Beware of Re-Mapping or Chipping (1 Viewer)

[Petest]

Help satisfy my curiosity.
Those that have had problems after a remap / box, what engine did you have.
I've only read a bit but is it more the 2.8 that has had problems?
I had my transit for 6 years with a remap. Ran flawlessly but I wasn't really interested in peddle to the metal driving - more relaxed driving, less gear changing.
Had mine done by Martin at van tuner.
I will be getting the boxer done at some point but there are other priorities at the moment

 

[Forestboy]

@Petest
All the ones I know with problems are 2.8 jtd and all over 4 tonnes. Which probably means the clutch is only just fit for purpose and not able to cope with the increase in power.

 

[Boringfrog]

Still waiting for stage 3 clutch info. Maybe meant 3 piece!

Anyone?

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[MC 55 FUN]

@Petest

My old Ford Mondeo MK3 ST TDCi, with a Ford Puma engine ( 2.2 155bhp ), as fitted, albeit detuned, in many MH's, ran flawlessly after a Superchips Bluefin remap as does my PSA 2.2 230bhp in my current Ford Mondeo.

 

[Charlie]

With respect.

A cheap tuning piggyback box off EBay or even an overinflated priced one is asking for trouble.

These devices often contain no more than a couple of resisters that simply keep the turbo boosting longer. When prolonging boost duration and the point boost duration is happening extra fuel must be injected or the engine at that point will be running lean . The consequences of this makes the cost of a clutch pale into insignificance.

The clutch on the 2.8 is now very well reputed to be not up to the job so for me it's leave it alone.

Installing a heavy duty clutch can increase the pressure required to depres the pedal. This may make a manual transmission vehicle somewhat unpleasant to drive as the characteristics can and often change dramatically and for the worse .

 

[Motorhome Man]

@Boringfrog
As per my original thread, check out Larkspeed or google or ebay stage 3 clutch. Simple really.
Luke

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[dabhand]

Just as a matter of interest, if people don't like the engines on their motorhomes why did they buy them in the first place, got a Hymer on a Merc, very fast with plenty of torque, on my third, the only thing that needs remapping is my right foot!

 

[Enword]

Had our 2.8 remapped it went from being a pain to drive to a absolute pleasure, before you had to keep it 65-70 at least to stay in 5th, where as after you could come down to 40ish less gear changes same on fuel. No clutch issues, But I had spoken to our race car clutch man before having it done " he said there are two different friction materials used 1 hard 1 softer & that he'd build me one that wouldn't slip if I had problems, One thing does come to mind is when I sold our race van last year (Sprinter 310D) the chap took it for a drive, going out of the village there's a long drag, cold engine 3rd gear hot engine 4th just, when he drove it cold engine he went all the way in 5th with the van laboring very badly, I said you need to change down, his reply "It wont be any faster" My point is if it had been mapped I think it would have induced clutch slip.

 

[Enword]

Just as a matter of interest, if people don't like the engines on their motorhomes why did they buy them in the first place, got a Hymer on a Merc, very fast with plenty of torque, on my third, the only thing that needs remapping is my right foot!

Yep 316 Sprinter towing large trailer not had it Mapped I love it, but the Fiat 2.8 was a pain before it was mapped.

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[Charlie]

Just as a matter of interest, if people don't like the engines on their motorhomes why did they buy them in the first place, got a Hymer on a Merc, very fast with plenty of torque, on my third, the only thing that needs remapping is my right foot!

Is that a serious question ? I will assume it is.

Perhaps not all of could have afforded a posh Hymer on a posh Merc chassis.

For us we had a budget. I as the driver wanted as new a vehicle as we could get in that budget and naturally the layout that suited us.

So once we found that motor home in the condition we wanted ( Absolutely mint ) In the layout we wanted (It is) the right age (17 months old) and the right mileage ( Just over 8.000 miles) would have been sensible to reject that to us fabulous motor home because it has the 130 BHP and not the 150 that if given the chance and the budget would have been nice ?

To do so would have been silly really so as I am reasonably knowledgeable when it comes to mapping it is dead easy to sort the job out with a relatively small amount of money.

So that is what will be done in the very near.

The price of a remap to get beyond that 150 BHP figure is way way less than the premium demanded by buying a 150 If I could have found one anyway.

 

[dabhand]

Is that a serious question ? I will assume it is.

Perhaps not all of could have afforded a posh Hymer on a posh Merc chassis.

For us we had a budget. I as the driver wanted as new a vehicle as we could get in that budget and naturally the layout that suited us.

So once we found that motor home in the condition we wanted ( Absolutely mint ) In the layout we wanted (It is) the right age (17 months old) and the right mileage ( Just over 8.000 miles) would have been sensible to reject that to us fabulous motor home because it has the 130 BHP and not the 150 that if given the chance and the budget would have been nice ?

To do so would have been silly really so as I am reasonably knowledgeable when it comes to mapping it is dead easy to sort the job out with a relatively small amount of money.

So that is what will be done in the very near.

