Drama at Peterborough - underhand indeed! (1 Viewer)

joncris · Apr 19, 2011

OK Elvis there are no prices on their site so do you know the approx cost fitted

If I'm correct about there being no prices on the site I suggest they get some on cos I imagine many are like me when I visit a site & there are no pricing guidelines & tend to shy away wondering why?

bigfoot · Apr 19, 2011

I like the look and operation of the system as for the alleged perps,all I can say with Buddys like that who needs enemies

hilldweller · Apr 19, 2011

Elvis said:
The pin does not protrude too much so is not easy to locate or tamper with...

Listen, I'm trying to help you. The design is flawed. Improve it or risk the consequences.

hilldweller · Apr 19, 2011

You have to find the correct setting when you first puchase the system but then the setting stays the same, until you change either MH or Toad; no need to 'twiddle'...

Kids will, I'd include a locking screw of some sort.

The emergency brake in cab releases the toad & the toad brakes to a controlled stop (back brake lights on), it does not stay connected to MH so does not need to stop MH too

I hope that does not mean what you've typed ! I read that as press the button and jettison the toad.

And, the servo brake must stay on until the pin is replaced,

Because the toad must stay stopped until recovered!

oh: What if it breaks away going down hill e.g...near a cliff e.g....near a school playground e.g..need I go on :Eeek:

.....mmmmm....

I stand corrected on this one. Well, to some extent. Clearly it's open to vandalism so needs a bit of a re-think.

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

Thanks

hilldweller said:
Listen, I'm trying to help you. The design is flawed. Improve it or risk the consequences.

I know and thanks but the design is not flawed at all and needs no improvement. It has been designed perfectly and the only way it can be but thanks for your opinion; all opinions are valued :Smile:

buttons · Apr 19, 2011

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oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-GB</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m

ispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m

efJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I’ll come clean and say the only toad that I am aware of is the one in the hole so these questions are only as an observer.
I have read that frames are being condemned as illegal so I would be interested to hear from an expert.
Are you saying your mechanism is totally legal? Are you saying it is totally legal throughout Europe? Are you saying that Spanish police will recognise it as totally legal, presuming that Spanish police will not have a list of legal and non legal systems. Trying to explain to a Spanish cop that you have a trailer not a toad could be difficult.

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

Forestboy said:
I had this system or very similar in America. Travelled 56000 miles in all 48 states it was brilliant especially coming down the Rockies.:thumb:

Yes, the Americans really have this RV/MH lark down to a fine art but they have been doing it a bit longer than than us :Smile:

This system is based on the American ones so the system you experienced would work the same way....glad you approved of it :thumb:

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

True

buttons said:
 I’ll come clean and say the only toad that I am aware of is the one in the hole so these questions are only as an observer.
I have read that frames are being condemned as illegal so I would be interested to hear from an expert.
Are you saying your mechanism is totally legal? Are you saying it is totally legal throughout Europe? Are you saying that Spanish police will recognise it as totally legal, presuming that Spanish police will not have a list of legal and non legal systems. Trying to explain to a Spanish cop that you have a trailer not a toad could be difficult.

It is true that some systems are now or will be illegal, after 2014, when new legislation comes into force. There is a 'legal' page on the Unibrake site that lists the legal requirements in detail.

This system was created after notification of the future laws so does comply with all present and future legislation.

I have heard that some companies are saying that the law will be retrospective and this concerns me as this is not the case as it would defeat the object of the laws - safety! Not to mention how impossible it would be to prove that you bought your system before the laws came into force.

Unibrake will be supplied with a certificate of compliance, that will be translated into other EU languages so that it can be handed to the police, if they stop you. I know of at least one other company that does this too and I would insist on having one from any company before I travelled abroad, with an A-frame. :thumb:

It may take a while before all illegal systems are taken off the road and the EU police refrain from stopping people with legal systems but if you know you are legal, then refuse to pay any on the spot fines! And they should leave you alone, I know many people who have done this with success, including myself; I have no time for corrupt policemen! :Angry:

Jim · Apr 19, 2011

Elvis, we have advertisers who pay fees to be able to advertise their products in their signature :Smile:

Please remove yours or you will be tagged as a trader and sent a bill

Meanwhile, your unibrake website really needs a makeover, its hard on the eyes with poor design, if you would like a quote for a rebuild send me a PM. i could make it look like it should

buttons · Apr 19, 2011

Elvis said:
It may take a while before all illegal systems are taken off the road and the EU police refrain from stopping people with legal systems but if you know you are legal, then refuse to pay any on the spot fines! And they should leave you alone, I know many people who have done this with success, including myself; I have no time for corrupt policemen! :Angry:

If I refuse to pay an on the spot fine in the uk my vehicle tends to end up on the back of an official low loader on it's way to the compound. Are you saying the spanish police are more obliging than our own police.
With your official document and safety certificate printed in all EU languigies surely this last paragraph is totally irrelevant, isn't it?

joncris · Apr 19, 2011

Elvis why won't you tell us the price?

