Dartford crossing rip off (1 Viewer)

[stringa]

Just thought I'd share this with you. We went to Dover from lincoln having put in the address into the sat nav off we went, straight there easy peasy after a month in Spain we returned home only to find my post, there was a letter from the Dartford crossing office presenting me with my bill of £250.00 for the crossing, the poxy crossing over the Thames, my appeal was turned down as I did not pay within 12 hours, I explained I was out off the country for 30 days or so but they had the last word pay up or it will go up to £500 and then £750.........The standard charge for my 17 year old mh would be £100.00 because of the emissions, anyone else had bother like this or is it just me.

 

[Hymie]

I suppose so but I recall seeing the signs when they first appeared and wondered what that was all about, but carried on. I think I only properly read about it on here.

I am fairly sure that when the LEZ was started it only covered commercial vehicles, and only covered central London, so never gave it much thought. I was never aware that it had been extended to cover private vehicles as well as a greatly extended area and ended up on the wrong side of 750 quid in fines.

The van is berthed on a CASOA Gold site near Braintree and when our 1st MOT was due I decided to get it done near home so I could give the van a good clean and do some upgrades, brought it down on a very dark, rainy and busy evening, A120, M11, A406, A13, and did not notice any signs, but would have ignored them due to the above.

I had it MOT'd, drove to a tyre fitter the next day, leaving the zone, then back to a Sainsbury to top up the on-board gas tank, re-entering the zone. Did see some signs but, again, ignored them based on the above.

The following Saturday the 1st 250 quid fine dropped through the letterbox.

I read up on the LEZ and realised my mistake, and also realised the another 500 quid in fines was on its way, so I rang TfL, and spoke to a young lady who said "oh, that's a shame, we normally send out a warning for a 1st offence", and also stated that if the van had weighed slightly less I would not have been fined anyway, I asked why, as it would be the same engine, but she said she did not know.

Sitting at Dover docks waiting to board the ferry the next morning I wrote an email protesting the fines, we went off for a nice holiday and on the day we returned received an email from TfL stating that the fines had been rescinded due top inappropriate behaviour by their operative during the phone conversation.

A very lucky escape.

 

[Larby]

The only thing I can think of that would do it is setting the satnav to avoid tolls would probably take you via the Blackwall Tunnel which would mean you were well inside the zone.

My money is here.
A1-M11-A12-Blackwall Tunnel-A2

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[Deleted member 29692]

My money is here.
A1-M11-A12-Blackwall Tunnel-A2

Me too

 

[scotjimland]

My money is here.
A1-M11-A12-Blackwall Tunnel-A2

mine also..

the OP probably had the sat nav set to 'shortest route' and or to 'avoid tolls'

 

[Minxy]

It hasn't been extended has it? I thought the area it covered had been the same from day 1.

I've managed to find a website from 2008 with a map which shows where it will 'end' which on the east is mainly where the boundary is at the M25 itself (if you go to the website you can zoom in on the map):

Broken Link Removed

This is the map on the current LEZ website:

I can't see any obvious difference.

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[mustaphapint]

This could easily have caught me out. I don't live in London, I've not been there for years and I didn't give the LEZ a thought when I was asked to help my stepson move house. He lives just inside the M25. At the time I owned an old transit van. Fortunately just before I went to move him I'd changed the van for a newer Ducato. I later found out the Ducato was compliant whereas the older transit wasn't. I saw the LEZ signs but I assumed at the time that would only have applied to larger commercials and not me. A friend who also made the same mistake of driving in with his old van to look at a motorbike he was thinking of buying did fall foul of the rules but he was given a warning letter and told not to do it again. My MH is not compliant so I shall keeping to the M25 if we ever go that way.

 

[Steve and Kat]

The only thing I can think of that would do it is setting the satnav to avoid tolls would probably take you via the Blackwall Tunnel which would mean you were well inside the zone.

Just seen this. Indeed, i use the M25 consistently, almost everyday with my work wagons. The M25 is not an LEZ. You stay on it, you are fine. You get off it with a vehicle that is not LEZ compliant, expect to get a £100 fine.

As Nic quite rightly said above the only way you can get across the water is by going a) via the Blackwall Tunnel b) via the Rotherhithe Tunnel (and even then you are height restricted) and c) via the Woolwich Ferry. To get your fine, you MUST have driven into the LEZ zone.. I have a Dart Tag account and the account summary clearly states where the LEZ is.

