Ducato - 5th gear popping out (1 Viewer)

[Melchior]

I went to De Bridge last week and picked up a new synchro unit and new oil. What a place - if you are ever in Belgium/Netherlands/NE France and have a problem with something Ducato related, you need to speak to these guys. Their place is HUGE and filled with Ducato/Boxer/Jumper parts. The guy I dealt with is called Glen, he speaks good English and was very knowledgeable and helpful.

As usual last week was quite eventful so I didn't get as far as I wanted. OH and I were too tired to bother going to the Düsseldorf thankfully as the gearbox still wasn't fixed. The guide linked at the start of this thread says you need a 37mm socket, it is not, it is actually 36mm. In fact I don't seem to need it anyway as I'm only changing the synchro.

Ah yes, changing the synchro, you do need a C Spanner and if someone can tell me the size I would be grateful as I don't know it. I also don't have a C spanner and am trying to find a shop which might sell me one, already tried a couple of good motor factors and they don't have them. Maybe a motor/pushbike shop.

Aim is to get it done for Friday latest so we can go to Düsseldorf Caravan Salon this weekend, don't really want to miss it as it was awesome last year

 

[Melchior]

Finally an update! Sadly it's not a particularly good one.

My 45-50mm C spanner arrived yesterday. Couldn't find one anywhere in a real life shop so had to order online. It was €13.90 including VAT (BTW in NL) and postage.

It was hammering down with rain yesterday so I didn't go to the motorhome. Today was dry so I went there almost straight from work and cracked on. C Spanner fits, great!

BUT. It turns the synchro assembly with it. So I put it into 4th gear and that locks it. BUT. It will not turn. I then noticed that one of the tabs on the tab washer was bent into one of the notches on the nut, preventing the nut from turning. After some insertion of a thin flat screwdriver and wangling around, I managed to bend the tab away. BUT (are you getting the picture now?!) -- it still will not turn.

So again I'm stuck at an impasse. How do you remove this nut?? Am I missing something stupid? Do I need to bash the C spanner with a hammer to shock the nut off? Do I need to blowtorch the nut to get it nice and hot? I cannot imagine it's on there that tight, plus I'm afraid to break the C Spanner or for it to slip off the notches on the nut so many times that it or the notches get worn out / rounded off.

Here's the tabbed washer with me boshing a screwdriver into the one tab which was bent up into the notch on the nut.



Help GREATLY appreciated as I'm rather stuck (again) now!

Cheers,
M

 

[TheBig1]

first i know this sounds condescending however have you tried turning the nut the other way? you are turning in the correct direction?

then once confirmed which way i would use a drift and a hammer on one of the slots to slacken it off. heat is a real last resort

personally if its that difficult, i would take the gearbox out and work on the bench.

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[B-well]

see if you can see which way the thread starts. you may be trying to turn to tighten the nut.
good luck

 

[Melchior]

Funny you mention turning it the other way. Whilst I was wrestling with the C Spanner and beginning to swear, a little pixie in my head whispered "left hand thread......."

I dropped everything and inspected the tiny bit of thread sticking out of the centre of the nut. Ran my nail around it to be certain - it is a normal right handed thread i.e. anti-clockwise to loosen.

Drift and hammer... yeah I had thought of trying that. I am very afraid of the drift smashing the notches to pieces though. If even one of them gets knackered, it could stop me from turning the shaft to access the next one along, then I'm shafted (excuse the pun).

ALL the guides I've read about this repair have given the impression that it is pretty much dead easy. 2 hours in a car park: no ramps, no jacks, no gearbox removal. Either I'm missing something or there's something wrong...

 

[DM14742]

The 5th Gear on my 2001 2.8 JTD Ducato has just disintergrated 80 miles from home on the A1. No warning just a horrid noise & the gearstick jumped out. Got recovered & now awaiting the news re: extent of the damage. I can still select all the other gears so hope its confined to 5th & sounds like the same fault that many others have had. I have been advised on extended runs in 5th gear to slow up every 50 miles & drop down to 4th to initiate an oil splash in the gearbox to keep 5th lubricated, would this help?

