Despairing traders demand action over night-time camper van parking (1 Viewer)

[Wildman]

hands up all who would welcome motorhomes parked up overnight outside their door ..

I wouldn't have a problem with it even if the road was level and had space for you to park, once I am indoors I seldom look out of the windows so no problem at all.

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as wildcamping in a motorhome.

Ok lets call it off site parking then.
After 40 odd years motorhoming I have only used a site for a rally and one other time. If I chose to use a site to fill up, empty out or whatever then by paying I have the same rights as someone staying for a month. We prefer to stop away from other people apart from at rallies. We prefer the peace and quiet without needing to book in advance or even bother to look at a map. That does not make me a freeloader.

 

[darklord]

being a truck driver, and now a new motorhomer, I fully intend to do a mix of site and wild camping. One of the reasons i made the move from a caravan to a motorhome, was that I could travel at times when it would not be suitable to use a caravan, and stop for the night when I would,nt be able to get onto a site,..thereby opening up more destinations for us.
I dont intend to be a nuiscance, and as I get annoyed with truckers who abuse their size and the regs to park wherever they feel like it, I would also get annoyed at motorhomers who do the same.
With regard to the parking on seafronts etc, if the local councils can't see a way of making a few quid out of this, instead of sulking and moaning like old fishwives, then its probabl;y an indication that they should not be in public office. If the owner of a local business, heard (because you would be gone before he turned up), that you were using his company car park for overnighting, he would probably wait to see you, and ask for a nominal fee.
You get to pay a reasonable rate, he gets a little extra security, everyones happy.....shame councils dont think!!!!

 

[aba]

If the owner of a local business, heard (because you would be gone before he turned up), that you were using his company car park for overnighting, he would probably wait to see you, and ask for a nominal fee.
You get to pay a reasonable rate, he gets a little extra security, everyones happy.....shame councils dont think!!!!

there is the answer ask the cafe owners if you can occupy their staff car parking space for the night they may charge you a fiver or so and you may get breakfast thrown in:thumb::thumb::thumb:

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[gypsylady]

Scarborough Parking

We've stayed over in Scarborough a couple of times, in the bay just above the shows.

We were parked up when the QE2 Sailed past.

When we stayed we didnt block anyone's views (due to the cliffs), we parked in an area frequented by the town's youth who were looking or a place for drink and (poss) drugs (so no houses around), the road is extra wide in the bay so no road congestion, we ate out for every meal (why cook when you are so close to the town centre), we went on the shows and bought incidentals that we didnt know we needed but might come in handy (just like normal shopping).

Had we stayed in the caravan park. We would have eaten the food we had bought in our own supermarket before leaving home, we would have entertained our children with the games and equipment we carry in the van for campsite use, we might have driven to a nearby National Trust property as we are members and have free entry.

We paid £6 for a 24hr parking ticket, then last time we visited we saw that the by-laws were changing to prohibit anything over 1.5ton (so we will be unable to visit Scarborough when in the area), and no staying longer than 4hrs at a time (even during nightime hours).

Shame, I like Scarborough.

June

 

[pappajohn]

I don't know what age has to do with it .. have oldies lost the right to complain ? if there were motorhomes parking overnight on my street I certainly would, as I'm sure most on here would.

put it to the test..

hands up all who would welcome motorhomes parked up overnight outside their door ..

agreed Jim, age has nothing to do with it except the street is predominantly elderly residents.

there is parking on both sides of the road but i have yet to see a motorhome parked on the landward side of the road...only ever on the seaward side, which borders onto cliffs.

the same residents also complain, albeit via the local newspaper, about motorhomers eating and drinking in their vans during the day yet the nearest eating establishment is around a mile away.

whats needed is a few complains about the streets residents peeping down into motorhomes

 

[JJ]

..hands up all who would welcome motorhomes parked up overnight outside their door ..

Parking outside MY door? I don't want motor homers parking outside the door of my motorhome... next thing you know there will be 50 of the beggers...

