Change to overnight parking rules in Highlands (1 Viewer)

Mags52

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I don't know if anyone else saw Link Removed but it seems that Transport Scotland is going to remove all the No Overnight Parking signs in the Highlands as they are not legal. The law says that if you are tired when driving you should pull over and take a nap. Happy napping funsters! Yippee!::bigsmile:
 

aba

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i wonder how many in the rest of england and wales are also illegal.
 

Wildman

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depends on local bylaws really. anyway good news on parking in the highlands, but what aboot the rest of Scotland. Loch Lomond in particular, I seem to remember camping bans being put in place, do the now differenciate between camping and overnight parking. they should.

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GJH

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Transport Scotland have obviously acted properly now that the ultra vires prohibition has been pointed out. Hopefully those who use the laybys in future will also act properly and not create litter or use them as "unofficial, open-air toilets".

As regards the rest of the UK, it is easy enough to establish whether any particular order is valid. Just contact the council concerned and ask them for details of the TRO which applies under FoI they must inform you. A TRO might ban overnight parking and/or overnight habitation.

Is it really true, though, that "the law says that if you are tired when driving you should pull over and take a nap"? I thought there was simply a prohibition of careless/dangerous driving, one cause of which might be that the driver is tired. It is incumbent on all of us, surely, to plan our journeys such that they include stopping points as necessary - which does not mean that we have a right to use a layby for habitation just because we are tired :Smile:
 

scotjimland

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The 'illegal' signs were erected to prevent lay-bys being used by 'travelers', caravans and motorhomes as camping grounds, thereby depriving others .. now it's been highlighted and brought to the attention of the authorities, how long before they apply for TRO's. ?
Andy's action may be laudable but sometimes it's better to let sleeping dogs lie..

Having a nap is one thing, but camping in a lay-by ? Why not book into a site. Not only a much safer place to spend the night but also help support the local economy.

Just to clarify, I'm not against legal wild camping in a proper setting.. but lay-by camping isn't wild camping, it's parking. Many a time I've stopped for a break in one and been disgusted at the mess and human filth left on the roadside, why anyone would want to sleep in one is beyond me.
 

Wildman

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That is where I beg to differ Graham, it is exactly what laybys are there for, taking a rest break with no difference between night or day. It is the truckers who leave rubbish and toilet waste not motorhomers who have on board facilities. We all have a choice, I never plan a journey and cannot tell you in the morning where I may or may not be in the evening. The freedom afforded by a self contained unit is freedom from sites and regimentation. I appreciate there are those who like a drink and/or the feeling of security that a site gives them which is great for them. For the rest of us however the inference that we should all be on sites is not what I want to hear no matter how well meaning it is. It is obvious to me that as a long time public servant you are conditioned to think the way you do and I don't hold that against you, you are still a very nice man, hee hee and I mean no offense. Without the freedom to pull up where/ when I please (as long as there is no obstruction or nuisance caused) I would give up and get another boat instead. We are all entitled to our opinions/choices and thank goodness we are.

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Spacerunner

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Transport Scotland have obviously acted properly now that the ultra vires prohibition has been pointed out. Hopefully those who use the laybys in future will also act properly and not create litter or use them as "unofficial, open-air toilets".

As regards the rest of the UK, it is easy enough to establish whether any particular order is valid. Just contact the council concerned and ask them for details of the TRO which applies under FoI they must inform you. A TRO might ban overnight parking and/or overnight habitation.

Is it really true, though, that "the law says that if you are tired when driving you should pull over and take a nap"? I thought there was simply a prohibition of careless/dangerous driving, one cause of which might be that the driver is tired. It is incumbent on all of us, surely, to plan our journeys such that they include stopping points as necessary - which does not mean that we have a right to use a layby for habitation just because we are tired :Smile:

Apart from not having a clue to what the highlighted terms mean its totally impracticable to attempt to phone local authorities if you just want to pull over for a night.
IMO such advice is pointless. :Smile:
 

Jaws

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Well SR, having been in the position of needing clarification about parking in a certain place, I can assure you than a phone call of less than five minutes to a local authority to check if any TRO's were in place, is actually well worth while and not bad advice at all :thumb:

Just to help you..

