Engine management....WHY? (1 Viewer)

[Hercules]

Take a nice reliable diesel engine, add loads of fancy electronics.. great idea... not!

 

[Ivory55]

Do you think in years to come our kids and grand kids will say do you remember the old days ? We just used to plug the lap top in, buy a new ecu and it was all fixed .

 

[MikeandCarolyn]

A couple of weeks ago,60 miles from home,fortunately having just passed a small garage in a country lane near Weston super mare the dashboard on our Volvo s60 lit up
BRAKE FAILURE !! STOP VEHICLE SAFELY AND SEEK ASSISTANCE

I drove into the little garage I had just passed-Codes were read :thumb:
faulty ECU it said. Mechanic re-set codes,took it for long road test and pronounced it all OK. £15 for cash and we were on our way home-but-if it happens again will it be the ECU or will it be brake failure ??

Who knows
What fun.

Mike

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[Hercules]

Do you think in years to come our kids and grand kids will say do you remember the old days ? We just used to plug the lap top in, buy a new ecu and it was all fixed .

No, they will be back to common sense, and laughing at us!

 

[rangi]

Didn't get that trouble with the Morris Minor!

 

[Hercules]

Didn't get that trouble with the Morris Minor!

I don't get that trouble with my Mirage, except for the turbo it's a standard old school diesel, only 122bhp but plenty of power for me! and best of 31 mpg not bad for a 4100kg A class.

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[barearse]

Sensors and sensibility!

My sisters partner,a very able mechanic of the old school was given a fairly recent Transit (think it was as a challenge!).The lad had spent over £1500 trying to get the thing to go.In the end,dad gave up and at some future point he is putting a complete Tata chassis under it. I think I will stick with my old Merc with the OM 364 engine for the forseable future.:thumb:

 

[hilldweller]

BRAKE FAILURE !! STOP VEHICLE SAFELY AND SEEK ASSISTANCE

I drove into the little garage I had just passed-

Mike

Just imagine if you'd had a bump. "So Mr Mike, the computer told you your brakes had failed and you continued driving for 4.79 miles, take him down".

 

[tonyidle]

There are two problems neither of which has anything to do with progress. The first is the unwillingness of formerly keen DiY and professional motor engineers to involve themselves in electronic management and the second is the repair and pricing policies of the motor trade. There isn't one "black box" or sensor on a modern vehicle that costs more than £15 to manufacture - in fact most sensors will cost under £5 to make. The motor trade must be laughing all the way to the bank when customers appear to be willing to pay £50+ per hour labour charges for the attention of "technicians" who can do little more than read a screen & change the over-priced components suggested. Even before EFI the normal diagnostic method for car electrical parts was to substitute with new - with the customer paying for each item replaced until the fault went away. Nothing has changed except there's a new way of fleecing customers. As garage visits reduce because vehicles are more reliable & service intervals are extended there's a need to maintain income so they charge more for the parts. :soaobox:

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[Larby]

if its an electronic fault there will be a code stored in the ECU.
You need someone with an OBD2 code reader or a dealer to diagnose the problem.

I believe the immobiliser is part of the ECU and if faulty a replacement ECU may be needed.
not cheap.....i think around £800 to £1000

My son uses these people, http://www.ecutesting.com/catalogue/fiat_eculist.html?category=4046
very efficient and small charge to check if component proves not to be faulty, approx. £45.
Rebuilds usually about £250 +vat.
They may not deal direct with public so get a local independent to send it away. Usually back within 7 days, they ring to tell you what they have found and the cost.



Sensors? Forced by the need for cleaner emissions and efficiency. Back in the 60's we got 25/30 mpg in a 2 litre, what do we get today? a lot more.
More power and better MPG but still a few lumps of metal going up and down in a water cooled lump of metal.
My son often complains that he trained as a mechanic but often has to be an electronics expert, don't even mention can-bus to him.
He even has to code the injectors on diesels if they have been re-conditioned or replaced. Get a mortgage arranged for new ones!
My son will often get the diagnostics machine to CONFIRM HIS diagnosis, there are still a few proper mechanics around. He cleans crank-shaft, cam-shaft, lambda sensors before resorting to replacement.
There ain't no substitute for experience. I was once told that to check an engine, listen to the exhaust note, especially on tickover. Should be smooth and constant:thumb:

 

[dave newell]

What is this a Luddite convention?

