Driving Licences and the Malvern Show 2009

Discussion in 'American RV's' started by moandick, Aug 21, 2009.

  1. moandick

    moandick Read Only Funster

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    Many of the RV trade stands at the Motorhome Show at Malvern 2009 were quite openly stating that as from April this year a car licence holder over 21 years of age can drive any weight of motorhome:

    My response to that statement is thus:

    I have long been a supporter of the RVDA and their aims in supporting the RV Industry - BUT I do advise caution when stating openly that motorhomes are NOT subject to normal licence regulations.

    The recently issued IVA Scheme does indeed state that the motorhome now comes under the title of M1 (Special Purpose Vehicle) as a passenger vehicle rather than a goods vehicle - however as far as I can see that has nothing to do with regulations concerning driving a vehicle over 3½ tonnes.

    The European Directive 2006/126/EC on driving licences is an attempt to harmonise driving licences throughout the European Community by laying down the relevant class of driving licence that we are all by now familiar with - B for a car, C for an HGV and D for a coach etc - and article 6 para 4b of that document does indeed state that:

    (short-version): Vehicles over 3½ tonnes may be driven by a person over 21 years old who has held a car licence for two years or more, provided that vehicle when stationary can only be used in the recreational area by non-commercial bodies for social purposes etc.

    HOWEVER that paragraph is headed by the statement:

    Member States may, after consultation with the Commission, authorise the driving on their territory of..........

    The way that I read that - is that somebody such as the Dept of Transport or DVLA would have to consult with the EU Commission in order to gain permission to waive the C or C1 licence for motorhomes - and that even if they did get that permission it would possibly only be relevant whilst the driver was in this Country.

    From my information so far nobody from the Dept of Transport or DVLA has carried out that consultation - in fact, as was reported to me:

    "We have just busted our backsides getting horseboxes categorised as HGV - do you think we would be silly enough to apply for permission to allow 21 year old petrol-heads to drive a bl***y great RV!"

    I am certainly not an expert on driving licences, nor am I privvy to the internal workings of the RVDA, nor do I have access to any of their documentation, so I could be totally wrong in my assumptions but I do sincerely urge caution before you go buying that 18 tonne tag axle RV - and think on...... that document was published in April of this year - why has it taken so long to come to light? - why has nobody other than the RVDA heard about it? - why haven't the driving schools, the Dept of Transport or DVLA not published it?

    If I am wrong then I will be the first to admit it BUT let us all see the proof in black and white before we celebrate!
     
  2. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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  3. Jim

    Jim Ringleader

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    Some dealers have been saying this to individuals for years, that is why the are so many drivers of large RVs on a car licence. :Eek!: That they are saying it openly means they are becoming more condfident that they are right. I know that a leading figure in the RVDA has long been of the opinion that motorhomes, whatever the weight, can be driven by anyone with a full car licence. Maybe we are nearing a point where this issue will be cleared up. It seems that the RVDA have an excellent relationship with the powers that be. Lets hope, one way or another the issue gets sorted.
     
  4. Boo

    Boo Read Only Funster

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    So...........in short does that mean I could go buy myself a 48ft RV and drive it on my car license legally?:Eeek:
    If that is the case then I better get looking for one :Smile:


    Boo
     
  5. Road Runner

    Road Runner Read Only Funster

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    Maybe then diabetics can rest easy in there bed not dreading loosing there licence if being transferred from tablet controlled to insulin controlled.

    Drug addicts alcoholic can drive HGV but not tablet diabetics.

    I had to surrender my HGV a long while ago because of diabetes and doubt they would re issue it on health matters.

    Castle RVs sell mainly slides and have said on there website for a while that al their RV are car licences drivable.

    I think most RV problems occur when manoeuvring and it seems looking at all buses the battle scars are evenly spread on over 7.5 ton and over.

    In my life have driven most all vehicle except army style.