For those of us (although I'm not one of them) that have an older type MH, I suggest reading to see if your vehicle is Euro 3, 4, 5, 6 and the new 7 compliant.

I have attached a checker for people to check their vehicles.... Hopefully it works for all.

Link Removed

 

[gus-lopez]

T and I'll pay when I get home but this time I did enter the LEZ but Unknown to me.....just for the nasties I always pay my way, I just never expected to get a kick in the teeth.

Can't understand why you weren't 'warned' as it was a first time in there ?

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/penalty-charges/enforcement-process

I've got an account for the Dart Charge. All the vehicles are registered on it and it's set for auto top up. Basically I don't need to think about it at all unless I change one of the cars or the MH.

The LEZ is different. You can read about it if you want here: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone

The short version that applies to motorhomes is that if you aren't Euro IV or better and you want to drive in the zone it will cost you £100 per day. No ifs, buts, discussions or discounts.

There was a map showing the zone earlier in the thread but just to point out again that even though the M25 runs through it the motorway itself is not part of the zone.

The only way he could have fallen into it is by coming off of the motorway for some reason.

Yes excellent , & how does someone who doesn't live anywhere near it ,or a foreigner find out about all
this ?
It is like me going to Scotland & suddenly finding that I am not allowed to smoke in my own lorry ? & the Spanish neighbour told me that one.

It might be easy for those who drive near it all the time, but for us that only come your way to get to France or further, it sounds unreasonable, however well signed

It isn't "well" signed if it was they would be a sign every 500m. I've used many roads in & if you miss the first sign , which is easy if close to an hgv ,or you are in right lane of two & up the side of an artic & even worse if left hand drive, once you've missed that first sign "LEZ 5 miles " the only other one I've ever seen is "LEZ 500m" , which is immediately after the exit you should have taken to avoid it.
Coming in on A13/12/127/M4 etc. for me there are very few signs. If they wanted to warn you they should be every 500m & flashing & in multiple languages.

I would like to think it is really well signed, but in the dark would it be that obvious?

As above it isn't. I don't expect to be reading chapter & verse to drive down a road. All they are required to do is provide a smooth surface to facilitate our progress. Regardless of what they do they'll never reduce emissions & I personally have no interest in it . It is all a money making exercise , nothing else.

I still don't see how anyone could miss ALL the signs. It's not like there's only one or two. If that's judgemental then I guess I have to plead guilty.

"all" what signs? Normally a max of 3 signs from a 5 mile point with last being "500m" . Which iks too late if you A) aren't in the left hand lane for the exit ,B) aren't foreign & can read English, C) know what it actually is .

People not from around the area, or from abroad have no interest in Tat like this which should be signed with flashing signs in multiple languages especially when the " money extracting fines " are so huge.
Yes the system exists in other EU states & yes I have no idea what it says in German, Italian, French, nor do I care. But the fines are in proportion to the offence.

I don't think anyone was being negative, it was just that they couldn't understand how you could get fined so much for using the Dartford Crossing.

Now it's established you had wandered into the LEZ we can understand.

The LEZ is a sod. There are signs warning that you are entering the zone but I don't recall seeing any signs warning of the consequences and I don't see why people who don't live in or around London should be expected to know anything about it.

Exactly !

My money is here.
A1-M11-A12-Blackwall Tunnel-A2

What's wrong withe the Woolwich Ferry ?


What most people who live in & around the area , or who live elsewhere & know of it, probably don't realise is that if you are driving a foreign car you actually have to register it in advance.This is because your reg isn't on the database@ dvla. Failure to do so means that you'll receive a letter informing you that they'll waive the fine as a "first offence" & they actually arrive here in Spain. This is how I found out that my car had to be registered before I went over because someone on another Spanish forum had been in the LEz without realising. Having found that out, & with the benefit of actually being English, you'd think it wouldn't be a problem to fill in an on line form & scan your reg. document & send it in ?
The site/form/info sheets must have all been written by a dyslexic foreigner. Talk about ambiguous,most foreigners wouldn't have realised from reading it that they HAD to register; nor would that have realised that great swathes of the form didn't need to be filled in. I got the woman at Transport for London ( why are they based in Brighton?) to assist me on the phone while I completed it. I doubt very mush whether someone whose first language wasn't English would have worked out it needed completing.
Same applies obviously if you have a van/motorhome as to whether it is compliant.
No idea why mine should be compliant, which it is, just because it is diesel & under same arbitrary weight ? Very peculiar why should I be exempt. Still had to register it though & get a bit of paper from Boris.