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[Melchior]

Sorry to hear of your breakdown Jez & Lin. At least you weren't far from home; when mine happened I was halfway to Le Mans for the 24 hours and have since done maybe 1500km since it failed. Not pleasant with a maximum of 90km/h and a top of 4th.

I've heard the same as you mention regarding going for 4th without engaging clutch every so often to move the oil around. In theory it sounds feasible to me. I've also read about modifying the end case of the main part of the gearbox by drilling extra holes in to allow oil to flow more freely. That would surely require total gearbox removal and probably a partial stripdown.

Generally accepted rules (I learned this after my failure of course) are:

1. Wait until 10-15 mins of driving are done before going for 5th especially after the van has been parked up for a long time
2. Don't use 5th below 80km/h (50 ish MPH)
3. Even if doing over 80km/h or 50 MPH, drop down to 4th on hills or when working the engine hard.

Dunno about this but using fully synthetic oil might help too (at least people report the gearshift is smoother).

 

[Melchior]

Progress! Not as far as I'd hoped though. Here's what happened this afternoon:

Popped to a DIY shop and bought a nice looking chisel without too sharp and end on it. Ideally I wanted something like a copper bar which is less likely to damage the object being thwacked but this is what they had. Along with a recently purchased 1.5kg hammer, my calculations predicted that this would be "enough"



Didn't need the big hammer actually, a more sensible one was to hand and after some careful bashing in the notches, the ring started to turn. It must have been F-tight as it took quite a bit of force. Once it started to move, I used the C spanner to take it the rest of the way. Note: I put the box into 4th to stop everything turning round.

Then remove the notched ring and tabbed washer. The synchro and selector fork will come off at the same time but aren't connected to each other:



That leaves you with this:


Damage to synchro - 3 teeth chipped off:


Nearly there! But no. Upon inspecting the synchro bit of the large 5th gear, I saw what I didn't want to see. One of the teeth there is chipped off too. Means I'll need to buy a new 5th gear, not just the synchro



This is also an important picture - Air box removed, white reverse switch unplugged but not yet removed (small, but you can see it bang in the middle of the photo). This is where you'll fill the oil later on.



This is the new synchro unit, oh so close to having been fitted today. Before fitting I will coat it in a decent amount of gearbox oil so it's not totally dry.

 

[JockandRita]

104K Kms now, and no fifth gear problems as yet.

Famous last words, eh? oh:

I've only today, just managed to get WiFi since 31st Aug, however, ours went at 108K kms, half an hour out of Dusseldorf whilst heading for the Rhine. There was no big bang, just a thud when it jumped out of 5th, and an obvious build up of engine revs. I can still engage 5th, especially on downhill stretches, but I have to hold it in. The slightest effort to accelerate just causes it to jump out again. I am reduced to 80 Kph (50 Mph) in 4th now, as it is too noisy to travel faster without 5th. Hopefully this will be sorted very soon after getting home on the 22nd Sept. No doubt the economy has "gone for a ball of chalk".

Melchoir thanks for your efforts with the updates, images, and descriptions. :thumb:

Once sorted, I'll come back with an update...........or before, if any problems encountered.

Cheers for now,

Jock.

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[estcres]

Several years ago I was travelling South on the M6 when the engine suddenly dropped out of 5th gear, I engaged it again and it dropped out virtually straight away, several attempts later I realised there was a problem.

I phoned Webbs of Warminster, who serviced the van, and explained what was happening, they advised to continue the journey but only use up to 4th.

When I got back home I arranged for it to go into the local gearbox specialist and the mechanic knew exactly what the problem was.

