of what to do next?

P1213 appears to be "injector pressure outside tolerance" so the first ste pwould be to connect a fully conversant EOBD reader, these cost several thousand pounds but can read live data which is what is required. It could be the pressure sensor (there's that word again) that is giving erroneous readings or it could be the high pressure pump is FUBAR. A skilled (real) technician (as opposed to a fitter abusing the title) should be able to sort it out.
D.

 

[Landy lover]

Best made? longest lived? Economical? I worked on them and like them but those three plus points don't come to mind.

Good agricultural engines that would take a load of abuse, but noisy, did I say noisy.

Ian

Agree Ian - I too have worked on them but in their time the Montego engine was one of the first diesels to be in the average family car and return not only high mileage without breakdown but also very high mpg figures. Even now there are many still serving in Series Land Rovers where is was almost a straight replacement for the old 2.25 petrol or diesel and despite being a smaller capacity produced a higher BHP and torque - all that without electronics ( but don't mention the emissions )

 

[Hercules]

Agree Ian - I too have worked on them but in their time the Montego engine was one of the first diesels to be in the average family car and return not only high mileage without breakdown but also very high mpg figures. Even now there are many still serving in Series Land Rovers where is was almost a straight replacement for the old 2.25 petrol or diesel and despite being a smaller capacity produced a higher BHP and torque - all that without electronics ( but don't mention the emissions )

Austin/Morris were fitting their 1.5 litre diesel into the Cambridge and Oxford A60 cars in the early 1960s, not a bad diesel actually, but not very fast.

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[jhorsf]

OH for the simple days

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULQ6196Tfds&list=RDEBp78YX0A_M"]Redneck GoCart - YouTube[/ame]

 

[tjay]

breakdowns

I agree with master camper, been a Volvo man for many years 2 years ago we purchased a new Volvo XC90 it worked great for 18 months ! then for no reason would not start or it would start and then stop with no warning, not nice on a couple of occasions after about 6 AA recoveries to my local Volvo garage they tried to fix it,changed fuel rail, fuel pump umpteen sensors then called to say it was repaired and they would deliver it that day ! but, 15 mins later called to advise me that it had broke down again with the delivery driver !
Car had only done 13500 miles ! give the garage their due they chased up Volvo who eventually agreed that I could change the car for not a lot of cash so we bought a VW Toureg tdi never had any problems with that car.
Give the old cars any day, I could usually sort them myself, nowadays most garage's have technical fitter who can only replace things rather than repair them mostly at great cost for a cheap bit of wiring with a plug or terminals on it.
Hope our new Bailey with the Peugeot 2.2 is better than my old Volvo !!

 

[Mastercamper]

P1213 appears to be "injector pressure outside tolerance" so the first ste pwould be to connect a fully conversant EOBD reader, these cost several thousand pounds but can read live data which is what is required. It could be the pressure sensor (there's that word again) that is giving erroneous readings or it could be the high pressure pump is FUBAR. A skilled (real) technician (as opposed to a fitter abusing the title) should be able to sort it out.
D.

Good morning Dave,
It was an EOBD reader that our guy used. He is currently considering his options and talking with the Ford main dealer. As I am not qualified to form a judgement or make a diagnosis, I await the outcome.
This part of Northumberland,is a wonderful place to live as long as we have transport, (8 miles from the nearest bus route,) which is why I posted the original question, if you recall, which was basically saying that we rely on sensors to tell us when something is wrong, but they seem to take over and control the situation. This would be OK, if they were reliable in service, which they don`t seem to be. I have no problem with the need to keep emissions under control, but the technology seems not to be in place.
What I am trying to say is that when a sensor fails, all hell breaks loose.
It costs a fortune to replace it.
There was no engine fault.
Just a U/S sensor.
Replace the sensor and all is OK.
What is the point?
All the inconvenience and expense to no avail.

However, Thank you for your input.
As usual, I await the outcome.

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[motorhomer]

Most things have been said on this but I felt I had to comment.

Comparing motor vehicles from today with 40/50 years ago :-

Performance - massively improved

Reliability - massively improved

Economy - massively improved

Comfort and quietness - massively improved

service requirements - massively reduced

WHY ? Mainly down to engine management systems.

Yes its a pain if you can't do anything when there is a problem especially if its a sensor issue, but remember all the hours most drivers had to spend under the bonnet every week?

My first car used to go down the motorway from leeds to Leicester. It used several gallons of fuel, 2 pints of oil and about 4 pints of water on every trip. when did anyone last top up the radiator or even oil in a modern car????

Things have got much better, not worse!!!

