Bio Diesel - Can I use it

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by gradyp, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. gradyp

    gradyp Funster

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    Hi ,, locally there is a company advertising Bio Diesel at a minimum of 10p per litre cheaper than the local Morrisons/Asda prices.

    I have 2009 Roller Team on a Ford 2.4 diesel

    What is Bio Diesel ?
    Can I use Bio Diesel in my motorhome ?
    If I can , can I use long term with no detrimental effect to the engine ?

    I'm a little nervous to use it as I do not know anything about it

    Thanks
     
  2. rainbow chasers

    rainbow chasers Read Only Funster

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    Not in yours - you tend to get away with it with older 'not too fussy' engines, and predominently those running bosch fuel pumps.

    The transit has a pretty weak fuel pump at best, and with replacements running at £1400 margin, I wouldn't risk it.

    Biodeisel is effectively manufactured veg oil. It is mixed with an acid to remove the fats by solidifying them. The remainder is then used as a fuel oil. Some mix with white diesel - others do not, and prefer to use heating systems to preheat the oil before it reaches the engine (especially in winter) as the oil is slightly thicker. it effectively costs around £35p a litre area.

    Possible damage can be 'gumming up' of the injectors, pump and fuel lines.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Funster Life Member

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    I could tell you a great deal about bio diesel having worked at a research institute for the last 23 years as the operations' manager, making it, using it and working closely with fuel companies and farmers that grow gm crops for it. But best way is contact your engine manufacturer and ask for advice. If you Naf the fuel system up trying to save a few quid it could cost you £1000+ to put it right. you will always get the ones that will tell you 'I've been using it for years, never had any problem. not worth the risk for a few quid.
    Steve

    Biodiesel, in theory, can go into all diesel engines as the diesel engine itself was designed to run on plant oil.However it is the parts attached to the diesel engine which could potentially cause problems – although the vast majority of diesels on the road are fine running on 100% biodiesel.In reality, the rule of thumb is you can use 100% biodiesel in any diesel built between 1990-2004, but be aware that a one-off fuel filter change will be needed after you first make the transition (and any mix of biodiesel and fossil diesel is OK too).I would recommend that cars built after 2004 should run on a 50% blend not 100%.Be aware too that biodiesel made from waste cooking oil will freeze in winter and so from November to April one should blend that kind of Biodiesel at 50% as well.However, Biodiesel made from a Rapeseed crop (RME) will not freeze and can be used at 100% all year round in the UK.Please note that it is advisable to purchase biodiesel with EN14214 specification, that gives you some guarantee of quality.In short – to be safe, use RME Biodiesel at EN14214 in a car built between 1990 and 2004 and then you can be carbon neutral all year without problems!
    In terms of official compatibility, despite the majority of diesel vehicles on the road being fine on 100%, only a handful of companies will officially approve their vehicles for 100% use.The companies that have approved 100% biodiesel are VW, Audi, SEAT and Skoda.They have approved all their cars built between 1996 and 2004 on 100% use of "RME" Biodiesel (Biodiesel made from Rapeseed) providing it meets the specification DIN41606 (which was later replaced by EN14214).These companies can still provide some brand new cars warranted on 100% biodiesel but one has to request it (best to get the official letter from German Base as some UK agents aren't fully aware).As these companies have officially approved 100% biodiesel I urge you to use your consumer power to support them in supporting the environmental movement.(e.g. Ask manufacturers directly via www.volkswagen.de/vwcms_publish/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/de3/dialogcenter/dialog.html)
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
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  4. Snowbird

    Snowbird Funster Life Member

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    No one person is going to tell you that your vehicle is suitable, for the simple reason that they have no control over the quality of biofuels you are using.
    Some vehicle manufacturers like VW, BMW, Volvo, Skoda and Saab used to recommend the use of biofuels in there vehicles and stated it would not effect the warranty. Then they realised there were many differing qualities of biofuel, some just filtered palm oil. So now they have all taken a step back and stated that biofuels are not to be used.
     
