DX55FDL - hope it isn't yours!

Discussion in 'American RV's' started by Chani, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Chani

    Chani Read Only Funster

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    There's a thread running on another forum I'm on, here:

    www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1311648

    Someone bought an RV privately with the agreement they would pay so much per month rather than buying it outright. It appears they've disappeared off the face of the earth with the RV, and the original owners think it may have been sold.

    I was debating whether to say anything on here at all, but I know if it were me and I'd bought something that has (apparently) been effectively stolen I'd rather know before the police turn up :Eeek:
     
  2. Jim

    Jim Ringleader

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    Never sell expensive stuff to family or friends, it will often end in tears:Cool:
     
  3. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    No comment ! :Doh:
     
  4. Chani

    Chani Read Only Funster

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    Now that is certainly true!
     
  5. Chani

    Chani Read Only Funster

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    Some people are FAR too trusting :helptitanic:
     
  6. rainbow chasers

    rainbow chasers Read Only Funster

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    V888 form from DVLA and state reason as 'Historic research' or 'Abandoned on my property' - cost around £5. This will give them the registered keeper.

    The registered keeper is not the registered owner - so they could go to court and apply for a seizure of goods. The vehicle will always be theres, as it has not been paid for. Though they foolishly gave them the log book, it is only proof of registered keeper - not owner, though in 99% of cases this is the same.

    Once you have a court order in place, know where the vehicle is etc, you can either hire a recovery company with police present to seize, or hire bailiffs to seize the vehicle. You will be liable for all costs incurred, so need to take it out of storage pretty quickly!
     
  7. Chani

    Chani Read Only Funster

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    Thanks Rainbow. Have passed this information on :thumb:
     
  8. ShiftZZ

    ShiftZZ Funster Life Member

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    Having read the thread, some issues may need considering.

    A – Original Owner
    B- Purchaser
    C- Current Owner

    If A sold the vehicle to B then could A be done for illegal money lending? He may require a licence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974?
    Secondly, as B has made some payments he has a financial interest in the vehicle and therefore the debt is a civil debt. The van cannot be recovered unless you have a court order and in this case the amount is in excess of the amount that a small claims court can deal with, they may have to go to the High Court, very costly.
    If A requests information regarding the vehicle, knowingly having sold the vehicle and transferred the title of the vehicle, then is he committing an offence under the Data Protection Act by requesting information he/she is not entitled to?
    Lastly, if B has sold the vehicle to another C then he may have transferred the title legally to C who is now the legal owner of the vehicle. Any recovery of the vehicle by A could be treated as theft as C may have title.
    This is a rather complex case and there are lessons to be learnt, the best advice I can give is go and see a solicitor and don’t sell anything to a friend.
    As a matter of legality can we still have the heading of this post, as the true ownership of the vehicle is in doubt and is there a potential issue of libel?
    Thoughts?


    ShiftZZ
     
  9. sedge

    sedge Funster

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    B can't sell 'legally' to any of the rest of the alphabet or to any digits or anyone else in fact, unless he first has legal title to the vehicle.

    Until we know that, I feel it would be wiser not to conject, m'lud.
     
  10. ShiftZZ

    ShiftZZ Funster Life Member

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    This is the origial posting
    "My inlaws agreed to a HP agreement with someone who they thought was a friend for him to buy their Recreational Vehicle with monthly instalments. A contract was drawn up and the first few months payments were made.

    The man has now stopped paying and it may have been sold and he has pocketed the cash. (according to his wife, who does not know where he is)

    The problem is that my in laws signed over the log book, so officially it is his vehicle. They have not gone to the police about this but doing their own searches on the Internet. DVLA will not forward any information of who it is now registered to.



    So B can sell it on as he does have title!


    ShiftZZ
     
  11. barryd

    barryd Read Only Funster

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    Not strictly true. Having the log book is not proof of ownership it just shows you as the registered keeper not necessarily the owner.
     
  12. ShiftZZ

    ShiftZZ Funster Life Member

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    So the person who bought it may well have a recipt from the original seller? If thats the case, he owns the RV unless the 'contract' was written to that effect.

    A right old mess..


    ShiftZZ
     
  13. rainbow chasers

    rainbow chasers Read Only Funster

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    To make it simpler to understand. If you went to buy a motorhome on finance from a forecourt - you sign the papers etc and they give you the log book - although he vehicle is not owned by you until such time as the finance is settled.

    A log book is the registered keeper - not the owner.

    It this case, the two payments made could either be returned once the vehicle has been found, seized and disposed of - or the seller could deem that fair 'Rent' for the vehicle over the period of time.

    There is no need for the seller to have any finance qualifications or licence in place as it is not in the form of a business, and they are not charging interest, or making a profit - therefore the payments are legal.

    The current owner has no legal rights to the vehicle whatsoever - despite having paid for it, as it belongs to the original seller, whom has not received the agreed sum. Until such time, it remains their property in law.

    If their 'agreement' was written by a solicitor, then it has some small strength in law - if not, then little strength if any, other than through laws of contract that will take quite a bit of time and money to sort. The blessing is, the guy has gone awol- so any court order will go through quickly and without dispute. Which is a bonus to the original seller..