 

[tonyidle]

Absolutely. Improved mechanical design, better metallurgy, closer machining tolerances, and improved lubricants also play a major part. My original rant wasn't about the technology but rather about motor trade repair and pricing policies and about many previously keen DiYers being afraid or unwilling to learn about modern engine diagnostics.

 

[joner8888]

Absolutely. Improved mechanical design, better metallurgy, closer machining tolerances, and improved lubricants also play a major part. [HI]My original rant wasn't about the technology but rather about motor trade repair and pricing policies and about many previously keen DiYers being afraid or unwilling to learn about modern engine diagnostics[/HI].

It`s not being afraid of new tech , it`s being pushed back with costs of equipment and having to justify to customers all the time of why it costs so much just to find out whats wrong.

Most people as on here are used to old ways ,where a ( mechanic) could look, listen, smell his way around a engine and advise free.

Now it needs £££££ of gear to the same job.

New tech is not the answer to all, I see cars around 8 years old with modern tech needing something simple as a ECU or ABS system or a airbag system, for a MOT.
The costs of this can scrap a perfectly good , one owner / low mileage / perfectly good car ,where as years ago one could bolt on something for a few £.
Maybe it`s how we value modern disposable cars, years ago we would stay up half the night to weld sills on a old heap of a Mini just to keep it going not even questioning the value of it ,now it`s look--quote--scrap

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[tonyidle]

It`s not being afraid of new tech , it`s being pushed back with costs of equipment and having to justify to customers all the time of why it costs so much just to find out whats wrong.

Most people as on here are used to old ways ,where a ( mechanic) could look, listen, smell his way around a engine and advise free.

Now it needs £££££ of gear to the same job.

New tech is not the answer to all, I see cars around 8 years old with modern tech needing something simple as a ECU or ABS system or a airbag system, for a MOT.
The costs of this can scrap a perfectly good , one owner / low mileage / perfectly good car ,where as years ago one could bolt on something for a few £.
Maybe it`s how we value modern disposable cars, years ago we would stay up half the night to weld sills on a old heap of a Mini just to keep it going not even questioning the value of it ,now it`s look--quote--scrap

Again I agree. The independents don't stand a chance. I understand there has been some attempt to press car manufacturers to make their diagnostics available to independent repairers but not much seems to have happened. As for costs I'll repeat what I said earlier: there's no electronic device on a modern car that costs more than £10 - £15 to manufacture with most costing less than a fiver. The reason good cars are being scrapped is entirely due to motor manufacturers' pricing of spare parts.

 

[dave newell]

Again I agree. The independents don't stand a chance. I understand there has been some attempt to press car manufacturers to make their diagnostics available to independent repairers but not much seems to have happened. As for costs I'll repeat what I said earlier: there's no electronic device on a modern car that costs more than £10 - £15 to manufacture with most costing less than a fiver. The reason good cars are being scrapped is entirely due to motor manufacturers' pricing of spare parts.

Independents stand every chance if they're prepared to invest time and money. On the same estate s our workshop is a small garage whose propprietor specialises in vehicle electronics, he can code keys for almost any vehicle, override built in immobilisers on most vehicles, recode ECUs of most types to most vehicles, he has diagnostics equipment that has cost him over ten grand but with it he can access most systems on most modern vehicles. He employs three other guys and they do just about everyting between them from a simple service to engine rebuilds, clutches, brakes etc. There is plenty of scope for independent workshops to prosper with the right investment of time and money.

And while you may well be correct about manufacturing costs of electronics it has always been the way. Many years ago my brother worked for a large manufacturing company, one of their products involved a Smiths fuel tank sender assembly which cost them about a fiver, the same part from a motor factors was about £40 at that time (25 ish years ago). Part of that is because every company involved in the supply chain has to make profit.

D.

 

[tonyidle]

I know there are independents like the one you describe but they're few and far between. He will have had to invest time and money simply to obtain information that should be made available by the vehicle manufacturer and which is instead made difficult or impossible to obtain. He won't (for example) have access to the car manufacturer's servers from which software updates are applied and he will have fought for every hard-won bit of information he has. There is an ongoing battle to force car manufacturers to supply information to independent workshops that despite helpful legislation still isn't won.

I take your point about the electronics supply chain but excessive (and apparently increasing) margins on simple car electronic components are dramatically shortening the life of what is for most people a major investment.

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[dave newell]

I know there are independents like the one you describe but they're few and far between. He will have had to invest time and money simply to obtain information that should be made available by the vehicle manufacturer and which is instead made difficult or impossible to obtain. He won't (for example) have access to the car manufacturer's servers from which software updates are applied and he will have fought for every hard-won bit of information he has. There is an ongoing battle to force car manufacturers to supply information to independent workshops that despite helpful legislation still isn't won.