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

I have

joncris said:
Elvis why won't you tell us the price?

I have, check you inbox :thumb: Have to keep Jim happy, even though he wont give me a badge :Sad:

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

keeping Jim happy ..lol

Jim said:
Elvis, we have advertisers who pay fees to be able to advertise their products in their signature Please remove yours or you will be tagged as a trader and sent a bill

OK Jim, I have been very good and taken it off :Blush:

Do I get my smiley badge now???

pappajohn · Apr 19, 2011

Spanish motoring law plainly states 'no motor vehicle shall be towed by another motor vehicle unless all wheels are off the road.

a toad may be classed as a trailer when towed but its still a motor vehicle...otherwise it wouldnt need tax, test and insurance.

so, i'm sorry, but this system still isnt legal in spain.

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

buttons said:
If I refuse to pay an on the spot fine in the uk my vehicle tends to end up on the back of an official low loader on it's way to the compound. Are you saying the spanish police are more obliging than our own police.
With your official document and safety certificate printed in all EU languigies surely this last paragraph is totally irrelevant, isn't it?

You are missing the point Buttons, the UK Police will fine you if you have broken the law. Some corrupt overseas Police will try and get cash from Tourists even if they are legal and have not broken the law! :Eeek:

And it is because Tourists panic and cough up when they shouldnt, that these corrupt officers keep trying their luck :Angry:

I have lived and worked all over the world and have been targetted by this type of officer in the past and have never coughed up and I am still here to tell the tale :Smile:

There are some dodgy countries, where I wouldnt argue the toss but none are in the EU.

Luckily this is rare and the Certificate should get rid of them.

jhorsf · Apr 19, 2011

pappajohn said:
Spanish motoring law plainly states 'no motor vehicle shall be towed by another motor vehicle unless all wheels are off the road.

a toad may be classed as a trailer when towed but its still a motor vehicle...otherwise it wouldnt need tax, test and insurance.

so, i'm sorry, but this system still isnt legal in spain.

I agree and untill you challenge this through the courts I do not see how you can state it is legal in Spain when they do not allow you to tow a car

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

No I am sorry

pappajohn said:
Spanish motoring law plainly states 'no motor vehicle shall be towed by another motor vehicle unless all wheels are off the road.

a toad may be classed as a trailer when towed but its still a motor vehicle...otherwise it wouldnt need tax, test and insurance.

so, i'm sorry, but this system still isnt legal in spain.

I am afraid it is as it [HI]IS[/HI] classed as a Trailer, once it's hooked up (this system complies with trailer legal requirements) . In addition, EU law over-rides 'local law' And if the towing system is legal in the UK, then the law in the country of origin (EU state) over-rides 'local law' yet again :thumb:

Much investigation and legal research took place before the system was created, to ensure UK/EU compliance

andi4x4 · Apr 19, 2011

Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by pappajohn Link Removed
Spanish motoring law plainly states 'no motor vehicle shall be towed by another motor vehicle unless all wheels are off the road.

a toad may be classed as a trailer when towed but its still a motor vehicle...otherwise it wouldnt need tax, test and insurance.

so, i'm sorry, but this system still isnt legal in spain.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I agree and untill you challenge this through the courts I do not see how you can state it is legal in Spain when they do not allow you to tow a car

There used to be something similar in the UK where owners of "Off Road Only" 4x4's ( i.e. competition vehicles) were not allowed to tow them on their wheels on the road due to the fact that they were often not taxed - to get around the "Motor Vehicle" description ( i.e a self propelled vehicle) we used to remove the drive shafts so that, even if an officer decided to unhook the 4x4 from the towing vehicle, he would not be able to drive it anywhere, thus , by definition, no longer Self Propelled, it had to be classed as a trailer !

This is obviously a bit much for a toad, but, maybe there is another, simpler way of immobilisiing a car to achieve the same effect ?

I know nothing of Spanish road traffic law, so, is it a case that the car must have all of its wheels off the road, or just the driven wheels ?

andi4x4 · Apr 19, 2011

B****r ! Too slow on the keyboard ! Your reply dropped in before I posted !

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

jhorsf said:
I agree and untill you challenge this through the courts I do not see how you can state it is legal in Spain when they do not allow you to tow a car

That is not actually true as the law is the law and it is quite clear, see my previous post

oh: If you beleive that the local Spanish Bobby is an expert on EU law, then you give him too much credit

.