    Sorry for going off topic slightly
     
  6. Snowbird

    Snowbird Funster Life Member

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    What I would like to know is why is April the golden month for all these changes???.Have personaly heard this for 3 Aprils now.:Rofl1:
     
  7. Boo

    Boo Read Only Funster

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    APRIL FOOLS OBVIOUSLY DUDE! :Rofl1:

    Boo
     
  8. moandick

    moandick Read Only Funster

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    All directives issued by DfT come into effect on 29th April OR 29th October see <here> -

    but I prefer your explanation, Boo :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2009
  9. PeteH

    PeteH Funster

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    Hi Dick (and all)

    Just got my licence back from DVLA having had my (now annual, now I`m a post 65 old git)HGV Medical. In the little book that come with it (page 12) there are the definitions of the Code(s) which are alongside the various catagories on entitlement. against C1E it states 01, 107, (01 is an eyesight Correction, ie I (you) wear glasses to drive) 107 Is "not more than 8250kg" which is the MAXIMUM GROSS PLATED TRAIN MASS you may drive.

    However IF the (motorhome) etc where classed as a Minibus then D1+E (Code 01 101 119) would allow a GROSS TRAIN MASS of 12 tonne Because code 119 States "Weight limit does not apply"

    So therefore the logical classification for R-V`s / Motorhomes is D? NOT C?

    Pete
     
  10. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    i agree but have got it written in another dvla book that m,homes are classed as ci if the motor home is over7.5 tonnes you need category c. the book i got that from is D100. i always say if the m,home is a pusher there shouldnt be a problem it must be a bus. . the silliest bity is b+e allows you to drive a vehicle upto 3.5t and tow any weight trailer ,so long as it doesnt exceed the tow units trai wgt. iveco 3,5 train is 8,700kg can be driven on b+e .
     
  11. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    agreed peter.

    as the majority of RV's are based on coach chassis and not goods vehicle chassis they should be classed as 'mini buses'

    we all carry people not goods:thumb:

    but who am i to argue with those in power that decide otherwise:Sad:
     
  12. G4GMO

    G4GMO Read Only Funster

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    Medical and over 3500kg from 2012

    I was under the impression that from about 2012 anyone with the C+C1 category would need a medical regardless of age, currently 70. Is this likely to be the case?
     
  13. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    if you have c or c+e you will already be having medicals every 5 yrs after the age of 45. ci/ci+e restricted you do not require one yet. it gets further complicated with comercial drivers needing certificate of profesional competance. used to be for transport managers only.
     
  14. PeteH

    PeteH Funster

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    Hi

    Previous Post:-

    Quote:- I was under the impression that from about 2012 anyone with the C+C1 category would need a medical regardless of age, currently 70. Is this likely to be the case.

    To keep a C or C+E beyond age 65 it already an annual Medical and will cost a MINIMUM of £75-00, (just had mine).

    What I want to know is will this "goalpost" be moved to 70 now HMG wants the retirement age shifting?. (Don`t hold your breath waiting) after all the fee is subject to VAT and guess who gets that!!!!.

    pete
     
  15. mikamada

    mikamada Read Only Funster

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    As has been posted in another forum there are two classifications. One, which is a type approval for a vehicle (RV's are type M1 Special Vehicle). This has limited bearing on the entitlement to drive unless the vehicle is used for trade purposes. The second classification which is the classification of interest is the Entitlement to drive which is the code that is issued with your driving license.

    It is clear from UK and European legislation that a C1 driving entitlement is restricted to a vehicle with a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of 7,500kg. The MAM is commonly referred to as the maximum Gross Vehicle Weight or the plated weight.

    Without going into the legal details, for a number the question what weight can be used in a towed or combination vehicle with a C1E driving entitlement.

    The law in this area is very clear. To cater for drivers who were granted licenses prior to January 1997 the UK requested from the European Council a Decision which details the entitlements for drivers with C1E codes. This was granted and this clearly states that the maximum weight for a such a vehicle combination is 8,250kg. UK driving licences issued after January 1997 specified the Code C1E when appropriate. Prior to that date a B (or A/A1 on the old codes) entitlement allowed a C1E equivalence.

    My reading of the UK and European legislation indicates that the weight value that is considered is the MAM. Thus, is you have a Motorhome which is plated to 7,500kg (the MAM) then the largest weight trailer that can be towed in combination with the Motorhome is a trailer with a weight of 750kg (MAM).