JJ

You can park up on Quinta Majay though...

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[sedge]

I have a motorhome parked just to the left of my front door all the while we aren't out in it. Almost opposite my house there is a place where there are MANY motorhomes parked. It's a caravan/m'home dealers. Park in front of my front door? Certainly, at your own risk, but watch out for coppers and be careful with your hab steps, it's double yellow lines cos it is a bus stop with a raised kerb.

Frankly it may be better to wait till the c'van dealers is closed, and then park overnight in front of their gates - but be ready to move smartish in the morning on the days the new vans arrive on the low loader before the rush hour starts!

 

[GJH]

As we were out all day yesterday I have only been able to read this thread properly today and I think there are a few myths to be exposed.

1) Whether we like it or not, there is often a difference between simply parking a vehicle (whilst we go off and do whatever) and parking a vehicle then using it for some purpose. The difference, where it does exist (as in Scarborough Borough, which includes Whitby and other places as well as Scarborough itself) is defined in the Traffic Regulation Order. That is also the case where (as was mentioned in one post about Derbyshire) overnight parking is allowed for a small charge; that does not mean that occupation of a vehicle is allowed by the TRO. The opinions/wants of individual drivers counts for nothing, it is the TRO which matters.

2) It does not matter that parking places would not be used overnight. There may well have been good reasons why such restrictions were put in the TRO.

3) Neither supermarkets, other shops or, indeed, any business, pay rates to the local council. National business rates are simply collected by council on behalf of central government. There is no direct correlation between central government grants to local councils and the amounts collected in business rates by councils.

4) Some people find the sight of motorhomes offensive and intrusive. Whilst we may not agree, others are just as entitled to their opinions as we are.

5) Insinuating that councillors and council officers have their heads up their backsides or sulk and moan like fishwives is equivalent to calling some motorhomers freeloaders and guaranteed to be just as counter-productive. Whilst both are undoubtedly true in some cases, both are false in the vast majority of cases.

6) Why don't councils provide "aires" or allow parking for a fee?
a) They often don't know off the demand because nobody has approached them constructively and rationally.
b) Where people have expressed a demand it has been accompanied by insults.
c) They have to balance any such demand against opposition from residents.
d) It has been shown not to be economically viable.
e) They don't own the land (as is the case with Scarborough P&R sites which are owned by North Yorkshire County Council).
All the above from personal and e-mail contact with councils over the last 5 years.

 

[artona]

All fair enough Graham.

Have you asked them what they would actually do to someone parked up over night in a parking bay and sleeping in their van?

If they, or more likely a policemen asked them to move on and the occupant refused to move on until the morning (and the van was not causing obstruction) what laws could be brought down upon the occupant.

I am not suggesting anyone breaks the law, I certainly would not look to, or parks in such a way to cause annoyance or obstruction. We should not cause extra work for the police as we should all be on the same side but I do think we should be aware of our rights.

If we are actually parked illegally thats one thing but if we are parked somewhere that someone else simply does not want us to then thats a totally seperate issue. I would want to look past the councils for the whole and correct answer.

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[GJH]

All fair enough Graham.

Have you asked them what they would actually do to someone parked up over night in a parking bay and sleeping in their van?

If they, or more likely a policemen asked them to move on and the occupant refused to move on until the morning (and the van was not causing obstruction) what laws could be brought down upon the occupant.

I am not suggesting anyone breaks the law, I certainly would not look to, or parks in such a way to cause annoyance or obstruction. We should not cause extra work for the police as we should all be on the same side but I do think we should be aware of our rights.

If we are actually parked illegally thats one thing but if we are parked somewhere that someone else simply does not want us to then thats a totally seperate issue. I would want to look past the councils for the whole and correct answer.

Yes, I have asked Stew

First of all the question of legality differs as to whether parking is on or off street.

