Double the electrics. (1 Viewer)

[Geordie and the Dragon]

Tech Mech/ General

Well I never, you boys spouting on so much about something no-one can SEE. Almost as bad as that lot who kick about a small amount of AIR in a pretty cover. (All the more reason for me to keep my mouth shut then), hee, hee.

The Dragon

 

[pappajohn]

Well I never, you boys spouting on so much about something no-one can SEE. Almost as bad as that lot who kick about a small amount of AIR in a pretty cover. (All the more reason for me to keep my mouth shut then), hee, hee.

The Dragon

passes the time i suppose

 

[Terry]

Can somebody please explain to me in simple terms that I can understand :thumb: what Bryan was trying to achieve IE did he want to boil the kettle have 2 heaters plus electric water heater and say a washing machine on all at the same time or what ?
terry
edit forgot to mention microwave, hair straighteners/ dryer HEEHEE

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[Geo]

Hi Terry I'm sure Bryan will answer but for the moment I will offer my take on it

In the UK there is every chance you will get a reasonable hook up so no problem there

However RVs are power hungry in as much as there is a lot of equipment available to use and not always the power to use it, especially in France or Spain, so.
The question really is

When I get to Spain and keep tripping out the meagre 6 amp supply oh: Can i double up the hook ups and get maybe a manageable 12 amp:thumb:
Seemples
Ive been inside Bryans head, Its dark scary place belive me
Geo

 

[Terry]

Hi Terry I'm sure Bryan will answer but for the moment I will offer my take on it

In the UK there is every chance you will get a reasonable hook up so no problem there

However RVs are power hungry in as much as there is a lot of equipment available to use and not always the power to use it, especially in France or Spain, so.
The question really is

When I get to Spain and keep tripping out the meagre 6 amp supply oh: Can i double up the hook ups and get maybe a manageable 12 amp:thumb:
Seemples
Ive been inside Bryans head, Its dark scary place belive me
Geo

So it is as i thought he wants 2 heaters and boil the kettle at the same time
If that is the case then I shall refer him to my earlier post to have 2 separate leads one down the right side sockets and one down the left :thumb: DOUBLING his power without all the fuss
terry

 

[Geo]

For the record I just know the next question is going to be

Where can I get a spring loaded or preferably relay operated self re setting fully automatic trip switch,
Such a device would of course negate any and all safety aspects built into a hook up/Motor Home electrical system
But that will be for another post and discussion
Geo

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[Xoxoc]

Hi Terry I'm sure Bryan will answer but for the moment I will offer my take on it

In the UK there is every chance you will get a reasonable hook up so no problem there

However RVs are power hungry in as much as there is a lot of equipment available to use and not always the power to use it, especially in France or Spain, so.
The question really is

When I get to Spain and keep tripping out the meagre 6 amp supply oh: Can i double up the hook ups and get maybe a manageable 12 amp:thumb:
Seemples
Ive been inside Bryans head, Its dark scary place belive me
Geo

:thumb: (Except the last bit, 'cos if it is so scary, why did you get a season pass :moon:)


.

 

[scotjimland]

Bryan

There is a SAFE way of getting more amps to run your RV mains appliances from a low amp EHU , it's called a Victron Multi Plus

Interested ?

http://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/easyplus-12v-24v-48v-1600va/

You may, or may not recall I fitted one, .. basically it uses battery power to supplement the EHU supply during peak load, then when the load drops it recharges the batteries. It is also a 1600 watt UPS ..

It will replace your feeble on board yank charger with a proper 70A multi stage charger and battery conditioner .. combined with a 1600 watt pure sine wave inverter..

Multi-functional power solution
The Phoenix EasyPlus is a multifunctional energy system consisting of a
powerful sinewave inverter, a sophisticated battery charger, a high speed
AC transfer switch and AC distribution in a single light weight and compact
enclosure. The system has been designed for those who want to enjoy the
comfort and freedom of a complete energy system without spending time on
the installation of separate components and difficult technical procedures
Optimum comfort and safety
The EasyPlus guarantees uninterrupted power supply, whenever and wherever
you are. Where shore or generator power is limited, the unique PowerAssist®
technology makes it possible to boost the total capacity by adding extra
energy from the batteries. Optimum safety is guaranteed with the integrated
RCD (Residual Current Device) protecting against earth leakage.

download this pdf for a full explanation Link Removed

This is Rolls Royce kit.. with a price tag to match ... but worth every penny .. in my very humble opinion ..

