Children on Campsites: behaviour?

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by camcondor, Sep 6, 2007.

  1. camcondor

    camcondor Read Only Funster

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    I wondered what people's views are regarding the general behaviour of children on campsites, following the tragic death of the very small child at Rowntree Park CC site in York last week........we don't have children with us anymore but certainly don't mind well-mannered youngsters having fun around sites, even making a bit of noise within reason as that's what children do, but we HAVE noticed an alarming tendency for people to leave extremely young children totally unsupervised on bikes / scooters / skateboards / just running and flailing wildly about, invading other people's space / pitches, causing a general nuisance, and of course, the ever-present safety issues.:Frown:

    Campsites for tuggers / M/Homes have lots of vehicles coming and going all the time, and access roads to my mind are not really the best place to leave unsupervised small children whizzing about on cycles / playing games etc, esp when unsupervised while parents hide behind several windbreaks knocking back booze or just talking and not being vigiliant about their kids. :Confused:

    Not sure exactly what the circumstances are re York , but the Brigade of Anti-4x4ers are already baying for blood against of those of us reckless enough to dare to drive a 4x4 as 4x4 drivers are allegedly to blame for most things.

    I wonder what it is that makes parents think that offspring can simply be "left" unattended despite potential danger, and then blame someone else when tragedy strikes.........
     
  2. Tony Santara

    Tony Santara Funster

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    I reckon you just about covered it Camconder
    its a trend among modern parents to let kids run amock not just on holiday but at home when my kids were young (grown up and married now) one look from me and they knew they were in trouble.
    kids now give there parents a load of verbal and they seem to get away with it
    its a differant world now
     
  3. Lindy-C

    Lindy-C Deleted User

    Don't get me started on this one :Mad: :Mad:

    Its almost as bad as leaving small children unattended on a busy holiday apartment complex only to allow one to be abducted :Mad: :Mad:

    A VERY sore subject in my book :Mad:
     
  4. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    Exactly ..

    Then why are you having a go at kids and parents .. I find your post provocative and just another excuse for a rant..
     
  5. Lindy-C

    Lindy-C Deleted User

    I don't think its Laurie's intention to have a rant as such Jim, its a subject that will touch a nerve with any responsible parent.

    To quote from the news report....
    Ken and Jacqueline Robson, from Newcastle, were onsite when the incident occurred. "We were onsite having our dinner and a woman came running up asking people if they had a little boy on a bike," Mrs Robson said.

    "They were obviously trying to locate the parents. It wasn't until later on when we went to wash the dishes near the entrance to the site that we saw the ambulance and police."


    This implies to me that the child's parents were not close by at the time so couldn't have been supervising him. I am sure they will carry that guilt with them always.................its so sad and could have been avoided :Frown:
     
  6. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    Of course it touches a nerve, and I consider myself a responsible parent but to go on about parents boozing behind windbreaks while their kids are running amok is quite frankly ranting.

    Camp sites should be safe for kids to play without constant supervision, I'm not suggesting that they should do as they please but they should at least be safe to play without fear of being struck by a vehicle.. .. many sites now have strict controls on cars/vans, some even make tuggers park their cars outside the main camping area, often I have watched in amazement as someone uses their car to go to the shower block or site office..

    Cars and kids need to be kept apart, this is a failure of the site staff to enforce rules and of the site owners to ensure a safe environment for the kids, not an excuse for a rant about careless or uncaring parents..
     
  7. Munchie

    Munchie Funster Life Member

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    I'm afraid saying that "this is a failure of the site staff to enforce rules and of the site owners to ensure a safe environment for the kids" may not be the case. I'm afraid I have seen young children riding bikes on footpaths on campsites and not stopping to look when they come to the end of the path and riding straight out onto the road without slowing or looking. I have to ask you if they ran into an elderly person and injured them or worse would that be the sites fault? I don't see how the wardens can watch children all the time, surely this is the parents responsibility.

    I don't know where the fault lies in this tragic case, it may well be the car drivers fault although the report states the the car was moving slowly.

    This is a camp site and the use of cars or motorhomes is required even if just to park or leave the the site and roads are clear to see and both parents and children should be aware of this.
     
  8. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    G'morning Ken

    The law is quite clear on who is responsible for ensuring the safety of pedestrians

    Health and Safety act
    Ensure that your workplace is organised in such a way that pedestrians and vehicles can circulate in a safe manner. (Sections 2 (1) and 3 (1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, Regulation 5 (1) of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, Regulation 17 of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992)

    Extract
    You should provide a system in the workplace which, so far as is reasonably
    practicable, restricts the movement of vehicles to areas which are demarcated from areas where pedestrians have access. So far as is reasonably practicable, vehicles should beprohibited from entering the pedestrian accessed areas, and pedestrians should be prevented from entering the vehicle movement areas. Vehicle movement areas should preferably be demarcated from pedestrian accessed areas by physical barriers such as railings.