    This is why cars are HPI checked - because if you buy one that has outstanding finance (owned by a third party), they will take it away from you - and you get nothing. So harsh is the ruling, that is some cases of fraud such as this - the current owner has faced proceedings for receiving stolen goods. It is unfortunate that some innocent person goes through this, but is does happen. The law doesn't respect innocent trust - it assumes you are all dodgy!
     
  14. GJH

    GJH Funster Life Member

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    It's certainly a mess but no Data Protection offence is committed by requesting the information. There is an offence under S55 of Unlawful Obtaining but that is not the same as requesting.

    Anyone can request information about anyone else. It is up to the Data Controller to satisfy himself that the person has a right to the information before releasing it.

    In the case of the DVLA, they can release information if there is reasonable cause (details of how reasonable cause is established in various circumstances are on the DVLA web site). Whether they would in this case I'm not sure without further checking - and me lunch is nearly ready :Smile:

    Graham
     
  15. ShiftZZ

    ShiftZZ Funster Life Member

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    "The blessing is, the guy has gone awol- so any court order will go through quickly and without dispute. Which is a bonus to the original seller.."

    And how will they serve the papers?
    Last know address?

    They may well get returned, then the original owner will have to pay to have him/her traced and re-serve. At any time if the papers have not been served correctly, the purchaser can dispute the proceedings and asked for judgment to be expunged.

    This depends on the contract signed, which we dont not have access to.

    Rainbow, there is no mention of two payments, or mention that he did or did not charge interest.

    The HPI check is irrelevant as the original owner would not have registered an interest. A lot of this depends on what was agreed.

    The moral must be, dont trust anyone...
     
  16. barryd

    barryd Read Only Funster

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    Would it not be cheaper and easier to hire a private detective and then a repo team and just find the vehicle and take it back? I suppose it could be anywhere but I bet the wife knows were it is. If it were me I would be seriously thinking about this kind of action
     
  17. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    just about sums it up

    Being a retired criminal lawyer - time served in practice in Lewes in E Sussex and Tonbridge in Kent, I would agree with ShiftZZ views. It could be a little more complicated as if the person purching the vehcile to start with did so with the intention of obtaining the goods (i.e by deceiption - Theft Act) then it could well be a criminal matter before a civil matter. The issue of Mens Rea (mental element of the transaction) and the Actus Reus (the deed being done i.e. taking the goods) plays heavy on the issue. If the Mens Rea and Actus conincide then there may be a case for theft as defind in the Theft Act... it all comes down to 'dishonestly appropriates'. goes back to the Larceny Act 1916 s20 however you need to consider the 1968 and 1978 Theft Act as well.. If it is a case of an agreement gone sour then the civil courts are the way forward. But if it is a breach of contract and the original owner removed the property then it may be a case he is guilty of Theft and can be arrested and charged.

    To little facts to be able to advise (I am not creating a legal relationship)... while I commend the post I do caution that you can get in to all kinds of trouble advising if you are not qualified to do so. Having read the posts I have serious doubts about some of them and the advice. That is why I went to University and got a law degree and went the rest of the way spending most of my days in the police stations and courts around the South East defending those that had been charged in respect of criminal matters.

    Bob
     
  18. ShiftZZ

    ShiftZZ Funster Life Member

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    Thanks Bob I knew I was right.
    Hugs
    ShiftZZ
     
  19. rainbow chasers

    rainbow chasers Read Only Funster

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    Courts only have to send out to last known address - they have no interest if you receive it or not, and will continue without you.

    The note on onterest was in response to a post stating they needed a FSA licence - but only if they were charging interest. The original link stated that they agreed to pay in installments, though doesn't say if interest is involved - hence i put the two scenarios.

    But the main thing relies on the contract - was it a proffesional one or not - as that could blow the whole thing out of the water - or at least make it very costly to prove!

    As regards to the original link, it did state that the purchasers made 'A few months payments' before disappearing and stopping payments altogether.

    It is something they will have to chase up civilly, but if they put in the effort, they should be able to retrieve it - and I agree wholeheartedly with what you say...Trust no-one! Especially with a 44k RV, You wouldn't hand that over in cash to a family friend as a loan, or to look after for you.
     
  20. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

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    the credit licence issue is important


    Yes the credit licence issue is important as if you are not registered and you charge interest and make an agreement you will breach the Office of Fair Trade rule - i.e consumer protect and you would not be able to enforce the contract even if payments had been made. Anyone can accept private contractual terms, it is the issue of interest and if it is in a course of a business which I doubt. But it is crazy to do what this person has alledged to have done. I agree who in there right mind hands over a camper of that value.

    The last time I came across this I defended a chap that purchased at £1k per month a £25k merc .. involved in an accident with a bus. Police involved, number plate cloned - i.e stolen vehicle. My client arrested for Theft and handling (two charges) He had paid over £5k by this time. He was arrested due to the fact the merc was worth £43k not the £25k he agreed to pay the man in the pub... yes honest in the pub. The client was a business man and was silly. He in the end got fined for no insurance x 2 and changing the tax disc - £3k fine in total but no jail time...the case was heard in the Crown Court and the Theft and Handling charges I negotiated down with the CPS.. but people do do silly things. So selling an RV like this may not be as strange as you think. Just one of the hundreds if not thousands of cases I was involved in where people did daft things. Some criminal some not, but all silly.

    Bob
     

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