This is not a 'grey area' , it is quite clear :Smile:

And as no English tourist has actually been dragged through a Spanish court for towing with an A-Frame, I am guessing that the Spanish lawyers know that it's not a grey area either

oh:

chatter · Apr 19, 2011

Sorry guys spanish law says all wheels of a towed car must be off the road, only breakdown trucks are allowed to tow vehicles and only for a short distance if said vehicle has to go some distance it must be placed on a trailer and that applies to brakedown vehicles as well

jhorsf · Apr 19, 2011

So Elvis your dad pays all the fines ?

Bailey58 · Apr 19, 2011

joncris said:
Elvis why won't you tell us the price?

For the benefit of others to consider its' merits I was told the price was (from an impaired memory) approaching £1900 with fitting at Battle, Sussex or Gatwick and no, that doesn't include the toad.

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

earlier post

chatter said:
Sorry guys spanish law says all wheels of a towed car must be off the road, only breakdown trucks are allowed to tow vehicles and only for a short distance if said vehicle has to go some distance it must be placed on a trailer and that applies to brakedown vehicles as well

Please read my earlier post re EU law as it over-rides Spanish law.

Elvis · Apr 19, 2011

jhorsf said:
So Elvis your dad pays all the fines ?

No, only some foolish Tourists pay fines when they are not breaking the law

oh:

eddie · Apr 19, 2011

Why do people assume that if it is legal at home it is legal abroad?

Do we not fine tourists that break our speed limits? Speeds that are perfectly acceptable abroad

Would you not be in deep water in a "zero" tolerant country regarding drinking and driving if you had "some" alcohol in your system, as indeed you are allowed to have in the UK

Also, there has also been many arguements over the years often amoungst the American Trailer V English Trailer (5th Wheel if you like) about the legality of electric brakes on a trailer, and the need to remove the electric braking system and replace it with a manual or air system.

Elvis, if no Tourist has ever been taken through the courts as you state, why would you need to buy an electrically braked system if what is on the market considerably cheaper is 100% legal?

Not having a pop, I admire your enthusiasm Elvis but A frames are either legal or they're not!

Eddie

Elvis · Apr 20, 2011

oh the frustration

eddievanbitz said:
Why do people assume that if it is legal at home it is legal abroad?

Do we not fine tourists that break our speed limits? Speeds that are perfectly acceptable abroad

Would you not be in deep water in a "zero" tolerant country regarding drinking and driving if you had "some" alcohol in your system, as indeed you are allowed to have in the UK

Also, there has also been many arguements over the years often amoungst the American Trailer V English Trailer (5th Wheel if you like) about the legality of electric brakes on a trailer, and the need to remove the electric braking system and replace it with a manual or air system.

Elvis, if no Tourist has ever been taken through the courts as you state, why would you need to buy an electrically braked system if what is on the market considerably cheaper is 100% legal?

Not having a pop, I admire your enthusiasm Elvis but A frames are either legal or they're not!

Eddie

First of all some domestic laws are exempt but the EU override I have mentioned refers to products, the country of origin law prevails if in doubt but this is almost irrelevant as EU law has provided legislation that relates to A'frame towing systems, that applies to ALL member states to include Spain :Eeek:

, this law must be incorporated into domestic law in ALL member states, to include Spain :shout:

The fact is, all the Spanish Police are interested in, is whether the 'trailer' has it's own independent braking system, which this and some other systems do have..... having met many 'towers' who have gone to Spain with their A'frames, who have confirmed this and the majority have never been stopped at all and I have never personally met one who has been fined.... have you all?

JJ · Apr 20, 2011

I think I will just rent a small car when I get there... paperwork and regulations make my head hurt...

JJ :Cool:

chatter · Apr 20, 2011

Below is an old thread and contains the information with regard to spain and AFrames and legallity. I actually think they are a great idea but untill a test case is done and won and legislation passed so they are no longer a grey area over here or in Brussels you will not get the spanish to accept them. This has been aired time and time again but untill laws are passed its a case of your choice but dont moan when fined. To comply with specific regulations EU or otherwise unfortunately doesnt mean it complys with the law, it means its up to a certain standard to be deemed ok to use

Link Removed

I am not knocking AFrames at all but i do think you guys that are in that market need to push for legislatation to make them deffinately legal as opposed to being a grey area. It appears to be a very good product but you do need to get the lawmakers on your side.

buttons · Apr 20, 2011

Elvis said:
That is not actually true as the law is the law and it is quite clear, see my previous post oh: If you beleive that the local Spanish Bobby is an expert on EU law, then you give him too much credit .

This is not a 'grey area' , it is quite clear And as no English tourist has actually been dragged through a Spanish court for towing with an A-Frame, I am guessing that the Spanish lawyers know that it's not a grey area either oh:

I would be interested to know where you obtained these statistics from. Not a single English tourist has been fined for using an A-Frame.:Sad:

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