1977 I started my apprenticeship in a British Leyland main dealer.
1978 British Leyland had some QC issues with Marina gearboxes, result was we replaced so many we could do one in 22 minutes between two of us, timed from workshop door inwards to workshop door outwards: no sensors involved.
1979 BL had QC issues with "A" series engines, result we rebuilt so many engines our workshop looked like an engine build shop not a general garage, in one week alone I remember having twelve different cars with engines stripped down and sent away for rebore/new pistons etc. No sensors involved and these engines were ALL in BRAND NEW VEHICLES with less than 3000 miles each! Carburettors needed constant fettling to maintain some semblance of correct AFR, points needed checking and adjusting at 3000 mile intervals, valve clearances needed adjusting at 6000 miles , oil and filter service at 6000 miles and full service at 12000. Diesel engined small vehicles were a rarity and those that were about were slow, noisy, dirty, smelly things with 2.5 litres giving a breathtaking 50BHP and needed a calendar to time the zero to sixty MPH. Turbos were for big trucks and earth movers, not even high performance cars had turbos.

Fast forward 30 plus years and we now have diesel engines in almost everything and they're superb by comparison with the petrol engines we used to have and why? Because they're electronically managed which means a heavy reliance on electronnic sensors. The upside of that reliance on electronics is quiet, refined, economical and powerful engines in both petrol and diesel formats and turbos with everything. Overall they are far more reliable than the rubbish we had for the last hundred years.

D.

 

[Larby]

There are two problems neither of which has anything to do with progress. The first is the unwillingness of formerly keen DiY and professional motor engineers to involve themselves in electronic management and the second is the repair and pricing policies of the motor trade. There isn't one "black box" or sensor on a modern vehicle that costs more than £15 to manufacture - in fact most sensors will cost under £5 to make. The motor trade must be laughing all the way to the bank when customers appear to be willing to pay £50+ per hour labour charges for the attention of "technicians" who can do little more than read a screen & change the over-priced components suggested. Even before EFI the normal diagnostic method for car electrical parts was to substitute with new - with the customer paying for each item replaced until the fault went away. Nothing has changed except there's a new way of fleecing customers. As garage visits reduce because vehicles are more reliable & service intervals are extended there's a need to maintain income so they charge more for the parts. :soaobox:

You do seem to be tarring all with the same brush, see my previous post.
I note you worked for BT? Bet they never ripped off customers??

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[Hercules]

What is this a Luddite convention?

1977 I started my apprenticeship in a British Leyland main dealer.
1978 British Leyland had some QC issues with Marina gearboxes, result was we replaced so many we could do one in 22 minutes between two of us, timed from workshop door inwards to workshop door outwards: no sensors involved.
1979 BL had QC issues with "A" series engines, result we rebuilt so many engines our workshop looked like an engine build shop not a general garage, in one week alone I remember having twelve different cars with engines stripped down and sent away for rebore/new pistons etc. No sensors involved and these engines were ALL in BRAND NEW VEHICLES with less than 3000 miles each! Carburettors needed constant fettling to maintain some semblance of correct AFR, points needed checking and adjusting at 3000 mile intervals, valve clearances needed adjusting at 6000 miles , oil and filter service at 6000 miles and full service at 12000. Diesel engined small vehicles were a rarity and those that were about were slow, noisy, dirty, smelly things with 2.5 litres giving a breathtaking 50BHP and needed a calendar to time the zero to sixty MPH. Turbos were for big trucks and earth movers, not even high performance cars had turbos.

Fast forward 30 plus years and we now have diesel engines in almost everything and they're superb by comparison with the petrol engines we used to have and why? Because they're electronically managed which means a heavy reliance on electronnic sensors. The upside of that reliance on electronics is quiet, refined, economical and powerful engines in both petrol and diesel formats and turbos with everything. Overall they are far more reliable than the rubbish we had for the last hundred years.

D.

I wouldn't admit to working for Bitish Leyland mate!

 

[tonyidle]

You do seem to be tarring all with the same brush, see my previous post.
I note you worked for BT? Bet they never ripped off customers??

Touche

I know I was generalising and I do know a few good independents and a few good main dealer mechanics. It isn't the individuals my post was aimed at - it's the motor industry as a whole.

 

[maison]

Over the last 60 years, I have owned, driven or been responsible for 100`s of vehicles, from motorcycles ,through cars, vans, trucks, P S Vehicles, campervans, motorhomes etc. I have learned that maintenance and respect for the mechanicals and basic knowledge of what happens under the bonnet are the keys to trouble free motoring. Over more than 1,000,000 miles, I have suffered very few roadside breakdowns. When these have occurred, I have usually been able to sort them out ,and only had to refer to breakdown services on very rare occasions.
Over the last few years, however, with the proliferation of so called engine management systems. I have suffered several roadside failures, necessitating reliance on rescue services and the consequent inconvenience associated with breakdowns.
In each case it has not been a mechanical failure as such, but a computer failure in a sensor which has shut the system down. Each repair has been ridiculously expensive needing the replacement of a sensor, to say that, that which was not faulty is no longer faulty, if you get my drift.
[HI]My question is this:- Should progress inevitably be regressive as is the case with engine management systems. Do we really need them?[/HI]

If the EMU fails in our vehicles we struggle to the side of the road and hope someone will sort it out.