I left the vehicle with him for 2 weeks as I was going to Teneriffe, when I got back home I collected the van and paid him £200 + VAT

He showed me the problem and said it was a very common problem with Ducatos

 

[B-well]

Melchoir great pics showing process, sorry to hear about your troubles but great to hear you are having ago yourself.
how do you know how much oil to put in ?oh:

 

[Melchior]

Famous last words, eh? oh:

Nooo! Sorry to hear about it Jock. At least now you have a good idea of how to fix it. I did a lot of km's without 5th and found it super tiring. Doing a max of 100 km/h but setting around 85-90 I was surprised that the fuel economy didn't go through the roof.

paid him £200 + VAT

You got a bargain. Just the parts (gear and synchro) are over €500 now.

Melchoir great pics showing process, sorry to hear about your troubles but great to hear you are having ago yourself.
how do you know how much oil to put in ?oh:

Thanks B-well. I've got quite a lot of experience of taking pics for this kind of thing having partially re-built a car quite a few moons ago and posting on car forums about it.
The guy (Glen) at De Bridge where I bought the replacement synchro gave (well, sold!) me the correct amount.

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[lilac lill]

Well it must be the season for it.! My 5th gear went on leaving Keilder on Friday, and ended up limping down to N Wales - max 40mph which was soul destroying on the motorways. oh:
Slightly more relaxed having read through this, that it's not just Madge in her death throws (1988) and that it should be fixable.!:thumb:
My cousin is trying to see if there is anyone who can do it down here, but feel more able to limp home again and get it sorted.
What would I do without you guys..?!?

 

[Melchior]

You can do more than 40 MPH in 4th, don't be too afraid of revving it a bit. As long as you don't cruise at 70 MPH in 4th then you won't do any harm.

Just had an email from De Bridge, looks like I'll have to decide if I want to spend quite a lot extra on the taller 5th. That's what's in there at the moment and I always thought it was alright. But now I see this price difference and wonder if I'll try the shorter one!!

Price for the short gear 206.64 euro (38x53)
Price for the long gear 352.32 euro (35x58)

That's a big difference in price!!

 

[DM14742]

Chriky is everyone's fifth gear going at the same time? just had mine repaired, very worn Syncro teeth on the gear & selector sleeve badly worn, my Garage have been brilliant & sourced second hand parts which are like new, all refitted with new Gearbox oil for £273 all in (new parts would have been £500 alone). They have advised me that there is a small amount of play in the Diff Pinion & crown wheel which will need sorting out in the future (after many more Thousands of miles as the Mechanic put it) that will be gearbox out & I might get the clutch replaced at that point. :thumb:

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[lilac lill]

You can do more than 40 MPH in 4th, don't be too afraid of revving it a bit. As long as you don't cruise at 70 MPH in 4th then you won't do any harm.

Melchior, even with 5th gear we only have a top speed of 55mph.. can get to 60 downhill with the sail up and a good wind..
I tried to keep her at a level where she wasn't screaming that another gear was needed. :Sad:
Hope she can be sorted as easily as some of you have managed.

 

[Melchior]

Oops, I hadn't clicked that yours is a more mature Ducato

However I believe the gearboxes are very similar (not exactly the same). You can confirm this by looking at the end of the gearbox on the passenger side of the engine bay, if you see a black end plate/cover on the gearbox then that's where 5th is.

 

[Melchior]

Went to De Bridge again today to pick up the replacement 5th. Decided to stick with the longer ratio, mainly because it is a relatively light motorhome. Those of you with 4 tonne and above are more likely to need the lower ratio I would think.

My plan was to get it fitted today but one of our pets had to have an operation so I'm sat at home doing the TLC thing. Motorhome gets TLC tomorrow and with any lucky the thing will finally be fixed.

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[Geo]

You will be glad you went with the higher gear set, changing to the lower set, apart from being more suited to towing would have seen an extra 600 to 800 rpm to your normal cruising speed
Geo

 

[Melchior]

That was my thought too, Geo.