    It should be noted that the figures are the Maximum Authorised Weight (plated weight) and not the actual weight at time of use which may be lower.

    For example a person with a C1E driving entitlement cannot drive an RV with a plated or MAM of 7500kg and a vehicle such as a Smart Car (which has a plated or MAM of 960kg) as this would exceed the combined weight restriction of 8,250kg. This applies even if when weighed on a weighbridge the RV shows an actual weight of, say for example, 7,000kg and the Smart Car and actual weight of 730kg (which is the published kerb weight of the Smart Car).

    If a person with only a C1E entitlement drives a combination with a combined MAM of greater than 8250kg then they are breaking the law and may also be in breach of the terms and conditions of their insurance.
     
  16. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    again everything you quote is correct. but can an rv be classed as a mini bus ..D1 then you can drive upto 1200 kg .if you have D1+e restriction 119weight limit does not apply. i think this is where they mean you can drive any weight. alan.
     
  17. Groundhog

    Groundhog Read Only Funster

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    I am currently in the process of gaining my category C licence in order to drive a motorhome with a MAM of 9,969 kg.

    To quote directly from the DVLA information leaflet INS57P, Section - Minibuses, lorries and buses, Sub-section Motorhomes:

    "When driving a motorhome it is the maximum authorised mass (the total weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load it can carry) which is relevant to the driving entitlement you need.

    To drive a motorhome with a maximum authorised mass of between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes, you need a category C1 licence.

    To drive a motorhome with a maximum authorised mass of over 7.5 tonnes you need a category C licence".


    So to be safe rather than sorry I am going to make certain I am correctly licenced according to the published requirements of the DVLA. Being uninsured in the event of an accident due to not being correctly licenced is just not an option for me.

    However, I guess it is for individuals to interpret the requirements for themselves.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2009
  18. mikamada

    mikamada Read Only Funster

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    Alan,

    Unlikely.

    A D1 entilement is to drive:

    "
    [FONT=&quot]motor vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and having more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat but not more than 16 seats in addition to the driver's seat; motor vehicles in this subcategory may be combined with a trailer having a maximum authorized mass which does not exceed 750 kilograms[/FONT]"

    A D1E entitlement is to drive:

    "combinations of vehicles where the tractor vehicle is in subcategory D1 and its trailer has a maximum authorized mass of over than 750 kilograms, provided that:
    -firstly, the maximum authorized mass of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12 000 kilograms and the maximum authorized mass of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the tractor vehicle;
    -secondly, the trailer is not used for the transport of persons."

    So basically you have to show that you have 9 seats (including drivers seat) which are capable of transporting passengers. That would required the seat positions to be belted and secured as per the vehicle category requirements. I know of no production motorhomes which have 9 belted seats.

    Nice try though.....:Smile:
     
  19. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

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    again i can agree with you .but seat belts can be fitted . the restriction 119 is a very important part i was trying to make regards towing .there has been in the past a big campaign about what is a comercial/bus you may remember the posters . i say is a pusher a bus ?dont know of any pusher trucks. i have piles of dvla literature here dating back to early 90,s . i do have class 1 and bus so for me its not a problem yet. groundhog i think you are doing the right thing . better to be safe than sorry. i can understand both sides of the discusion and see points from both sides . having been involved in transport management i have discussed this with several vosa people and they say ci+e for m,homes yet agree they know rv,s are usually built on buses. so we still dont win.
     
  20. mikamada

    mikamada Read Only Funster

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    VWAlan,
    It is irrelevant if the vehicle is a pusher or diesel what counts for D1 and D1E entitlement to drive is if the vehicle has eight or more seats (in addition to the driver) and not more than 16 seats in addition to the driver.

    The category used for type approval of the vehicle is irrelevant for the purpose of establishing entitlement to drive for the purposes of diving license harmonisation. The preamble to the 1991 Council Directive makes this clear.

    You are straying into a different set of regulations regarding the operational safety of a vehicle and would be bound by the laws so applicable. If you go down that path you may also need to consider whether such a modification of a previously type approved vehicle would require re-certification and compliance with other legislation.

    That is however your choice.:Smile:

    All I am doing is stating my interpretation of the laws as they currently stand with regard to entitlement to drive.
     
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