I take your point about the electronics supply chain but excessive (and apparently increasing) margins on simple car electronic components are dramatically shortening the life of what is for most people a major investment.

But how is the life being shortened? My first vehicle was a 1967 mini van bought in 1978 for £100 and it was rotten as a pear. Most modern cars go on for a good ten years and don't rot like they used to, even Vauxhalls. I had a 10 year old Vauxhall in yesterday for a service, 122,000 miles on it and running sweet as a nut, my wife's car is an 8 year old Focus diesel, 120,000+ miles on it and still going strong with no rust to speak of, ourt camper is a 1996 Iveco daily ex disabled bus with over 150,000 on it and still goingf strong with no significant rust, my work van is an 8 year old Ducato with nearly 200,000 miles on it and still going strong with no significant rust, my car is a 1995 MX5 with 114,000 miles on it, rear arches and sills were rusted out when I got it but half a day with the welder and its good as new, my niece's car is a 2001 Yaris, originally owned by her mother and now with over 100,000 miles on it. Other than regular servicing items, tyres, brakes and exhaust (even that lasted ten years) the only failure was the MAF sensor last year, no significant rust on it. Modern cars outlast the rubbish of 30 years ago by a huge margin.

D.

 

[fifthwheel]

We had to scrap an Astra 2ltr diesel a couple of years ago for the sake of a chip needed in the injector pump. It was my daughters car a 1999 model, we tried sending the pump to be repaired that didnt work a new pump was out of the question, a very common fault, we tried to buy a second hand pump but everybody was looking for them, we eventually gave up and scrapped it. The engine was perfect the body had no rust what a shame for the sake of a little chip. Not impressed by Bosch at all these days (pump maker)

 

[dave newell]

We had to scrap an Astra 2ltr diesel a couple of years ago for the sake of a chip needed in the injector pump. It was my daughters car a 1999 model, we tried sending the pump to be repaired that didnt work a new pump was out of the question, a very common fault, we tried to buy a second hand pump but everybody was looking for them, we eventually gave up and scrapped it. The engine was perfect the body had no rust what a shame for the sake of a little chip. Not impressed by Bosch at all these days (pump maker)

Fair comment but it did make it to over ten years.

D.

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[tonyidle]

But how is the life being shortened? My first vehicle was a 1967 mini van bought in 1978 for £100 and it was rotten as a pear. Most modern cars go on for a good ten years and don't rot like they used to, even Vauxhalls. I had a 10 year old Vauxhall in yesterday for a service, 122,000 miles on it and running sweet as a nut, my wife's car is an 8 year old Focus diesel, 120,000+ miles on it and still going strong with no rust to speak of, ourt camper is a 1996 Iveco daily ex disabled bus with over 150,000 on it and still goingf strong with no significant rust, my work van is an 8 year old Ducato with nearly 200,000 miles on it and still going strong with no significant rust, my car is a 1995 MX5 with 114,000 miles on it, rear arches and sills were rusted out when I got it but half a day with the welder and its good as new, my niece's car is a 2001 Yaris, originally owned by her mother and now with over 100,000 miles on it. Other than regular servicing items, tyres, brakes and exhaust (even that lasted ten years) the only failure was the MAF sensor last year, no significant rust on it. Modern cars outlast the rubbish of 30 years ago by a huge margin.

D.

Can't disagree with that. I bought a two years old BL1800 and had to replace rotten sills within the first two months of ownership. Modern cars are an order of magnitude better in every way than cars built back in the '60s, '70s, and even '80s. But that doesn't excuse ( in fact it highlights) the fact that, whilst they are built to last 10+ years a substantial and growing number end up scrapped (wasted?) due to simple electronic failures.

 

[DBK]

Can't disagree with that. I bought a two years old BL1800 and had to replace rotten sills within the first two months of ownership. Modern cars are an order of magnitude better in every way than cars built back in the '60s, '70s, and even '80s. But that doesn't excuse ( in fact it highlights) the fact that, whilst they are built to last 10+ years a substantial and growing number end up scrapped (wasted?) due to simple electronic failures.

I'm not sure they are built to last 10+ years. The bodywork might last that long but as vehicles get older they fall further behind the safety and emissions requirements which new cars have to meet, so at a political level they don't want old cars. There is also a vested interest by the car makers themselves to keep selling new cars to replace the old ones being scrapped. It wasn't so long ago there was a scrappage scheme here in the UK precisely to give the auto industry a boost. That is gave a boost more to folk like Hyundai and other overseas makers of cheaper vehicles and not so much to the domestic car manufacturers is a different subject!