& the same now applies to the Dartford crossing . Why would a foreigner assume he had to pay using a tunnel/bridge that has no barriers ?

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[Don Quixote]

Well I'm going to be using it in March and will have dash cam running so will have a copy of the signs displayed on route.
I will of course ( because I'm planning a route ) make sure I pay in advance so I can drive across without worrying.
Interesting comment "Why would a foreigner assume he had to pay using a tunnel/bridge that has no barriers" ( it does have signs ) In any country you travel in ignorance is no excuse in a court of law, as any Spanish police officer, France police officer or court in the UK will tell you.

 

[scotjimland]

Why would a foreigner assume he had to pay using a tunnel/bridge that has no barriers ?

as said.. there are signs.. but they don't bother about paying anyway ..
Nearly 19k foreign drivers fail to pay new Dartford Crossing

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...new-Dartford-crossing-toll.html#ixzz3zlEGhk74
One in four foreign drivers haven't paid the Dartford Crossing charge
http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/ne...id_the_Dartford_Crossing_charge/?ref=mr&lp=10

 

[sdc77]

I don't think any of us like this.
It is clearly signed though.. with options to avoid it.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/about-the-lez#on-this-page-2
A simple google search on london emission zone Brings the tfl lez website up as the top result.
If I saw signs like that .. or warning of some zone or other approaching a major city like .. say Munich I think I would check them out.
Oh hang on .. there are.

It's a European requirement anyway isn't it?

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[chaser]

All this is supposition, until the op comes on to say what he actually did.
But the size of the fines really are out of this world , who the hell would want to pay £100 a day just to drive through London.

 

[scotjimland]

All this is supposition,

where would we be without it..

it's what feeds the forums.. do we really want Facts

 

[Don Quixote]

All this is supposition, until the op comes on to say what he actually did.
But the size of the fines really are out of this world , who the hell would want to pay £100 a day just to drive through London.

Why not just say "a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis" anyone would think everyone uses that word every day..........

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[Steve and Kat]

Regarding the signs for the Low Emission Zones... Jesus, they are big enough. If you come off a Motorway, or an A road that leads into London.... They have huge signs that say... YOU ARE ENTERING A LOW EMISSION ZONE.. Turn off the next junction if you do not want to enter etc etc.. A little further on the signs are there again. It's normally the size of one of the exit signs on a motorway. I simply cannot believe people can't see it.

If it said, LOW EMISSION ZONE, HERE IS YOUR FREE £50 CASH.. I bet people would definitely see it....

But joking aside, when you plan your route, please be careful when getting off the M25 near London. It could save you a whole lot of grief as can be best demonstrated by the number of comments on here..
Steve

 

[Don Quixote]

All this is supposition, until the op comes on to say what he actually did.
But the size of the fines really are out of this world , who the hell would want to pay £100 a day just to drive through London.

Considering it only costs £2.50 to cross! all be it a pain the ass to sort! as 19,000 users failed to sort last year!

 

[chaser]

Considering it only costs £2.50 to cross! all be it a pain the ass to sort! as 19,000 users failed to sort last year!

Wasn't talking about the crossing fee, more the lez fines

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[gus-lopez]

Well I'm going to be using it in March and will have dash cam running so will have a copy of the signs displayed on route.
I will of course ( because I'm planning a route ) make sure I pay in advance so I can drive across without worrying.
Interesting comment "Why would a foreigner assume he had to pay using a tunnel/bridge that has no barriers" ( it does have signs ) In any country you travel in ignorance is no excuse in a court of law, as any Spanish police officer, France police officer or court in the UK will tell you.

I could probably go through mine to see what it is there . Iwill be ensuring that I note Lez signs next year just to see how frequent they are.

as said.. there are signs.. but they don't bother about paying anyway ..
Nearly 19k foreign drivers fail to pay new Dartford Crossing

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...new-Dartford-crossing-toll.html#ixzz3zlEGhk74
One in four foreign drivers haven't paid the Dartford Crossing charge
http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/ne...id_the_Dartford_Crossing_charge/?ref=mr&lp=10

Amazing how they highlight in giant type about the 19k foreiners whilst leaving the 112,000 nationals that failed tp pay in small print.