Glen is the guy at De Bridge and he was suggesting that I seriously consider the lower set. It is a good €140ish cheaper so I was very tempted. I have read of a lot of motorhomers using it and being happy so it sounded good. But - those guys were running 4t and heavier MH's. In that case I can imagine you need the lower ratio but ours is max 3.4t and apart from the gap between 4 and 5, I never found 5th's ratio to be a problem so spent the money and stuck with what I got already.

 

[JockandRita]

I'm not sure what ratio our is, ie, higher or lower, and won't know until the gearing is exposed, hopefully next week sometime.
I suspect we have the higher ratio despite being originally plated at 4.5 tonnes, (but now plated at 5 tonnes), but with no tachometer, I've no idea what the revs are in 4th and 5th @ 50 mph :Sad:

Regards,

Jock.

P.S. Geo, we are currently at the Canterbury Park & Ride, (having just sailed back to blighty), and met the former owner of your old Coachmen Mirada.

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[Melchior]

Success! All done, test drive complete.

The only thing I didn't do was to fit the smaller of the two gears. There wasn't any damage to the existing one and it was looking and feeling very difficult to remove the nut holding it on, so it stayed.

Filled up with oil into the reverse switch hole:


This was the oil which came out, not totally black but very dark brown. The amount which came out was more or less the same as what went in so it had clearly been 'over' filled in the past.



I can only conclude the failure was caused not caused by too little oil but one or more of these:

• Using 5th at too low a speed (accepted minimum seems to be 50 mph / 80 km/h.
• Using 5th too soon after startup (oil not circulated into external casing and not warm enough)
• Using 5th at too high a load e.g. motorway driving, uphill. Best to drop to 4th in this situation from what I gather.

So there you have it, the story ends here Hopefully the photos and explanations are clear but if anyone reading this needs more detail etc., please let me know and I'll do what I can to provide it.


Incidentally the total cost of the parts for me was:
Synchro: €325
High ratio 5th: €350


Ouch!


Cheers,
M

 

[Melchior]

Did more driving in it today to give it a run and make sure everything is OK. No problems at all, included a good 20+km in 5th on motorways and faster roads. I did have a heart in mouth moment as I went for 3rd at one point and could have sworn it jumped out. I think it was me being too cautious though and I hadn't engaged it fully as thank goodness it didn't happen again.

Was lovely to get out in the MH but both I and Miss M got some MH depression as we have to work tomorrow and of course didn't have the chance to sleep in it!!

On the subject of the high and low ratios, I am very glad I stuck with the higher 5th option. Cruising at 100km/h the engine is doing just enough revs to keep it on song but not so much that it's noisy. I am sure that with the lower gear, the noise would be too much. For heavier vehicles I would strongly suggest it though.

 

[jhorsf]

ebay seems to have some oe parts

Link Removed

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[JockandRita]

I suspect we have the higher ratio despite being originally plated at 4.5 tonnes, (but now plated at 5 tonnes), but with no tachometer, I've no idea what the revs are in 4th and 5th @ 50 mph :Sad:

Yep, it is definitely the higher ratio 5th gear set, Fiat Part No 9463263088, (5 VEL 58 x 35)
The synchro hub assembly (Synchronizer), Fiat Part No 9463263388 (5 VEL), comes a 3 x piece kit.
Duacato 230, (1994 - 2002) Fifth Gear and Synchro Assembly

Can anyone here please confirm asap, if the synchro hub can be reversed...........providing that it hasn't already been reversed?

Cheers for now,

Jock.

 

[Melchior]

It looks like it can be and I have read one or two posts online about people doing it.

However, I don't think it's worth risking. It is clear that the entire thing is somewhat weak and if the ring has worn on one side then it may have weakened it overall. You wouldn't want to reverse it, put everything back together with some new expensive parts and have it let go shortly afterwards, destroying the newly fitted bits, would you!