 

[grumps147]

For the record I just know the next question is going to be

Where can I get a spring loaded or preferably relay operated self re setting fully automatic trip switch,
Such a device would of course negate any and all safety aspects built into a hook up/Motor Home electrical system
But that will be for another post and discussion
Geo

I found an Aire in India you could hook the multi unit up and not blow up the sub-station when you fit the spring loaded automatic trip resetter switch:

Link Removed

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[welsh winger]

If that is the case then I shall refer him to my earlier post to have 2 separate leads one down the right side sockets and one down the left :thumb: DOUBLING his power without all the fuss
terry[/QUOTE]

I know you are joking, well i hope you are, this is where you could have 415 volts within easy reach inside the van,ie 2 live wires, not good.

when you come to using 2 power lead in spain or france, it gets even worst, spainish wiring is equally worring, with wire just twisted to make a joint, which is one level lower that a scotch lock

Nick

 

[Geo]

I found an Aire in India you could hook the multi unit up and not blow up the sub-station when you fit the spring loaded automatic trip resetter switch:

View attachment 6254

India my A**e thats Bryans pad:thumb:
Sorry nick got to dissagree with you
Twisted wires are one step UP from a scotch lock
Geo

 

[buttons]

two AC supplies in parallel will double the available current , but I'm not going to argue this point John .. we would be here all night ..agree to disagree.

To save you being here all night I sort my brother’s advice on this matter. Just received his reply, hope you don’t mind if I share it with you.

To look at the scenario in theory you need an understanding of some basic electrics that include both Thevenin’s and Nortons theorem, and an understanding of basic complex impedances in both serious and parallel, and none of the post so far reflect this level of electrical knowledge. Providing that you confirm a single phase supply to your post (extremely unlikely to be otherwise, unless there are 3 phase sockets on the post, which is not normal on a campsite, and would be against the guidance of BS7671), no problem (other than the legalities of paying for the supply). You won’t though necessarily get the full double current before tripping one of the breakers, but probably will as source impedance should be virtually identical. It does though risk a potentially higher fault current locally, but probably not double as was suggested, but it needs to be taken account of. Personally, as a practicing electrical engineer, I’d not be unhappy at doing this if I wanted to steal some extra current, but it’s generally not good practice, and would not be encouraged in BS7671 (the “IEE regulations”).

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[motorhomelover]

all i need is a full gas tank and a pan of water that makes a good cuppa

electric hook up is an over charged supply (charge as in money not volts/amps)

a solar system and 4x 110AH barreries with 2x 500w + 1x 600w inverters does almost all needs

do we need an electric chair to exacute some on on site or some thing ?? hehehee

question can you connect the supply out put from the 3x inverters and run 1500w input ???? my slow cooker is 1500w 240v


i awaite a reply on this one :Blush:

ian & carole

 

[Terry]

If that is the case then I shall refer him to my earlier post to have 2 separate leads one down the right side sockets and one down the left :thumb: DOUBLING his power without all the fuss
terry

I know you are joking, well i hope you are, this is where you could have 415 volts within easy reach inside the van,ie 2 live wires, not good.

when you come to using 2 power lead in spain or france, it gets even worst, spainish wiring is equally worring, with wire just twisted to make a joint, which is one level lower that a scotch lock

Nick[/QUOTE]
Hi Nick you can have 2 circuits :thumb: half of the sockets wired to one input with a separate input lot wired to the other-Tried to simplify it by saying left side and right
You would only have 240 v entering the van but twice -It would mean having two hook up cables and 2 fuse boxes-on 2 different circuits.One could supply say heater and lights the other say water heater and kettle :thumb:---if you get my drift
terry

 

[Terry]

all i need is a full gas tank and a pan of water that makes a good cuppa

electric hook up is an over charged supply (charge as in money not volts/amps)

a solar system and 4x 110AH barreries with 2x 500w + 1x 600w inverters does almost all needs

do we need an electric chair to exacute some on on site or some thing ?? hehehee

question can you connect the supply out put from the 3x inverters and run 1500w input ???? my slow cooker is 1500w 240v


i awaite a reply on this one :Blush:

ian & carole

Just buy a 2,000 w inverter :thumb:
terry

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[Geo]

 

[scotjimland]

To look at the scenario in theory you need an understanding of some basic electrics that include both Thevenin’s and Nortons theorem, and an understanding of basic complex impedances in both serious and parallel, and none of the post so far reflect this level of electrical knowledge. .