When I was working many of the IT staff refused to fly on Boeings with fly by wire systems. As they said, they spent their whole lives dealing with computer crashes, they didn't want to be involved in one!

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[DP+JAY]

But the problem here is you are judging the entire motor industry on your own limited experiences. Many people have modern vehicles that never give them trouble.

D.

I've yet to meet one!
We live in an age of "computer say's NO" and are rapidly becoming "slaves to the machines":Angry:

 

[DP+JAY]

We could continue to argue the point. My own limited experience tells me that sensors are causing a problem that I don`t have. Several vehicle technicians are telling me the same thing. Probably your own limited experience has not encountered these same problems. All I am saying is why do we need these unnecessary technical gizmos when we have managed quite well up to now, when progress is causing so much hassle or is it just another way to line the pockets of the motor trade repair industry. Present company excepted of course

It's not just vehicles either. In industry, machines that cost tens of thousands of pounds per hour stand idle because sensors "think" there is a fault.

 

[DP+JAY]

I am working on a Renault Master 2002 van doing a camper conversion I am dreading taking the thing abroad when finished. I just know we will get electrical problems I probably cant fix, this isn't progress is it?

You're probably better off abroad than here, it is French after all.

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[Hercules]

It's not just vehicles either. In industry, machines that cost tens of thousands of pounds per hour stand idle because sensors "think" there is a fault.

Yeah, I've got one in work now, waiting for the people with the fault codes to visit us with their laptops, whilst my company loses money!

 

[DP+JAY]

There are two problems neither of which has anything to do with progress. The first is the unwillingness of formerly keen DiY and professional motor engineers to involve themselves in[HI] electronic management[/HI] and the second is the repair and pricing policies of the motor trade. There isn't one "black box" or sensor on a modern vehicle that costs more than £15 to manufacture - in fact most sensors will cost under £5 to make. The motor trade must be laughing all the way to the bank when customers appear to be willing to pay £50+ per hour labour charges for the attention of "technicians" who can do little more than read a screen & change the over-priced components suggested. Even before EFI the normal diagnostic method for car electrical parts was to substitute with new - with the customer paying for each item replaced until the fault went away. Nothing has changed except there's a new way of fleecing customers. As garage visits reduce because vehicles are more reliable & service intervals are extended there's a need to maintain income so they charge more for the parts. :soaobox:

Contradiction in terms surely?

 

[DP+JAY]

What is this a Luddite convention?

1977 I started my apprenticeship in a British Leyland main dealer.
1978 British Leyland had some QC issues with Marina gearboxes, result was we replaced so many we could do one in 22 minutes between two of us, timed from workshop door inwards to workshop door outwards: no sensors involved.
1979 BL had QC issues with "A" series engines, result we rebuilt so many engines our workshop looked like an engine build shop not a general garage, in one week alone I remember having twelve different cars with engines stripped down and sent away for rebore/new pistons etc. No sensors involved and these engines were ALL in BRAND NEW VEHICLES with less than 3000 miles each! Carburettors needed constant fettling to maintain some semblance of correct AFR, points needed checking and adjusting at 3000 mile intervals, valve clearances needed adjusting at 6000 miles , oil and filter service at 6000 miles and full service at 12000. Diesel engined small vehicles were a rarity and those that were about were slow, noisy, dirty, smelly things with 2.5 litres giving a breathtaking 50BHP and needed a calendar to time the zero to sixty MPH. Turbos were for big trucks and earth movers, not even high performance cars had turbos.

Fast forward 30 plus years and we now have diesel engines in almost everything and they're superb by comparison with the petrol engines we used to have and why? Because they're electronically managed which means a heavy reliance on electronnic sensors. The upside of that reliance on electronics is quiet, refined, economical and powerful engines in both petrol and diesel formats and turbos with everything. Overall they are far more reliable than the rubbish we had for the last hundred years.

D.

Mine was much the same except I started in 1968, yes they are longer lasting etc. etc.( when did anyone last have a "decoke & grind the valves" or " points & condenser") but as an RAC contractor, I used to drive round in a breakdown truck laden with parts & it was rare that a vehicle could not be repaired on the spot.

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[Hercules]

Mine was much the same except I started in 1968, yes they are longer lasting etc. etc.( when did anyone last have a "decoke & grind the valves" or " points & condenser") but as an RAC contractor, I used to drive round in a breakdown truck laden with parts & it was rare that a vehicle could not be repaired on the spot.