So in short, yes it seems to be reversible, no I would not suggest you try it.

 

[DM14742]

I can only conclude the failure was caused not caused by too little oil but one or more of these:

• Using 5th at too low a speed (accepted minimum seems to be 50 mph / 80 km/h.
• Using 5th too soon after startup (oil not circulated into external casing and not warm enough)
• Using 5th at too high a load e.g. motorway driving, uphill. Best to drop to 4th in this situation from what I gather.

I've just had my 5th gear replaced (gear & selector sleeve badly damaged) I have to say that I have always gone in for "Vehicle sympathy" when driving ie: not driving in too lower gear, trying to keep it in 5th as much as possible without the engine labouring etc. It seems going by your comments that I am contributing to early wear of these components due to my driving habits.
I tend to change up to 5th at just over 40 mph on the flat & will go up a quite steep hill in 5th so long as the engine is pulling, could you please tell how this causes wear, does it impose excessive stress on the gears? just interested in knowing really.

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[DM14742]

Quote from Melchior :I can only conclude the failure was caused not caused by too little oil but one or more of these:

• Using 5th at too low a speed (accepted minimum seems to be 50 mph / 80 km/h.
• Using 5th too soon after startup (oil not circulated into external casing and not warm enough)
• Using 5th at too high a load e.g. motorway driving, uphill. Best to drop to 4th in this situation from what I gather.

I've just had my 5th gear replaced (gear & selector sleeve badly damaged) I have to say that I have always gone in for "Vehicle sympathy" when driving ie: not driving in too lower gear, trying to keep it in 5th as much as possible without the engine labouring etc. It seems going by your comments that I am contributing to early wear of these components due to my driving habits.
I tend to change up to 5th at just over 40 mph on the flat & will go up a quite steep hill in 5th so long as the engine is pulling, could you please tell how this causes wear, does it impose excessive stress on the gears? just interested in knowing really.

 

[John-Laika]

I was sorry to read about your troubles

I was sorry to read about your troubles with the 5th gear issue as I have been there myself.
see link from thread earlier this year.

Broken Link Removed

Its one of life's strange twists that I live in England and was in Holland when my 5th gear went and Melchior lives in Holland and was in England when his went.oh:

 

[Melchior]

Quote from Melchior :I can only conclude the failure was caused not caused by too little oil but one or more of these:

• Using 5th at too low a speed (accepted minimum seems to be 50 mph / 80 km/h.
• Using 5th too soon after startup (oil not circulated into external casing and not warm enough)
• Using 5th at too high a load e.g. motorway driving, uphill. Best to drop to 4th in this situation from what I gather.

I've just had my 5th gear replaced (gear & selector sleeve badly damaged) I have to say that I have always gone in for "Vehicle sympathy" when driving ie: not driving in too lower gear, trying to keep it in 5th as much as possible without the engine labouring etc. It seems going by your comments that I am contributing to early wear of these components due to my driving habits.
I tend to change up to 5th at just over 40 mph on the flat & will go up a quite steep hill in 5th so long as the engine is pulling, could you please tell how this causes wear, does it impose excessive stress on the gears? just interested in knowing really.

I have no scientific evidence but I think you are exactly right. I'm also pretty mechanically sympathetic and, like you, would shift to 5th when the engine sounded like it was revving too high in 4th. Of course I have no idea how the previous owners drove it and it was just less than one year since we bought it that 5th broke.

It is ironic that by driving in a sympathetic way, you can break the gearbox! Now we know and we can use 4th for longer and hopefully it will prolong the life of 5th. Don't be afraid to hang on to 4th until 50+ mph, the engine is tough and won't break because of this. Your eardrums might though ;-)

Its one of life's strange twists that I live in England and was in Holland when my 5th gear went and Melchior lives in Holland and was in England when his went.oh:

Almost, I was in France on my way to the Le Mans 24h

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