TRO = Traffic Regulation Order

FoI = Freedom of Information Act 2000

Ultra vires = Latin phrase literally "beyond the powers" So in this case the local councils exceded their power



As an aside, I not so close friend suffers a mild form of narcolepsy.. As I say it is mild and he has plenty or warning before anything happens..
As soon as he feels an attach coming on he HAS to stop and sleep.. I have not seen the chap for several years now but I know he used to carry a doctors letter in case of a meeting with a stroppy traffic warden or similar

Soooooo.. all we need do is get a friendly GP to give us all such letters and we can plot up pretty much anywhere !!!! :thumb: :ROFLMAO:
 

Spacerunner

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So where do I get the phone number from and which local authority employee is going to answer the phone at seven in the evening. And how many of this local authority's departments are going to be open at seven in the evening so they can shunt me round trying to find an answer. And will they be able to give me an answer? :Smile:

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Jaws

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Local police station.. They gave me the 24 hour contact details .. It was THEY who suggested the call as I had popped in the station to ask them...

Because accidents do not stop happening at 5pm and clear up squads have to be on hand and dispatched as and when, local authorities are obliged to maintain a 24 hour 7 day a week operations line
 

GJH

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That is where I beg to differ Graham, it is exactly what laybys are there for, taking a rest break with no difference between night or day. It is the truckers who leave rubbish and toilet waste not motorhomers who have on board facilities. We all have a choice, I never plan a journey and cannot tell you in the morning where I may or may not be in the evening. The freedom afforded by a self contained unit is freedom from sites and regimentation. I appreciate there are those who like a drink and/or the feeling of security that a site gives them which is great for them. For the rest of us however the inference that we should all be on sites is not what I want to hear no matter how well meaning it is. It is obvious to me that as a long time public servant you are conditioned to think the way you do and I don't hold that against you, you are still a very nice man, hee hee and I mean no offense. Without the freedom to pull up where/ when I please (as long as there is no obstruction or nuisance caused) I would give up and get another boat instead. We are all entitled to our opinions/choices and thank goodness we are.
Yes, Roger, laybys are there for taking a rest break, but they are not there for habitation if there is a valid TRO in place restricting it. I appreciate fully that you mean no offence but it isn't conditioning, it's ability to research, read and understand legislation :Smile: If anyone cares to have a look at http://www.motorhomeparking.co.uk/roads.htm they will find that I did make the effort to research this point.

Motorhomes do give us freedom from sites and regimentation but they do not give us the freedom to pull up where/when we please. We have to abide by the same restrictions as everyone else and that includes abiding by any TROs which restrict habitation, whether it goes against our opinions or not :Smile:
 

GJH

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Apart from not having a clue to what the highlighted terms mean its totally impracticable to attempt to phone local authorities if you just want to pull over for a night.
IMO such advice is pointless. :Smile:

So where do I get the phone number from and which local authority employee is going to answer the phone at seven in the evening. And how many of this local authority's departments are going to be open at seven in the evening so they can shunt me round trying to find an answer. And will they be able to give me an answer? :Smile:

First of all, thanks to Jaws for the translation of the abbreviations & Latin.

I am not suggesting that anyone should attempt to phone a LA at seven in the evening. I was responding to Andy's point "i wonder how many in the rest of england and wales are also illegal.". I apologise for any lack of clarity.

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Spacerunner

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Local police station.. They gave me the 24 hour contact details .. It was THEY who suggested the call as I had popped in the station to ask them...

Because accidents do not stop happening at 5pm and clear up squads have to be on hand and dispatched as and when, local authorities are obliged to maintain a 24 hour 7 day a week operations line

I'm still not convinced.

Didn't see that many police stations in rural Wales or England and I would not be interested in a 30 mile round trip to the nearest town just to know if i pull over in a layby next to a HGV thats already been there for several hours.

If I have to make sure its legal why don't HGV's have to do the same.
And.......just what are laybys for then, if not to pull into for a kip?
 

GJH

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There is different legislation covering HGVs because of the restrictions on driving hours. Pulling in for a kip - as one might in a car - is different from overnight habitation which some TROs restrict.
 

sedge

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It is the truckers who leave rubbish and toilet waste not motorhomers who have on board facilities.