Is that a fact ... well, I bow to his superior knowledge...

I guess 45 years experience is irrelevant..

What your brother said , I said in easy to understand English, the OP didn't ask for a lesson in electrical theory ..

recall my fist and subsequent posts ?

Site EHU supplies are run in three phases + neutral .. one phase per socket .

it would work if both on the same phase but as you don't know this .. it's a big NO .. do not do this
__________________

One or both of the outlet's MCBs would trip first...

please please do not do this.. this is really bad advice .. having two phases in a van is highly dangerous ..

same for 230v AC .. 2 x 10 amp supplies ( same phase ) will supply 20A total

 

[motorhomelover]

Just buy a 2,000 w inverter :thumb:
terry

I knew that terry
i was asking about the possability of doing it
would it work ??

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[scotjimland]

The SAFE Solution

I am bumping this for Bryan in case it gets buried ..

THIS Is the only safe and practical way to do it .. I hope that is unambiguous

Bryan

There is a SAFE way of getting more amps to run your RV mains appliances from a low amp EHU , it's called a Victron Multi Plus

Interested ?

http://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/easyplus-12v-24v-48v-1600va/

You may, or may not recall I fitted one, .. basically it uses battery power to supplement the EHU supply during peak load, then when the load drops it recharges the batteries. It is also a 1600 watt UPS ..

It will replace your feeble on board yank charger with a proper 70A multi stage charger and battery conditioner .. combined with a 1600 watt pure sine wave inverter..



download this pdf for a full explanation Link Removed

This is Rolls Royce kit.. with a price tag to match ... but worth every penny .. in my very humble opinion ..

 

[Terry]

I knew that terry
i was asking about the possability of doing it
would it work ??

No use asking me I look for simple things that work :thumb: I am probably the elevator guy in Geo 's post Still cannot see what is wrong with 2 H/U leads and 2 circuits oh: I think Bryan is trying to cause mayhem
terry

 

[Geo]

Just fell off me chair laughing guys

The theorem was originally discovered by Hermann von Helmholtz
And then RE discovered 50 years lateroh: by Thevenins
Probably when he tried to use two hook up cables

This time next week it will be called Bryans Theorem

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[welsh winger]

Sorry nick got to dissagree with you
Twisted wires are one step UP from a scotch lock
Geo[/QUOTE]

Yep I think your right.oh:

Nick

 

[dazzer]

all i need is a full gas tank and a pan of water that makes a good cuppa

electric hook up is an over charged supply (charge as in money not volts/amps)

a solar system and 4x 110AH barreries with 2x 500w + 1x 600w inverters does almost all needs

do we need an electric chair to exacute some on on site or some thing ?? hehehee

question can you connect the supply out put from the 3x inverters and run 1500w input ???? my slow cooker is 1500w 240v


i awaite a reply on this one :Blush:

ian & carole

You need to get an RV, then all would become clear

 

[welsh winger]

To save you being here all night I sort my brother’s advice on this matter. Just received his reply, hope you don’t mind if I share it with you.

To look at the scenario in theory you need an understanding of some basic electrics that include both Thevenin’s and Nortons theorem, and an understanding of basic complex impedances in both serious and parallel, and none of the post so far reflect this level of electrical knowledge. Providing that you confirm a single phase supply to your post (extremely unlikely to be otherwise, unless there are 3 phase sockets on the post, which is not normal on a campsite, and would be against the guidance of BS7671), no problem (other than the legalities of paying for the supply). You won’t though necessarily get the full double current before tripping one of the breakers, but probably will as source impedance should be virtually identical. It does though risk a potentially higher fault current locally, but probably not double as was suggested, but it needs to be taken account of. Personally, as a practicing electrical engineer, I’d not be unhappy at doing this if I wanted to steal some extra current, but it’s generally not good practice, and would not be encouraged in BS7671 (the “IEE regulations”).

This is the kind of post I have been trying to avoid, far too complicated, it is telling people it can be done, any one who wants to try or is using 2 cables in my mind is a foolish person, when some thing goes wrong, from getting caught by the site warden, to giving them self or some one else a shock, the full weight of the law and the IEE reg will come in to play, the inquest will say accidental death, and if anyone still wants to try this there will be an inquest, I hope its just the fool who is hurt and not an innocent passer by.

it seems there are people who are seriously thinking about doing this, or rather keep talking about it untill one person says its OK. As an electrician of 35 years standing please let common sense prevail and use just the one wire, I am going to put my orange box away now
Nick

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[buttons]

Is that a fact ... well, I bow to his superior knowledge... I guess 45 years experience is irrelevant.. What your brother said , I said in easy to understand English, the OP didn't ask for a lesson in electrical theory .. recall my fist and subsequent posts ?