On street.
See Here.
There is no automatic restriction (other than obstruction of the highway) unless a local TRO is in force. The authority responsible for TROs will be normally the local unitary council, or the county council in two-tier areas. Where TROs are in force it is up to the relevant authority (not the police) to enforce the TRO. As Pappajohn pointed out, some councils have insufficient funds to enforce overnight - but they might well start to do so if it became a problem.
In most (if not all) areas now, parking has been decriminalised so the police would only become involved if there were an obstruction or a likelihood of public disorder breaking out (e.g. argument between residents and drivers).

Off street.
Council car parks are normally owned by district councils in two-tier areas, though some will be owned by counties. In all cases the parking which is allowed/not allowed will be covered by a TRO.
Enforcement is the responsibility of the authority making the TRO, with the same economic factors prevailing. The police would only become involved to prevent public disorder (e.g. threats to council staff).

In both cases, councils would normally issue Parking Charge Notices, which are legally enforceable. The ability to require a driver to move on would depend on the terms of the TRO and the powers available to any council street wardens. A council officer might advise a driver that his actions would lead to the issue of a PCN but that might not amount to a requirement to move on.

Where no TRO is in force and it is simply a case of being "parked somewhere that someone else simply does not want us" then that "someone else" and the local council has no power - though, as mentioned earlier, the police might become involved to avoid public disorder and might well defuse the situation by requiring the driver to move on. That is no different to the problems we and our neighbours suffered at the back end of last year and beginning of this with teachers from the local school parking on the street because they were too lazy to walk to a temporary car park whilst a new one was built. We could complain but had no power to take action as no offence was committed.

There is another element in that off-street parking might be on privately owned land. The landowner would have to take action in the civil courts (or issue an invoice as debated on many other threads). The local council would only become involved if the landowner was taking no action and residents were complaining, but that would not be an immediate act. Again, police would only become involved to prevent crime.

Hope this answers sufficiently

 

[JJ]

By the heck Graham... you know some stuff hey? Your brain must be bigger than an RV...(one of the very big ones with loads of those slidey out thingies)

JJ :Cool:

 

[GJH]

Too many years in the fields of analysis and fact finding, JJ

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[scotjimland]

Too many years in the fields of analysis and fact finding...

so, can you advise on whether gas attacks take place .. or not ?

 

[GJH]

so, can you advise on whether gas attacks take place .. or not ?

Absolutely, Jim. I can state quite confidently that they either take place or they don't

 

[pappajohn]

Absolutely, Jim. I can state quite confidently that they either take place or they don't

is that official Graham?

if i sleep deeply and get robbed it may or may not be because i was gassed.....or should that read 'pissed'

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[abforfun]

Published on Friday 24 June 2011 09:18

SCARBOROUGH traders are being driven to despair by rogue camper van drivers abusing parking spaces to stay free of charge in the seaside town overnight.

At a recent meeting of the Scarborough Chamber of Trade and Commerce, members complained of dozens of camper vans using parking spaces overlooking the sea as an overnight sleeping spot, with one witness reporting as many as 50 parked on one street alone one evening.

The problem is most serious around Marine Drive to the north of the skateboard park and the West Pier car park, with camper vans regularly being spotted searching for spaces for the night.

Despite warnings that overnight parking of camper vans is not allowed, people are sleeping in their vehicles to avoid paying for hotels or using caravan parks.

Now traders are calling for more to be done to stop owners abusing the system and draining vital income from the seaside town’s tourist economy in the summer months.


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Hi our 1st outing in our camper was up to Scarborough there were about 7-9 campers park up overlooking the sea easter wk end. I think 50 no way the car park would b full but don nt these people spend any money inthe town i would think so would nt you.
We were charged £26 per nite and a minimun of 4 night which we think is a little steep
We don nt think its a problem as long as its not abused.
I"ve only had this problem in england.:thumb:

 

[GJH]

is that official Graham?

if i sleep deeply and get robbed it may or may not be because i was gassed.....or should that read 'pissed'

Probably

 

[GJH]

Hi our 1st outing in our camper was up to Scarborough there were about 7-9 campers park up overlooking the sea easter wk end. I think 50 no way the car park would b full but don nt these people spend any money inthe town i would think so would nt you.
We were charged £26 per nite and a minimun of 4 night which we think is a little steep
We don nt think its a problem as long as its not abused.
I"ve only had this problem in england.:thumb:

The issue is that other people think it is a problem and their threshold when they shout "abuse" is much lower. As with everything else in life, we have the right to campaign, peacefully and constructively, for changes in the law. What we do not have is the right to ignore the law just because it doesn't suit our convenience.