I shall be writing to the Transport Minister.

They really have to make a law to prevent truckers taking so many babies in nappies in their trucks, since it must be them who are throwing soiled nappies about the place.

Not satisified with already having at least one such in their cab, they are also fornicating in the same laybys, mind you that may not result in further births, judging by the amount of used condoms ....

Plus McD's should not be selling Happy Meals to Truckers. We know they are because of the boxes strewn about. It's really not good for their image .....

Yours,

Disgusted
Bedworth

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Jun 10, 2011
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What about the 2 hour rule at motorway service stations.

I remember several occasions when I was younger having to stop off and have a few hours sleep in the middle of a long drive back from Europe.

These days it seems if you nod off for more than two hours you're in for a whopping surprise in the mail a few days later, i.e. a big fine.

Surely it SHOULD be legal to be able to have a snooze for more than two hours - if you need it - without having to pay money. Aren't we already paying our road tax for these kind of facilities :Smile:
 

GJH

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What about the 2 hour rule at motorway service stations.

I remember several occasions when I was younger having to stop off and have a few hours sleep in the middle of a long drive back from Europe.

These days it seems if you nod off for more than two hours you're in for a whopping surprise in the mail a few days later, i.e. a big fine.

Surely it SHOULD be legal to be able to have a snooze for more than two hours - if you need it - without having to pay money. Aren't we already paying our road tax for these kind of facilities :Smile:
No, we're not paying our road tax for these kind of facilities.

Notwithstanding that we all (except those drivers whose hours are regulated by law) have control over our own destiny and every opportunity and ability to ensure that we plan our trips such that we build in rest stops as required.

Why should any organisation provide free facilities for anyone who refuses to make such provision?
 
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No, we're not paying our road tax for these kind of facilities.

Notwithstanding that we all (except those drivers whose hours are regulated by law) have control over our own destiny and every opportunity and ability to ensure that we plan our trips such that we build in rest stops as required.

Why should any organisation provide free facilities for anyone who refuses to make such provision?

The majority of vehicles do not now pay road tax !!! they pay an emission charge!!!BUSBY::bigsmile:

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vwalan

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motor way service stations are leased off the govt . they dont have tro in their carparks .its a private carpark and if you dont pay they may take you to court . they may not as well. i believe if you went to court with a good story about safety and how you fell asleep and didnt wake up in time you would probably get off .
usually they threaten but dont proceed with taking you to court .
 

johnp10

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What about the 2 hour rule at motorway service stations.

I remember several occasions when I was younger having to stop off and have a few hours sleep in the middle of a long drive back from Europe.

These days it seems if you nod off for more than two hours you're in for a whopping surprise in the mail a few days later, i.e. a big fine.

Surely it [HI]SHOULD[/HI] be legal to be able to have a snooze for more than two hours - if you need it - without having to pay money. Aren't we already paying our road tax for these kind of facilities :Smile:

It [HI]IS[/HI] legal to stop off for more than two hours.
Motorway Services are leased, so are in effect private property.
So no, we don't pay road or any other tax for these facilities.
Two hours is usually allowed for free, then you pay.
You agree to that by parking there. (See Ts & Cs)
It's a business, not a charity.
It's the driver's responsibility, not the Services' operators' to plan a journey so that proper, effective breaks (including overnights) can be taken.
Also, they don't send a fine, it's a bona fide invoice.


The majority of vehicles do not now pay road tax !!! they pay an emission charge!!!BUSBY::bigsmile:

Where did that pearl of wisdom come from?
Of course the majority pay VED, some get a lower rate related to emissions.

motor way service stations are leased off the govt . they dont have tro in their carparks .its a private carpark and if you dont pay they may take you to court . they may not as well. i believe if you went to court with a good story about safety and how you fell asleep and didnt wake up in time you would probably get off .
usually they threaten but dont proceed with taking you to court .

Take you to court?
They do, usually with successful outcome, they don't just threaten.