The price of a remap to get beyond that 150 BHP figure is way way less than the premium demanded by buying a 150 If I could have found one anyway.

I suppose part of my point, although perhaps not made eloquently enough, is why do the manufacturers put engines in motorhomes that are not up to the job, only to have people fiddle with them afterwards, why don't the manufacturers "remap" them themselves, or is there a reason they don't? As for a posh Hymer on a posh Merc chassis, Not sure what to make of that statement, but the rest of your post seems eminently sensible to me, all 3 of my previous motorhomes were on Mercs, all second hand and within a budget, the first being a 1983 vehicle with an unsophisticated manual gearbox, but it still had enough grunt to go very fast if required with plenty of torque, don't know enough about remapping although I understand it might void your insurance if you don't declare it, but then I don't know enough about that either. Anyhow I'm really pleased you like your van as that's what it's all about.

 

[Charlie]

It would look like they now make what i would call a paddle clutch which would be a great improvement.
Steve

A paddle clutch is essentially for race / track application. Paddle clutches are like on/off switches . Fine for getting off the line at a track but never in a million years would a driver..... Any drive be able to cope with a paddle clutch on a road car and especially in traffic. Wear rates on these parts is simply massive as they in race circles deemed to be consumable parts. I had one in a track day Impreza and it was horrendous to use and the life span was extremely short.

I an genuinly amazed to see one for the 2.8 JTD !

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[Charlie]

I suppose part of my point, although perhaps not made eloquently enough, is why do the manufacturers put engines in motorhomes that are not up to the job, only to have people fiddle with them afterwards, why don't the manufacturers "remap" them themselves, or is there a reason they don't? As for a posh Hymer on a posh Merc chassis, Not sure what to make of that statement, but the rest of your post seems eminently sensible to me, all 3 of my previous motorhomes were on Mercs, all second hand and within a budget, the first being a 1983 vehicle with an unsophisticated manual gearbox, but it still had enough grunt to go very fast if required with plenty of torque, don't know enough about remapping although I understand it might void your insurance if you don't declare it, but then I don't know enough about that either. Anyhow I'm really pleased you like your van as that's what it's all about.

Your Hymer on its Mercedes chassis is a dream machine for many of us. What I meant though badly worded was not all of us can afford to stretch that far when looking for a certain vehicle of a certain age. Not unlike my wish list above if you like. Looking again my post was a wee but flippant and I apologise for that.

The manufacturers as written above have certain requirements forced upon them when mapping vehicles. This is not optional it is an absolute requirement so not to do would mean they would not be able to sell the vehicles unless they meet the environmental requirements of the target market they are selling in .

So unless we can or are fortunate enough to get what we want off the shelf we have the option of improving what we have. As aftermarket tuners have no set parameters to work within they can deliver the map the manufacturer would have done if not nailed down to the requirements I mention above.

A little like taking a few bags of grain off a horses back and watching it run free.

Anyone mapping a vehicle is altering its performance from that of a standard vehicle. So must notify the insurers or risk all kinds of hell if the brown should hit the fan .

Another wee point.. The 130BHP in our van which is a panel van conversion would be plenty in a normal panel van. But we are essentially driving a fully laden van very nearly all of the time. If the panel van was originally designed

 

[jaygee]

Not wishing to go over old ground, as there has been many discussions about re mapping which can be found in the archives but just a bit of an update as this is the first long outing since i had mine REMOVED, we are now down in Spain. No more clutch slip, could have done with a bit more power at times, had to change down a gear on long steep climbs, so what, it is a 5 tonne tag axle and did return a reasonable 22mph on Shell v power.
So happy bunny but not with WOW who originally fitted a generic up grade to my MH not taking into consideration type and weight of MH or even that i already had the up rated 127ps engine.
The clutch is not up to the extra stress on a MH such as mine, did try to source an up grade but none available at that time and did find that decent fuel made a difference (think that quote may start another post)
Tony

 

[Charlie]

Not wishing to go over old ground, as there has been many discussions about re mapping which can be found in the archives but just a bit of an update as this is the first long outing since i had mine REMOVED, we are now down in Spain. No more clutch slip, could have done with a bit more power at times, had to change down a gear on long steep climbs, so what, it is a 5 tonne tag axle and did return a reasonable 22mph on Shell v power.
So happy bunny but not with WOW who originally fitted a generic up grade to my MH not taking into consideration type and weight of MH or even that i already had the up rated 127ps engine.
The clutch is not up to the extra stress on a MH such as mine, did try to source an up grade but none available at that time and did find that decent fuel made a difference (think that quote may start another post)
Tony

I have done exhaustive tests on using quality fuel. 100% always use quality fuel.

As you say its maybe for another thread

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[gus-lopez]

I suppose part of my point, although perhaps not made eloquently enough, is why do the manufacturers put engines in motorhomes that are not up to the job, only to have people fiddle with them afterwards, why don't the manufacturers "remap" them themselves, or is there a reason they don't? .