    This is the Law, it does not negate parents responsibilities but the onus is on the site owners to provide a safe environment and employees to enforce any regulations which may or in this case may not be in place.
    It's not good enough to say they shouldn't be allowed to cycle, if there is a danger then cycling should be banned and the rule enforced. If a traffic system has a high risk then measures must be taken so far is reasonably practical to reduce the risk to low or negligible.

    Vehicle movements should be strictly controlled where there is a risk of an accident.
     
  9. TinaGlenn

    TinaGlenn Read Only Funster

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    While I can agree with your comments Jim, I can also agree with some of what Laurie has said too. It does also seem to me that some very small children do seem to be allowed to do and go where ever they want when at campsites.

    We had a very unnerving time at a large campsite in Cornwall recently where a young boy of about 4 or 5 just walked into our van and started to talk to us, asked if we had any biscuits or juice and generally made himself at home. We asked him to go outside but he just sat inside looking around, we didnt have a clue who he was, or where his parents were. I finally gave him a biscuit and told him to sit outside to eat it in case of crumbs and once he was out shut the door. It was about 15 mins later when the parents walked past looking for him. Their comments?? "Oh he likes motorhomes and likes to look in them"???? I am sure we could have taken that child for a ride anywhere in the van and I doubt anyone would have been any the wiser for a long time. It turned out that they were camping right over the other side of the site from us, and thought that it was quite safe to let him wander where he wanted to.

    Compare that to the caravan parked next to us at the same time, with 2 very lively and inquisitive little girls of about 3 & 5 who played on their bikes, with their football and dolls, never out of sight of mum and dad, and who when their ball went under our van got mum to come with them to ask if they could get it back. Yes they were curious about the van too, and am sure many of the football games where the ball rolled by were to get a chance to peek in, we invited the parents in for a drink so that the girls could see inside our van and they spent a very happy half an hour up in the overcab bed playing house while we chatted with mum and dad.

    Our kids are older now 16 & 21, but we have taken them camping from a young age, they always found friends on sites and had lots of fun, but we always knew where they were and kept an eye on them even as they got older.

    I did watch in horror recently as a child on a bike at the Clumber Park site in Nottingham only just stopped short of zooming across the road and crashing into the side of a caravan being towed along slowly and within the speed limit, he could have gone under the caravan and I doubt the driver would even have known at the time.

    Tina
     
  10. Munchie

    Munchie Funster Life Member

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  11. TinaGlenn

    TinaGlenn Read Only Funster

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    That is all well and good, but children also need to be told and taught not to play on roads, to stay away from moving cars, and they need to be told not to duck under safety barriers (which they often do).

    You can put all the rules and regulations you want in place and try to enforce them vocally (loudspeakers, notices, warning signs) and physically (barriers & fences & tarmac/ gravel roadways), but if people do not take some responsibility for their own actions you are fighting a losing battle.

    Maybe I am a bad parent by some of the softly softly approach ideas, but many years ago I impressed onto my kids that if they played in the road or ran out in front of a car they would get squashed and be dead and have to be scraped off the road with a shovel and that would make mummy and daddy very sad and would hurt them a lot too. They got the message, never had nightmares about it and still love us!

    Tina
     
  12. melplash

    melplash Deleted User

    I am sure Jim looks after his children. As more and more people go camping it does surprise me that on lots of campsites there are not actual designated walkways, seperate from roadways.

    In the example of supermarkets they do often have walkways and so can therefore rightfully claim they have met their responsibilities should such a terrible accident occur.

    I do think though that some people jump and automatically tut tut when they see children freely playing. Usually there is a parent somewhere keeping a careful watch.

    This is such a sad incident and is probably a no blame incident but somewhere, there are parents and a car driver who for the rest of their lives will suffer from it, and of course a little child with a life no more.
     
  13. johnsandywhite

    johnsandywhite Read Only Funster

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    :Frown: Looks like my first thoughts about the McCanns may be correct? :Mad:


    But I hope I am wrong?
     
  14. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    I agree, I also agree that parents do have a responsibility, I said so in my previous post.
    I think we all agree that this tragic accident was preventable but only a police enquiry can determine who was responsible..

    In memory of this child, a song by Cat Stevens

    Where do the children play.

    Well I think its fine, building jumbo planes.
    Or taking a ride on a cosmic train.
    Switch on summer from a slot machine.
    Yes, get what you want to if you want, cause you can get anything.

    I know weve come a long way,
    Were changing day to day,
    But tell me, where do the children play?