Fell asleep but didn't wake up in time as a defence in court?
Is that on Planet Earth or Fuller's Earth?
How can a defence based essentially on "I was too tired to drive when I drove there" get you off?
You use the facility, you are agreeing to the charges.
You don't pay the charge, they invoice you.
Don't pay the invoice, they can enforce it as an unpaid debt through the civil courts.
A positive outcome for them can affect your credit rating etc.
It's a debt, Alan. Nothing there to "get off with" in court.
 
Jun 10, 2011
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I figure these place SHOULD be covered under our road tax.

Who paid for the land to build these service stations in the first place? I would have thought it was us - the tax payer - and the road tax payer in particular.

It seems we - the public - stump up the cash to buy and build these things, then the Govt sell the facility off on the cheap to their cronies (who pay profits into off-shore tax havens) who then make huge profits leasing the space to people like Starbucks who don't pay any tax.

Hmmmm. I think I'm turning into a radical lefty :ROFLMAO:

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GJH

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I figure these place SHOULD be covered under our road tax.

[HI]Who paid for the land to build these service stations in the first place? I would have thought it was us - the tax payer - and the road tax payer in particular.[/HI]

It seems we - the public - stump up the cash to buy and build these things, then the Govt sell the facility off on the cheap to their cronies (who pay profits into off-shore tax havens) who then make huge profits leasing the space to people like Starbucks who don't pay any tax.

Hmmmm. I think I'm turning into a radical lefty :ROFLMAO:

Sorry but you're wrong. From
Why is the food so expensive?

This is related to the previous question. [HI]The operators have to pay all the running costs associated with the service area, including the construction and maintenance of the slip roads onto/off the motorway.[/HI] And they have to keep the area open all the time, even when there aren't many customers, as well as provide free facilities such as toilets and short-term parking. So they need to make enough money to cover all of these costs, despite the fact that not everyone who uses the facilities will be spending any money. Which means that they need to make their income on product sales, such as food, snacks and stuff from the shop. Effectively, the people who use the paid-for products, such as food, are subsidising those who only ever use the free facilities such as toilets.

Other countries do things differently. Elsewhere, it's more usual for the government (or the local equivalent of the Highways Agency) to provide the basic site, including free facilities such as toilets and parking, and then sublet individual facilities on the site to fuel, retail and food vendors. That way, the paid-for facilities only have to cover their own costs, not those of the site as a whole. That makes them a lot cheaper to use. It also means that there can be more service areas available, including more basic ones that consist solely of a rest area (picnic area) rather than full-facility sites, as a site can exist without needing to generate large amounts of income. If you think this makes more sense, then write to your MP and tell them!
 

nodge

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Goodness me JohnP10!!!

I notice you work in the road traffic industry, which may explain your skewed standpoint on service station parking.

To suggest that most car park operators that work on behalf of motorway service stations take you to court, is incorrect, they don't. I grant you, they will all threaten to, but most won't.

T&C's of any motorway parking are an agreement between the car park operator and the driver of the vehicle (not the registered keeper of the vehicle). If a ticket is issued for overstay, either on site or through the post sometime later, it will be sent to the registered keepers address, which the parking company paid the DVLA a nominal fee for (I think £2.50).

At this point, the recipient has two choices if he/she feels the charge is unfair. firstly, simply reply saying you were not the driver of the vehicle, as only councils and the police can demand you to name the driver, this is then the end, or simply ignore it. These feisty little car park bullies will continue to send 2 or 3 more letters threatening everything including heavy fines, court cases a criminal record and in one case prison, but they are just that empty threats that are baseless and unenforceable.

I'm not saying any of the above to encourage people to abuse the facility the service stations provide, but if people stop paying these bogus fines issued by unscrupulous individuals, then they will go back to tarmacking driveways or wherever it is they came from.
 

GJH

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Goodness me JohnP10!!!

I notice you work in the road traffic industry, which may explain your skewed standpoint on service station parking.

To suggest that most car park operators that work on behalf of motorway service stations take you to court, is incorrect, they don't. I grant you, they will all threaten to, but most won't.

T&C's of any motorway parking are an agreement between the car park operator and the driver of the vehicle (not the registered keeper of the vehicle). If a ticket is issued for overstay, either on site or through the post sometime later, it will be sent to the registered keepers address, which the parking company paid the DVLA a nominal fee for (I think £2.50).

