bumber bolts

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by pappajohn, Dec 1, 2007.

  1. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    hi,
    today i had a reccy to see how 'easy' it will be to fit the "A" frame bar to the front of my (mums til after xmas) corsa.
    after around an hour i finally found the last two elusive bumper fixing bolts behind plastic bungs in the wheel arch and hey presto!
    one front cross member in perfect alignment to lower grill slots just asking for a couple of 300mm x 100mm x 6mm steel plates fixed with 3 nuts and bolts at each bracket. i,ll need to move the exterior temp sensor but thats no job.
    it will take less time to fit than the bumper took to remove.
    just got to sort out the brake cable alignment the all ready to fit it then start on the motorhome towbar.
    a lot of cutting steel plates but i can do it for around £60 including getting it professionally welded(my welding aint THAT good) as opposed to £350 to buy one.
    as they dont come under eurolaws/type approval yet for motorhomes i cant see any reason for not making my own.

    john.
     
  2. Geoff

    Geoff Read Only Funster

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    These are purely my thoughts on an issue I have not seen previously discussed, they are not designed open up old wounds, please read or not as you see fit, agree or disagree, consider or dismiss. I hope I haven't offended any one, and no one feels that any of these comments are aimed at any individuals because thay are not.

    Hi John.
    I believe you have touched on a little discussed aspect of the use of "A" frames, that of the legality of the towed car when it is detached from the "A" frame. My understanding is, that as you rightly say motorhomes and "A" frames avoid many of the regulations, the towed car does not. If it was registered after 1/8/98 it is subject to "European whole vehicle type approvel" this covers not only the car itself but anything that is attached to it, its most common application is in the fitting of towbars, but my understanding is that it would also encompass any permanent brackets used to attach an "A" frame. Due to the nature of the regulation in that not only the brackets but the fixing points would need approval for this purpose only the manufacturer would be able to gain type approval, as far as I know none have. I also fail to see how they could meet crash test standards, 1) adding the brackets/crossmember would increase the "hardness" of a "soft" area of the car, and 2) because the bumper mounts are by design a weakened area, the attachment of towing points here is likely to cause distortion to the chassis.
    My greatest worry would be not one of law but one of liability. Should a car so equipped be involved in an accident involving serious injury, even if the driver was totaly blameless, a half decent claims lawyer would argue that the injuries received were greater as a result of these fittings, a point that, given that this would be in a civil court, would not need to be "proved" but only to show "balance of probability", if the lawyer was any good at all, something I don't believe should be too difficult. this point accepted I don't think it would take much to convince the judge that with out these attachments the injuries sustained would not have been permanent and therefore the whole claim should be against the car driver. At some point while this is going on, I suspect that a letter would arrive politly stating that due to unauthorized chassis modifications your insurance is null and void.
    I don't feel this is an unreasonable senario but a very frightening one that could leave you having to pay a claim of hundreds of thousands out of your own pocket and costing everything you own, just one of the reasons I wouldn't "A" frame.

    Regards Geoff.​
     
  3. moandick

    moandick Read Only Funster

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    A Frame Fitment Legalities

    A well argued and seriously thought out point, one which I would not have thought of beforehand - but now makes me even more grateful that my wife (and Bank Manager) made me think twice before having an A frame fitted a few weeks ago.

    We are extremely fed up with seeing a £2000 trailer sitting on it's bum going rotten whilst not in use - but rather that than be faced with this (so far untested) debate on what happens in the event of an A Frame 'accident' - whether the car is fitted to the A Frame at the time of impact - or not.

    Better that £2000 goes to waste over a period of time than lose everything, in the worst case scenario, suggested by Geoff.

    Dick
     
  4. Road Runner

    Road Runner Read Only Funster

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    There are sites (mainly caravan ones who delight in diggeing at MHer where the receptor has been well discussed and is another area when things get heated.