The longevity of modern engines is because of the vastly superior oils available, and the demise of British Leyland, not electronics.

 

[Larby]

It's not just vehicles either. In industry, machines that cost tens of thousands of pounds per hour stand idle because sensors [HI]"think" [/HI]there is a fault.

Local farmer last year had the Combine stop as the sensor said the auger wasn't working, yet it was happily emptying the corn into the trailer alongside.:Sad:
Had an expensive wait and call-out for an engineer.

When I had new company cars my first job was to switch off off the automatic functions. I want technology to be my slave not my master.

 

[DP+JAY]

The longevity of modern engines is because of the vastly superior oils available, and the demise of British Leyland, not electronics.

Agree about the oils but don't slagg BL off.
Best car we ever had, mechanicaly,( never missed a beat in 250,000 miles) was a Montego diesel estate.
Unfortunately, as with many marques, the bodywork rotted at the speed of sound.

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[oldun]

[HI]

[/HI]

Hello DBK.
All I am asking is why?
In this day and age when recycling is thrust upon us, am I forced into a position that failure of a sensing component is tantamount to huge expenditure on something that isn`t actually needed?
I agree that engines have become much more efficient, and that white van technology is what is regarded to be the norm. But does it make sense that, for instance a failing sensor can cause a complete engine shut down, which has happened to me twice now, fortunately not at 70 mph on the motorway, but never at a convenient time, (if such an unnecessary breakdown could be described as a convenient time)?
Do ,for example we all instantly know what all the dash warning symbols mean when a sensor plays silly b**ggers or because so many false warnings manifest, do we assume that they are calling wolf and ignore them till one day a proper fault is recorded? Even a poor earth connection can cause Blackpool illuminations on the dash.


Progress?

Hundreds of years ago I used to have a huge radiogram in which I could replace almost everything in it very cheaply - now I have a sophisticated hi fi system with a fantastic performance that "has no user serviceable parts inside".

Fortunately or unfortunately (as one sees it) that is progress.

MY first ols car (in the 1960's) was "reliable in the sense that you knew it would break down (hose pipe, fan belt, puncture, dirty carb) every 200 miles or so. Oil had to be topped up weekly, changed every 3000 miles and the radiator had to be topped up daily. Tyres were a problem and needed checking and topping up regularly.

My new VW infinitely superior to the old Ford 100E and infinitely more reliable. Unfortunately it is far more expensive to maintain.

 

[Ed Excel]

I blame it on the money men. In any industry if you can take most of the labour element out of the equation you can control the cost better. If it wasn't for quantity surveyors wanting a screw that could be handled by a machine we wouldn't be lumbered with Philips screws.

 

[tonyidle]

I blame it on the money men. In any industry if you can take most of the labour element out of the equation you can control the cost better. If it wasn't for quantity surveyors wanting a screw that could be handled by a machine we wouldn't be lumbered with Philips screws.

We're not - with exceptions the Far East use Philips and we use Pozidrive. Don't knock 'em - I love being able to put in 50 woodscrews without getting blisters.

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[Mastercamper]

Seems that we have general agreement unless you happen to be in the trade.
I am now looking through my electrical kit to find black tape, to cover up the next annoying fairy light on my dash, when it appears

oh:oh:

 

[DBK]

I blame it on the money men. In any industry if you can take most of the labour element out of the equation you can control the cost better. If it wasn't for quantity surveyors wanting a screw that could be handled by a machine we wouldn't be lumbered with Philips screws.

Those Phillips' screws, like Marmite, love or hate 'em they ain't new. Company founded in 1934 - dreadful new fangled things!

They are brilliant - but only if you have a bit which is sharp and fits the screw size. The old rounded screwdriver just gets them a bad name.

Whatever happened to proper screws with good Christian Whitworth threads? None of this foreign rubbish wanted here. :Angry:

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

Some of the sensors are not essential for the satisfactory performance or running of the engine but are there to meet emissions control. My GoldWing motorbike which is made in the good old US of A has two O2 sensors, one in each bank of exhausts. These are there to adjust the fuel mix in the injection system at different throttle openings in order to reduce emissions. The warning light told me that the offside one had failed. A quick chat with my friendly mechanics confirmed my worst fears - £200+ per sensor. However, he went on to tell me that I could buy a bypass kit. This is in essence is a blanking plug to replace the sensor and an electrical plug which goes into the wiring harness in place of the original. What this does is to fool the ECU into thinking that everything is installed and working fine. The bike probably kicks out a few grams more of carbon monoxide but the performance doesn't seem to be compromised in any way. And the cost for this bit of trickery? £38 including shipping from Greece for TWO kits which I fitted myself.

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