[HI]At this point, the recipient has two choices if he/she feels the charge is unfair. firstly, simply reply saying you were not the driver of the vehicle, as only councils and the police can demand you to name the driver, this is then the end, or simply ignore it.[/HI] These feisty little car park bullies will continue to send 2 or 3 more letters threatening everything including heavy fines, court cases a criminal record and in one case prison, but they are just that empty threats that are baseless and unenforceable.

I'm not saying any of the above to encourage people to abuse the facility the service stations provide, but if people stop paying these bogus fines issued by unscrupulous individuals, then they will go back to tarmacking driveways or wherever it is they came from.

Didn't that change last October? According to the AA:
If you were not the driver at the time but the driver does not pay, for example, if the parking enforcement company rejects a challenge, or you do not name the driver, then you as the keeper becomes liable for the parking charge notice.
Also, what is unscrupulous about somebody pursuing payment of a contracted charge?

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Jaws

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Blimey Yorkieman !!!

Now that REALLY is a considered reply !

Considered for 14 months in fact ::bigsmile:
 

John & Joan

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On the point of the original post.

The saga still goes on Link Removed

Andy Strangways (islandman) has 12 months after the original signs were to be taken down has received confirmation that the highways staff or Police in Highland Council area will not move a motorhomes or others just because there is still a no overnight parking sign in the layby.


From Highland Council to Andy:

I can confirm that staff have been instructed not to attempt to move on any motorists parked in laybys.
No records were kept of the locations where signs were erected in the first place so it is not possible to provide a schedule of the ones still to be removed. The majority of signs have already been removed although a small number remain at various locations including Durness. The remaining signs will be removed when operatives are working in the vicinity but it is not intended to send staff into remote areas just to remove signs when there are no other tasks in the same area. To do so would not be an efficient use of time, considering that there are no records to indicate where staff should be sent. Instead, they have a general instruction to remove any signs they encounter during other work.
A response to your freedom of information request is attached.

Yours sincerely

 


 
Richard Guest
Head of Roads & Community Works

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johnp10

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Quote from Nodge:
Goodness me JohnP10!!!

I notice you work in the road traffic industry, which may explain your skewed standpoint on service station parking.

To suggest that most car park operators that work on behalf of motorway service stations take you to court, is incorrect, they don't. I grant you, they will all threaten to, but most won't.
End Quote

The fact that I work in the Road Transport Industry (not the traffic industry, whatever that is), doesn't give me a skewed standpoint on parking charges. Quite the opposite, it's a realistic one from the real world.

I see you are in the legal profession, in which case check out charges made to hauliers for unpaid parking fees.
They do pursue and the charges do stand up, including added admin charges.
We aren't talking here about some Herbert in Morrison's car park, but parking in an area where the charges are clearly displayed and the driver of the vehicle has agreed to them simply by parking there.
As a legal eagle, would you not agree a contract has been agreed, albeit a tacit one?
Once again....it's an unpaid invoice like any other.

As to who can be pursued, see Graham's last posting.
Things have changed.

This thread is about to turn into yet another "car park owners are a bunch of gits" blurb.

Let's get back on track...
It's about where we can LEGALLY park overnight.
Tiredness through a badly planned journey or the driver seeing private property (Motorway Services etc.) as being there for his own convenience does not give anyone the right to park in a Service area, supermarket car park or my front garden free of charge.
They all have the same status.......private property.

How about...get off the motorway and find a safe parking area?
 
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nodge

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Also, what is unscrupulous about somebody pursuing payment of a contracted charge?

Absolutely nothing, unless its done with unenforceable threats and intimidation.


As for changes in law since October, I will defer as that's a news to me.
 

GJH

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Also, what is unscrupulous about somebody pursuing payment of a contracted charge?
Absolutely nothing, unless its done with unenforceable threats and intimidation.
Not unenforceable, not threats and not intimidation (except to those with a guilty conscience perhaps :Smile:)

As for changes in law since October, I will defer as that's a news to me.
Ah, as a legal professional I thought you would probably be aware - Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
Full AA article HERE.

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