As far as prices and other terms of camp sites go it is like any other commercial transaction - we either accept them or go elsewhere (e.g. one of the thousands of CL/CS sites which charge less than a tenner a night).

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[artona]

, we have the right to campaign, peacefully and constructively, for changes in the law. What we do not have is the right to ignore the law just because it doesn't suit our convenience.

.

My eyes were recently opened to a third option. The jury is still out on what I think of it but it has got me interested

click here

 

[scotjimland]

My eyes were recently opened to a third option.

a student of V8 Andy perhaps ?

 

[artona]

who or what is that Jim?

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[scotjimland]

who or what is that Jim?

a fun member Andy - V8 Diesel .. who was 'into' lawful rebellion ...here is one post

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[artona]

Ah right. I have not seen that thread before. It was my son who sent me the link in the first place. Thanks for the link Jim

 

[GJH]

My eyes were recently opened to a third option. The jury is still out on what I think of it but it has got me interested

click here

I wouldn't waste your time Stew. As Jim mentioned, we went through this a long time ago as a result of Andy's posts.

Just a bunch of people who refuse to acknowledge that the supposed legal basis of their case either never existed in this country or was repealed many years ago.

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[pappajohn]

a student of V8 Andy perhaps ?

was thinking exactly that Jim

 

[artona]

I wouldn't waste your time Stew. As Jim mentioned, we went through this a long time ago as a result of Andy's posts.

Just a bunch of people who refuse to acknowledge that the supposed legal basis of their case either never existed in this country or was repealed many years ago.

I think that is the case Graham but its quite thought provoking. Its made me wonder how many "laws" are actual laws. When I say "laws" I mean those that are thrown at us because it suits someone

 

[GJH]

I think that is the case Graham but its quite thought provoking. Its made me wonder how many "laws" are actual laws. When I say "laws" I mean those that are thrown at us because it suits someone

By the nature of the process laws have to be enacted because it suits someone. That "someone" though is the parliament resulting from the votes of those who bother to take part in elections. So, not anything to suit an individual but to suit a collective which has power at the time in question.

Everyone makes mistakes but the people who draft new bills are normally very careful to make sure that it is clear where old legislation is repealed. The fact that some people refuse to accept such repeals (because it doesn't suit them) simply adds to the level of their delusion

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[Alan]

Laws

Slightly off topic but some laws are changed by being broken, many of us market traders broke the sunday trading laws by trading on the sabath through the 70s and 80s and sunday markets was the starting block for many new businesses, while still working in a humdrum job they where able to build up there stock and become self employed.
People flocked to them and sunday markets became the major shopping centres in many areas, eventually the law was changed and sunday trading became the norm.

Back on topic answering Jim on MH parking in your area there was about 10 parked at Jackson corner Skeg saturday night and 4 tonight sunday including a yank .Nobody bothers around here,holiday caravans outnumber houses here by about 50 to 1 and that and Butlins is the industry that keeps this area going
Alan

 

[wivvy's dad]

I went to Scarborough once..........................

 

[GJH]

Slightly off topic but some laws are changed by being broken, many of us market traders broke the sunday trading laws by trading on the sabath through the 70s and 80s and sunday markets was the starting block for many new businesses, while still working in a humdrum job they where able to build up there stock and become self employed.
People flocked to them and sunday markets became the major shopping centres in many areas, eventually the law was changed and sunday trading became the norm.

Nothing to do with lobbying by powerful DIY and supermarket chains then

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