    To be honest most motorhomes are not ncap tested so a very grey area all around:Wink:
     
  5. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    I have to agree with the sentiment above
    However as the scenario is not tested I think we should explore this area as a hypothetical problem, and as such I would throw in the following, and ask Geoff's and others opinions on the following.
    Given that what Papa is proposing to do, falls into this possible problem area, I belive the buck would indeed stop firmly with Papa,
    What if,
    the conversion was done by a so called professional installer,
    Would it be reasonable for the customer to expect and demand nothing less than a professional install, and to that end by fitting such a devise it could be expected that all relevant safety issues have been resolved by the designer and installer, and therefor the Buck stops elsewhere
    Being in the motor trade we repair and install amongst other things tow bars and other varied items, I have in place what is called liability insurance and part of that is what is known as faulty workmanship cover, and that covers me for exactly that, if I get it wrong there wouldbe be a payout, this is not intended as an anti DIY lecture, Just another way of looking at it,whats your thoughts
    Geo
     
  6. Geoff

    Geoff Read Only Funster

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    I had hoped to avoid this sort of response with my notes in my original post, however as these accusations have been leveled I will try answer them as politly as possible.

    There are sites (mainly caravan ones

    I am not nor have I ever been part of any caraven web site or forum. I fail to see anything in my post to suggest this.

    who delight in diggeing at MHer

    Again I see no evidence in my post to suggest I am digging at motorhomers. Rest assured if this was my intention I would chose a topic that affected more than just a tiny minority of MHers

    where the receptor has been well discussed

    I believe that in my post I made it quite clear that I raised this issue because I had not seen it previously discussed.

    is another area when things get heated.

    I see no reason for this post to raise anything more than serious discussion on a topic that obviously some feel has not been covered. I have in fact only seen things get heated when evidence and reasonable argument is put forward and those that have a vested self interest in denying it but are unable to present reasonable counter argument resort to personal insult.

    To be honest most motorhomes are not ncap tested so a very grey area all around

    This statement I feel is the worst, as all it shows is that you failed to show me even the slightest courtesy of reading my post before you responded, if you had you would be aware that I made precisly this point, I quote:

    My understanding is, that as you rightly say motorhomes and "A" frames avoid many of the regulations, the towed car does not.

    where I also expanded upon the point. I completly fail to see the logic in the argument you seem to be making in that because a car is at sometime towed behind a motorhome, when it is removed from the "A" frame and driven solo it somehow remains in the "grey" area and is not required to comply with the very "black & white" area of type approval.

    In makeing this response I have tryed not to make it into a personal attack but to answer those comments made against me in the best way I can. I do not believe that these forums are best served by making personal comments and I have no intention of doing so.

    Regards Geoff. ​
     
  7. Road Runner

    Road Runner Read Only Funster

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    I never set out to upset anyone or make it personal and if I have I apologise for my error

    But

    I use A frame and constantly hope things will get safer so theres never a time when they are outlawed totally.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  8. Road Runner

    Road Runner Read Only Funster

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    This is the quote I refer to and admit it really pi$$es me off but such is life:Wink:


     
  9. Road Runner

    Road Runner Read Only Funster

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    I mention caravaning sites only and no one on here firstly.

    I have to nudge my wall on a regular basis as i am on a steep uneven slope to get the tail in of my toad to get it off the road and never once have the airbag activated:Wink:

    I find this rather like number crunching you can massage them to make them suit your views.

    No insult meant but my view on things:Wink:
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  10. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    Oh, Bo//ocks. now what have i started!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:Doh:
    thanks for the input Geoff and i understand where you're coming from, BUT, like hundreds of other toad tuggers i'll take my chances. :thumb:
     
  11. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    hey geoff, i just re-read your post and i'm lucky in the fact the car is a 1997 model.:thumb:
    though i'm sure there will be some other legislation to say i cant do it. :Angry:

    john.
     
  12. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    well i got down to it today and fitted the 'a' frame pull bar. im glad i have a pit in me garage cos it was bucketing down all day:rain:

    it took about 3 hrs of very careful measuring and drilling but its on and it looks the dogs b%?/+cks. even had 2 self tappers left from the bumper fixings, bonus !
    (wish i knew where they went :Doh:)

    after jumping up and down in frustration from time to time, i jumped up and down on the bar....solid!!!!:clap:

    got to sort the electrics now. wire into cars harness or trailer board? problem with trailer board is fixing securely to the car. i thought about two board lights and reflectors on magnets if i go the board route and chuck 'em in the boot when not needed. open to suggestions!!!!!!!!!

    then order and fit the brake cable and then i can be a real 'toad tugger':thumb:

    john.
     

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