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  5. DuxDeluxe

    DuxDeluxe Funster Life Member

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    Having spent £xxxxx on a new van and £xxxxx on a car, both diesel there is no way that I would use fuel other than that recommended by the manufacturer i.e. EN590. Good comments above about the specs for pure bio fuel. EN590- contains up to 7% EN14214 bio fuel.
     
  6. Snowbird

    Snowbird Funster Life Member

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    Taken from the biodiesel website.

    Biodiesel, in theory, can go into all diesel engines as the diesel engine itself was designed to run on plant oil.However it is the parts attached to the diesel engine which could potentially cause problems – although the vast majority of diesels on the road are fine running on 100% biodiesel.In reality, the rule of thumb is you can use 100% biodiesel in any diesel built between 1990-2004, but be aware that a one-off fuel filter change will be needed after you first make the transition (and any mix of biodiesel and fossil diesel is OK too).I would recommend that cars built after 2004 should run on a 50% blend not 100%.Be aware too that biodiesel made from waste cooking oil will freeze in winter and so from November to April one should blend that kind of Biodiesel at 50% as well.However, Biodiesel made from a Rapeseed crop (RME) will not freeze and can be used at 100% all year round in the UK.Please note that it is advisable to purchase biodiesel with EN14214 specification, that gives you some guarantee of quality.In short – to be safe, use RME Biodiesel at EN14214 in a car built between 1990 and 2004 and then you can be carbon neutral all year without problems!

    In terms of official compatibility, despite the majority of diesel vehicles on the road being fine on 100%, only a handful of companies will officially approve their vehicles for 100% use.The companies that have approved 100% biodiesel are VW, Audi, SEAT and Skoda.They have approved all their cars built between 1996 and 2004 on 100% use of "RME" Biodiesel (Biodiesel made from Rapeseed) providing it meets the specification DIN41606 (which was later replaced by EN14214).These companies can still provide some brand new cars warranted on 100% biodiesel but one has to request it (best to get the official letter from German Base as some UK agents aren't fully aware).As these companies have officially approved 100% biodiesel I urge you to use your consumer power to support them in supporting the environmental movement.(e.g. Ask manufacturers directly via www.volkswagen.de/vwcms_publish/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/de3/dialogcenter/dialog.html)

    Technical Details & Standards

    There are three existing specification standards for diesel & Biodiesel fuels (EN590, DIN 51606 & EN14214).

    EN590 (actually EN590:2000) describes the physical properties that all diesel fuel must meet if it is to be sold in the EU, Czech Republic, Iceland, Norway or Switzerland.It allows the blending of up to 5% Biodiesel with 'normal' DERV - a 95/5 mix.In some countries such as France, all diesel sold routinely contains this 95/5 mix.

    DIN 51606 is a German standard for Biodiesel, is considered to be the highest standard currently existing, and is regarded by almost all vehicle manufacturers as evidence of compliance with the strictest standards for diesel fuels.The vast majority of Biodiesel produced commercially meets or exceeds this standard.

    EN14214 EN14214 is the standard for biodiesel now having recently been finalized by the European Standards organisationCEN.It is broadly based on DIN 51606.

    Specifications:


    Criteria Derv (EN590) Biodiesel (DIN51606) Biodiesel (EN14214)
    Density @ 15°C (g/cm³) 0.82-0.86 0.875-0.9 0.86-0.9
    Viscosity @ 40°C (mm²/s) 2.0-4.5 3.5-5.0 3.5-5.0
    Flashpoint(°C) >55 >110 >101
    Sulphur (% mass) 0.20 <0.01 <0.01
    Sulphated Ash (% mass) 0.01 <0.03 0.02
    Water (mg/kg) 200 :h:00 <500
    Carbon Residue (% weight) 0.30 <0.03 <0.03
    Total Contamination (mg/kg) Unknown <20 <24
    Copper Corrosion 3h/50°C Class 1 Class 1 Class 1
    Cetane Number >45 >49 >51
    Methanol (% mass) Unknown <0.3 <0.2
    Ester Content (% mass) Unknown >96.5 >96.5
    Monoglycides (% mass) Unknown <0.8 <0.8
    Diglyceride (% mass) Unknown <0.4 <0.2
    Tridlycende (% mass) Unknown <0.4 <0.4
    Free Glycerol (% mass) Unknown <0.02 <0.02
    Total Glycerol (% mass) Unknown <0.25 <0.25
    Lodine Number Unknown <115 120
    Phosphor (mg/kg) Unknown <10 <10
    Alcaline Metals Na. K (mg/kg) Unknown <5 <5
     
  7. DuxDeluxe

    DuxDeluxe Funster Life Member

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    EN 14214 is the spec for FAME which is a component of EN590 diesel. EN 14214 does not itself meet EN590 as the viscosity limits are different and there is no test for lubricity (which it would likely pass anyway)

    Road fuel has to meet the EN590 spec in EU and the FAME component itself must meet the EN14214 spec that you mentioned - It also seems to refer to the 2000 spec not the latest 2009 spec as this allows up to 7% FAME

    Interesting link here

    I still would not use FAME/Chipfat/whatever in any of my vehicles if it did not meet the spec as laid down by the manufacturer - we do the testing on the stuff........
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
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  8. neilydun

    neilydun Read Only Funster

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    I ran my Toyota Hilux 2008, common rail, d4d on veg oil, or svo, for 50,000 miles.
    It had the heat exchanger fitted, which was mentioned earlier.
    Never had a problem.
    I also changed the egine oil every 5000 miles.
    I was buying oil for 70p a litre, so much cheaper than diesel.
    So long as you don`t exceed 2500 litres per year, it`s all legal, despite what some people think.

    I did try running a Range Rover TDV6 on bio, but, it clogged the fuel filter, and also put too much strain on the in tank pump, which I ended up having to replace.
     
  9. stevensson10

    stevensson10

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    bio

    leave well alone it could cost you a fortune its a mixture of veg oil if they haven't drained all the fat then it could cause no end of problems steve
     
  10. AndyPandy

    AndyPandy Read Only Funster

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    All I know is, there are approx 450 boats in our marina, most of which have a Diesel engine and some of which have diesel heating. NOT ONE runs 100% bio.

    Now we get red diesel which is partially duty free but is about £1 a litre, but have been offered bio at much less than that.

    Changing fuel filters at sea is a pain and pumps, well I'll stick to what comes out the fuel pump thanks,

    Andy
     
  11. gradyp

    gradyp Funster

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    I think I'll leave it alone

    The small millage I will be doing over the year 4k to 5k a yesr the costs are not massive , but they could be if it went wrong
     
  12. Candy Floss

    Candy Floss Funster

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    Bio Diesel

    I was also advised to leave this alone for the same reasons

    Mad Floss
     
  13. Snowbird

    Snowbird Funster Life Member

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    This warning is very true... All biofuel should be treated as an experimental fuel and as such if not produced correctly may damage your engine.
    I have been using biofuel for several years over many, many, thousands of miles without problem. The reason for this is that after months of study I was able to produce a quality product. All my vehicles have been purchased for there ability to be run reliably on biofuel. There is a huge difference in purchasing a vehicle first, then trying to run it on biofuels.
     
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  14. pudseykeith

    pudseykeith Read Only Funster

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    Just a quick thankyou to all you funsters who have researched this isue and are good enough to pass on the knowledge you have gained. A very good thread.
    Pudseykeith :thumb:
     
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  15. Snowbird

    Snowbird Funster Life Member

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    Your van as mine will run happily with it Keith. Quite possibly better than fossil fuel. I give you my word :thumb:.
     
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