Regarding the signs for the Low Emission Zones... Jesus, they are big enough. If you come off a Motorway, or an A road that leads into London.... They have huge signs that say... YOU ARE ENTERING A LOW EMISSION ZONE.. Turn off the next junction if you do not want to enter etc etc.. A little further on the signs are there again. It's normally the size of one of the exit signs on a motorway. I simply cannot believe people can't see it.



If it said, LOW EMISSION ZONE, HERE IS YOUR FREE £50 CASH.. I bet people would definitely see it....

But joking aside, when you plan your route, please be careful when getting off the M25 near London. It could save you a whole lot of grief as can be best demonstrated by the number of comments on here..
Steve

& what is it in French,German, Italian, Spanish ? Why would you know ? Why would you even look for something in advance that you don't know about ? I drive all over & it wouldn't even occur to me to wonder whether they have oddball schemes in advance that I should be trying to find out about. In all honesty apart from the fact that I knew about it ,it would never have occurred to me either. Just like if I went up north I wouldn't be expecting to find anything except a road to drive on. Anything else is just tax scamming. As all the embassies in London say who don't pay the congestion charge . " It is a tax".

 

[2657]

I have never been to Germany but when I do I will find out about there rules, same as I did when I started visiting France, Holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal. Not difficult in the age of the internet, even more so in your own country.

 

[Steve and Kat]

I could probably go through mine to see what it is there . Iwill be ensuring that I note Lez signs next year just to see how frequent they are.


Amazing how they highlight in giant type about the 19k foreiners whilst leaving the 112,000 nationals that failed tp pay in small print.



& what is it in French,German, Italian, Spanish ? Why would you know ? Why would you even look for something in advance that you don't know about ? I drive all over & it wouldn't even occur to me to wonder whether they have oddball schemes in advance that I should be trying to find out about. In all honesty apart from the fact that I knew about it ,it would never have occurred to me either. Just like if I went up north I wouldn't be expecting to find anything except a road to drive on. Anything else is just tax scamming. As all the embassies in London say who don't pay the congestion charge . " It is a tax".

True, and understand your reasoning, and it's very very valid. But the point i'm making and referring to was the UK folks not knowing or reading the UK signs in relation to the OP comments.

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[Deleted member 29692]

Yes excellent , & how does someone who doesn't live anywhere near it ,or a foreigner find out about all
this ?

How would you find out about specific requirements for anywhere you haven't been to before? Do some research before you set off!

Or do you just set off and hope for the best?

I suppose it's much easier to blame someone else than take responsibility for your own actions

 

[Chris]

Or do you just set off and hope for the best?

Yep

 

[Steve and Kat]

How would you find out about specific requirements for anywhere you haven't been to before? Do some research before you set off!

Or do you just set off and hope for the best?

I suppose it's much easier to blame someone else than take responsibility for your own actions

Yep

I'm sure people do..

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[Deleted member 29692]

I'm sure people do..

Evidently, as this thread shows. That's up to them.

What I don't understand is why it's always someone else's fault when they get caught out.

 

[Steve and Kat]

Evidently, as this thread shows. That's up to them.

What I don't understand is why it's always someone else's fault when they get caught out.

Easier to blame someone else than admit to your own failing...

 

[Don Quixote]

Like some many other posts that have started off the OP @stringa has not been back with his side of the story. I have said it before and will say it again there are two sides to any story and many times it's the OP that has not given all the facts in detail because they are angry when they posted the story. I do feel for the OP as I would be as angry having come home to find a demand for money.

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[Enword]

The OP started with

Just thought I'd share this with you

so I dont know where blame come's in?

 

[Don Quixote]

The OP started with so I don't know where blame come's in?

The OP shared his problem stating "letter from the Dartford crossing office", but failed to state what route his trusted "satnav" directed him on. I'm not blaming him and I don't think anyone else - what we are saying is looks like his trusted "satnav" took him within the LEZ zone and he got fined because of that and not for failing to pay for crossing the bridge. As my post states WE DO NOT have all the facts

 

[chaser]

Thing is though, he said he had been that way before and had a charge after, yet still did it again, was he avoiding dartford because of this,and got into worse trouble,
We shall probably not know now

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[The Wino]

I think its bad to be too negative on the original post after all if he has drawn attention to something that might save someone else aggro its a good thing. I think he knows with hindsight he made a mistake but I respect people who admit they made a mistake a lot more than those who think the sun shines out of theres!!!