They do . Say for example you by the 130 , the manufacturer also sells a 150. For a lot more money. Then there'll be a 180 , even dearer. All the same engine just a different map. Best one used to be the Ford galaxy started as a 90ps then a 105, then 115 then 130. only difference was the price & the mapping.

 

[Boringfrog]

A paddle clutch is essentially for race / track application. Paddle clutches are like on/off switches . Fine for getting off the line at a track but never in a million years would a driver..... Any drive be able to cope with a paddle clutch on a road car and especially in traffic. Wear rates on these parts is simply massive as they in race circles deemed to be consumable parts. I had one in a track day Impreza and it was horrendous to use and the life span was extremely short.

I an genuinly amazed to see one for the 2.8 JTD !

Made to order.

 

[Charlie]

They do . Say for example you by the 130 , the manufacturer also sells a 150. For a lot more money. Then there'll be a 180 , even dearer. All the same engine just a different map. Best one used to be the Ford galaxy started as a 90ps then a 105, then 115 then 130. only difference was the price & the mapping.

It's not always down to just mapping. Higher flow injectors and /0r exhausts inlet manifolds and a few other tweaks. It could even be minor changes to clutch assembly's as the power climbs..

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[Charlie]

Made to order.

Bet they don't make many.

Fitting a paddle clutch to van let alone a motor home is about as daft as it gets. Bit like putting a top hat on a tramp .

 

[Boringfrog]

Bet they don't make many.

Fitting a paddle clutch to van let alone a motor home is about as daft as it gets. Bit like putting a top hat on a tramp .

 

[DuxDeluxe]

They do . Say for example you by the 130 , the manufacturer also sells a 150. For a lot more money. Then there'll be a 180 , even dearer. All the same engine just a different map. Best one used to be the Ford galaxy started as a 90ps then a 105, then 115 then 130. only difference was the price & the mapping.

Not quite - similar to Mercedes with their different power outputs, the turbo can also differ, in that the higher output engine has something like a twin scroll turbo to give the extra power.

I won't answer the subject of fuels - but it did used to be what I did for a living.............

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[Charlie]

Mondeo 2.0 was 140

Not quite - similar to Mercedes with their different power outputs, the turbo can also differ, in that the higher output engine has something like a twin scroll turbo to give the extra power.

I won't answer the subject of fuels - but it did used to be what I did for a living.............

Aye that'll be supercharged though ? What Mercedes like to call Kompressor ?

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Mondeo 2.0 was 140


Aye that'll be supercharged though ? What Mercedes like to call Kompressor ?

Well, the c220 is a 2.1 lump with single turbo and the c250 is the same lump with sequential turbos both the OM651 engine

 

[Enword]

I got customers with hex paddle clutches in road cars quite drivable would never know the difference also 4 paddle on the road with harder friction material are not a bad compromise.

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[Charlie]

I got customers with hex paddle clutches in road cars quite drivable would never know the difference also 4 paddle on the road with harder friction material are not a bad compromise.

Are you seriously suggesting a paddle clutch for a motor home ?

 

[tonyidle]

With respect.

A cheap tuning piggyback box off EBay or even an overinflated priced one is asking for trouble.

These devices often contain no more than a couple of resisters that simply keep the turbo boosting longer. When prolonging boost duration and the point boost duration is happening extra fuel must be injected or the engine at that point will be running lean . The consequences of this makes the cost of a clutch pale into insignificance.

The clutch on the 2.8 is now very well reputed to be not up to the job so for me it's leave it alone.

Installing a heavy duty clutch can increase the pressure required to depres the pedal. This may make a manual transmission vehicle somewhat unpleasant to drive as the characteristics can and often change dramatically and for the worse .

A Diesel can't be damaged by running lean - it does so continually.

 

[Enword]

All I'm saying is with a good hex you would have a job to tell the difference between a normal clutch they don't snatch like a soft friction 4

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[Charlie]

All I'm saying is with a good hex you would have a job to tell the difference between a normal clutch they don't snatch like a soft friction 4

Wear rates ? We are talking about a clutch designed for competition use .

 

[tonyidle]

A paddle clutch is essentially for race / track application. Paddle clutches are like on/off switches . Fine for getting off the line at a track but never in a million years would a driver..... Any drive be able to cope with a paddle clutch on a road car and especially in traffic. Wear rates on these parts is simply massive as they in race circles deemed to be consumable parts. I had one in a track day Impreza and it was horrendous to use and the life span was extremely short.

I an genuinly amazed to see one for the 2.8 JTD !

It rather depends on the friction material and number of paddles. A 'normal' clutch is a paddle clutch without the gaps. Paddle clutches for racing are optimised for maximum abuse and can employ sintered metal or ceramic paddles. A paddle clutch with conventional material achieves a better grip through higher clamping pressure - not necessarily a heavier diaphragm, just less friction material area to clamp. It also dissipates heat more quickly. I suspect the one intended for the Ducato is optimised for road use.

 

[Enword]

So how many racing starts do you do with your MH

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