    Well you roll on roads over fresh green grass.
    For your lorry loads pumping petrol gas.
    And you make them long, and you make them tough.
    But they just go on and on, and it seems that you cant get off.

    Oh, I know weve come a long way,
    Were changing day to day,
    But tell me, where do the children play?

    Well youve cracked the sky, scrapers fill the air.
    But will you keep on building higher
    til theres no more room up there?
    Will you make us laugh, will you make us cry?
    Will you tell us when to live, will you tell us when to die?

    I know weve come a long way,
    Were changing day to day,
    But tell me, where do the children play?
     
  15. camcondor

    camcondor Read Only Funster

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    "Having a go at kids and parents"????? I don't think so, and I certainly do not expect personal attacks from you just because I dared to raise a topical issue which has ended in tragedy!!! There's enough of the personal attack behaviour on other forums and this one certainly does NOT need it. However, debating issues which are relevant is perfectly appropriate, and there is no need to attack someone else's opinion just because you don't like it or them!!

    "Just another excuse for a rant" ???? Seems you are doing the ranting here! Sadly, a very small child has died, tragically, on a CC site in circumstances which indicate that he was totally unsupervised at the time of the tragedy. Some adults appear to treat campsites as play sites for their offspring and I have seen many adults ignore offspring running amok and causing a nuisance, while they hide behind the ubiquitous "windbreaks" or busy themselves with other matters other than the supervision of their children. This tragedy displays that there are dangers to children as well as the (ignored) nuisance they may cause to others.

    Children under 10 have, in law, no capacity and as such require 24/7 supervision by a responsible adult. Older children can of course be given more independence but the parent obviously still has a responsibility in granting such freedom from direct supervision.

    Keep the insults for another time, Jim, they are inappropriate and unneccessary and definitely belong in a different forum. This is a topical and salient issue and everyone deserves the right to have their say about it - not be attacked by you just because you have a personal problem an individual poster. People who would otherwise have contributed meaningfully have likely been scared off by your attack on me now.

    Oh, and as for the folk who use cars to go to the shower block or office - many people have mobility problems and disabilities and need to be able to use their cars to do this - why shouldn't they??

    Laurie
     
  16. kands

    kands Read Only Funster

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    Sorry Jim, I have to disagree mate, I am not sure that accidents such as this are necessarily preventable. It would be nice to think so but in reality I do believe that sometimes accidents happen and whilst it may be interesting to debate who is responsible for this tragedy, it serves little purpose. There will be a police investigation and then the truth will come out. I think it a bit unfair of you to poke at Laurie for her comments personally, I believe that what she said was largely true, even if not in the context of this appalling tragedy and also noticed that she pointed out that the anti 4x4 brigade had already started, presumably trying to heap blame upon the driver, just because has was(?) driving a 4x4? Laurie has obviously posted her perception of a possible scenario, pointing out (without pointing a finger) the overall responsibilities of parents, however if I read your post correctly you seem to be indicating that the responsibility for everyone safety belongs firmly with the owners of the campsite.
    I saw a sign on a mirror in a toilet at one of our customers, that said, quite plainly "The person responsible for your safety is looking at you" I thought that was an awesome statement :BigGrin:
    Laurie did not actually blame anyone in her post (unlike the anti 4x4 brigade) I think she was making a general observation about life on a campsite these days, and it is an observation that I for one have also made, as I am sure have many others.
    I cannot follow the logic of separating pedestrians from vehicular traffic on a camp site, it is impossible without introducing a police state, and erecting barriers is just beyond the realms of reality, in my opinion, because they will restrict access to the pitches by campers, will do nothing to Shepherd the pedestrians as they will climb over or under any barrier to get where they are going, and could in extreme circumstances be used as missiles or weapons by unsavory people.
    I really think that we should all wait for the inquiry to be published and then we can make our judgments, but please let us not be too judgmental about peoples honest thoughts and posts :BigGrin: We are, after all MotorhomeFun :BigGrin:
    Thanks

    Keith
     
  17. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    Hi Keith

    Then we agree to disagree, I have nothing more to say on the matter, I've seen these types of threads deteriorate into a full scale battle with little achieved, friends falling out and people leaving the forum, we don't want that.

    Regards

    Jim
     
  18. johnsandywhite

    johnsandywhite Read Only Funster

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    :Eek!: We certainly do NOT want that. Calm down peeps. Have Fun and enjoy. :Wink:
     
  19. kands

    kands Read Only Funster

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    Hi Jim
    Not falling out with anyone mate :BigGrin::BigGrin::BigGrin: And certainly no intention of leaving, but it is a bit difficult not to say what one feels with these emotive type of subjects sometimes isn't it?

    Keith
     
  20. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    Yes indeed, I've never been one for not saying as I think,
    nor have you.. :Laughing:

    Jim
     
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