I’m sorry you feel like this about it Jim. Whatever has upset you in this post was purely an observation by the author and not meant to be demeaning in any way.
This post started with a request for clarification on a technical issue that in my mind had not been answered, I was becoming confused by opposing views that were leading nowhere. Some are perfectly happy with do not touch it is dangerous but not everyone. If I am faced with a problem than I like to understand fully what the problem is before I put it to bed. I had the opportunity for some free professional help and found the reply most interesting and informative. I thought that sharing it would give some understanding of the principles behind what were excellent practical recommendations. :thumb:

 

[buttons]

Hi,If I have 7 amp hookup can I connect my camper to two ehu connections instead of one and get 14 amps?
If so, is it as easy as using a splitter (see pic) in reverse?
ThanksBryan

This is the kind of post I have been trying to avoid, Nick

Nick why try and avoid an answer to the question? Bryan asked a perfectly reasonably question and I’m sure he was hoping for more than a yes no answer. I know nothing about his background but are you suggesting the answers have now gone over Bryans head?

.

 

[scotjimland]

This post started with a request for clarification on a technical issue that in my mind had not been answered,

Buttons..

here is the question,,, and the answer I gave, no theory just a simple answer, no ambiguity .. what did you not understand ?

Hi,

If I have 7 amp hookup can I connect my camper to two ehu connections instead of one and get 14 amps?

If so, is it as easy as using a splitter (see pic) in reverse?

Thanks
Bryan

Site EHU supplies are run in three phases + neutral .. one phase per socket .

it would work if both on the same phase but as you don't know this .. it's a big NO .. do not do this

Going into electrical theory would not , as you have found out, changed the answer.. the same advice was also given by another qualified electrician ..

I appreciate that the thread became confusing .. which is unfortunate , I asked for it to be closed, but Bryan persisted on how it could be done safely. My mistake was to reply to that.

It is difficult to give an informative and easily understood reply to a complex issue, my main concern was that Bryan or someone else would actually try to do this .. so saying NO and why not, was IMO , all that was required...

The issue was further clouded by introducing battery charging , a totally different topic for another thread.

Whether it could work or not is academic when lives are at risk ..

If anyone is in doubt about the hazards and dangers of playing with electricity , Google IMAGES .. Electrical burns... but be warned, it is not pretty.. .

I have only ever seen one casualty of an electric burn.. I never want to see another, the guy lost BOTH arms .. an experienced spark who didn't follow standard safety procedures and touched an 11kv bus bar ..

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[Xoxoc]

Jim,

Thanks for the heads up regarding the Victron. I do remember you having you one, and that it cost a kings ransom

When you were selling your RV I nearly got in touch to see if you would sell it separately as it would not affect your resale value on the RV by much. I didn't because I'm pretty sure that it would still have been a bit rich for me.

Regarding closing/deleting this thread, I will comment with my administrator hat on:

There are enough warnings and advice (including yours) that there are inherent dangers in attempting the suggested methods that I feel there is no need to delete the thread to protect members. Closing the thread would have been counter-productive by preventing more informed discussion and warnings.




All,

This thread was started to see if there was a simple way to use two ehu connections to increase the number of amps available. It seems that the answer is yes BUT the risks in checking the phases etc. are far too great to consider doing it. I certainly won't be doing it.

I have been asked why I would want to do it. The answer is simple and was given by Geo and is simply that on low current supplies I may trip the mcb too often and if I could simply use two supplies then I would.

I can't so I wont.

HTH

Bryan

 

[buttons]

Buttons..
If anyone is in doubt about the hazards and dangers of playing with electricity , Google IMAGES .. Electrical burns... but be warned, it is not pretty.. .
..

Thanks Jim for the invite but I have in fact seen most of them before, being involved in the generation industry for some time and having a good understanding of HV generation distribution and monitoring systems I am more than most aware of any potential hazards.

I think that you are absolutely correct, don’t do it.:thumb:
I also now know why we shouldn't do it.

 

[Geo]

Well im glad the message seems to have got through in the end to every ones satisfaction, Thank you Bryan for the epilogue
But can I just ask you to get a few clips in that cabling outside yer house:thumb:
see ya tomorrow afternoon
G

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