Bessacarr 765 fit for 4 or illegal ? (1 Viewer)

[Vlad The Impaler]

Been looking at a couple of new motorhomes and wondering about belted seats.I thought that pre 2007 vans could seat more passengers than belts but after that you ,by law ,had to have belts for every passenger!Is this true?
I had seen a good bessacarr 765 however it was advertised as a 4 berth,a nice van with 2 bench seats behind the drivers and a fixed end bed. Now the confusion, it only has belts on the drivers seats, ,the two bench seats have and are not suitable for belts so surely this makes it an exceptionally spacious 2 berth.
Now the van looks great but how could I carry my 2 young girls safely and legally! Or am I missing the obvious ?
All thoughts and opinions welcomed.


Vlad .

 

[pappajohn]

All vehicles manufactured since 2001 must have seat belts fitted for each passenger.
Seat belts must be used whenever fitted, with no exception.

so it looks like the van is a four berth for sleeping purposes, as that has nothing to do with seat belts or anything else related to actually driving it, but only two travelling seats.

certainly not unusual

 

[DesRes]

I think you already realize Vlad, you can't carry your family safely in that van.
Keep looking bud...:thumb:

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[duane0001]

In my opinion you cant carry anyone in the back of a coach built safely, Belted or not
They simply dont have the array of safety features protecting the rear passengers.
And the rear passengers are sitting in what is a cheap wood framed caravan bolted onto the back of a vehicle

Just my opinion!
What do others think?

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Pappajohn I was led to believe there was a change in the law in 2007 .before that passengers did not have to have belts but passengers had to be carried responsibly and not in an unsafe manner .

 

[Ivory55]

Not that we intend driving with an unbelted passenger, we heeded everyone's advice when we asked this previously - that our son's safety was more important but, out of interest we asked our insurance company and they advised that if the DVLA agreed then we would be insured. We wrote to the DVLA and received a reply on 18 February 2013 - The road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 require that seatbelts be provided for forward facing front seats only. Other seating positions within the vehicle need not be provided with seatbelts, but if they are they shall comply with the appropriate technical requirements. Nevertheless, our (DVLA) advice is that passengers are safest travelling in a forward or rearward facing seat equipped with a three-point seat belt.

The DVLA then enclosed an information sheet covering seating requirements in Campervans. which says:
Although is is not specifically illegal to travel in the accommodation area of a campervan, you should bear in mind that this area would not have been specifically designed for use when travelling and Regulation 100 of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986 No 1078) may apply. This requires:
a motor vehicle, and all its parts and accessories;
the number of passengers carried, and the manner in which any passengers are carried in or on a vehicle; and
the weight,distribution,packing and adjustment of the load of a vehicle,
to be at all times such that no danger is caused, or is likely to be caused, to any person in or on a vehicle or on a road.
It goes on to say that a person is guilty of an offence if he uses, or causes or permits another to us, a motor vehicle or trailer on a road when:
(a) the condition of the motor vehicle or trailer, or of its accessories or equipment; or
(b) the purpose for which it is used;or
(c) the number of passengers carried by it, or the manner in which they are carried; or
(d) the weight, position or distribution of its load, or the manner in which it is secured;

is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person.

As Motorhomefun pointed out to us previously - is it worth taking a risk with the safety, or perhaps life, of your passenger? ivory55

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[pappajohn]

In my opinion you cant carry anyone in the back of a coach built safely, Belted or not
They simply dont have the array of safety features protecting the rear passengers.
And the rear passengers are sitting in what is a cheap wood framed caravan bolted onto the back of a vehicle

Just my opinion!
What do others think?

Agreed, get hit from behind by a sleeping HGV or coach driver travelling at speed and the front seat occupiers will be lucky not to get hurt, never mind anyone in the back.

no crumple zone, no safety shell...nowt but a wood and fiberglass box

the attached video was a front end corner impact but the damage is massive.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj5U5hWWfis"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj5U5hWWfis[/ame]

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Diane001 have to disagree with you on that one ,at the moment 1 have a 2004 24 ft coach built and there are 3point seatbelts for the kids in the dinette .these are fixed to a steel frame and bolted to the chassi totally different to the dinette seats in a van conversion and taking into account crumple zones probably a lot safer than the front seats,if hit head on.
Agreed the very back of the van is vulnerable but a car is too.

 

[duane0001]

Yeah I would imagine getting rammed from behind would probably result in getting an overhead cabinet in the back of the head, That would smart a bit

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[duane0001]

I still say that no one is safe in the back of a coach built, Flimsy steel cage or no steel cage
Watch this
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9vZdoomTuA"]Fiat Ducato Camper "Wohnwagen" (48 Km/h) Frontal Impact - YouTube[/ame]

 

[duane0001]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKCtTN2D3yA"]Total Schaden Wohnmobil - YouTube[/ame]

 

[darklord]

:thumb:1st...Johns Cross have a E765 if you did,nt know (looked at it today).

2nd, we get this problem twofold, as we have a MH and a landrover, many of which are fitted with inward facing seats. As far as I understand it, cars with inward facing seats are no longer allowed to be manufactured, but those with, can still be used according to law although numbers may be restricted by insurance companies (ie 12 seater landrovers cut down to 8 seats).
Our MH has two belts in front, and two in the hab area forward facing, our grandchildren come in sets of three, so we get around it by sticking one small person (over 11 yrs old) in the front, the two others in the rear, and my wife unbelted, sits with them.
I am in the motor trade, and could fit extra belts, but to be honest, the conversion would have to pass so much red tape, it would,nt be worth it.

For those who like showing crash test's.......ANY crash test looks bad, its meant to, whether its a MH, a truck, or a milk float (i know, i see ACTUAL results), I,d sooner have someone sitting in the dinette of a MH, than in the rear of a euro box, 12 inches from the plastic back bumper.:thumb:

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[DesRes]

Jeepers, makes me feel like finding an armoured truck for conversion...

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Thanks darklord a good objective reply,that's pretty much what we do if taking one of the kids friends.My point is I thought after 2007 if you made a van and it was advertised as a 4berth it had to have 4 belts? True or false?
Ps have you seen what happens in a plane if it goes tits up .Wont stop me flying though.

 

[Jim]

Here is an article onBroken Link Removed :thumb:

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[duane0001]

DesRes

Like this one DesRes
http://forums.dieselstation.com/index.php?showtopic=8376

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Thanks Jim,so although possibly legal to carry passengers pre 2007 if it does go wrong you may not be insured! But if your vans built after 2007 its not legal to carry passengers unbelted regardless of where they sit and if stopped your knackered.If you have an accident your basically fuc d because any passengers other than the front seat should NOT be there.
Is that how you see it?

 

[Daveo2006]

For those who like showing crash test's.......ANY crash test looks bad, its meant to, whether its a MH, a truck, or a milk float (i know, i see ACTUAL results), I,d sooner have someone sitting in the dinette of a MH, than in the rear of a euro box, 12 inches from the plastic back bumper.

I saw a Hyundai van conversion that had an average side impact to the offside,Not only was everything from the offside detached but also most of the nearside.We stood and tried to work out what went where.

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[darklord]

When first looking, we saw 6 berth motorhomes with only 2 seat belts !!!!, so I always take "Berth" to mean what it does on a ship...."Bed", nothing else.

Just for coversations sake, adding seat belts, or fitting them at manufacture could be a minefield. For instance, in a van with a rear lounge and no forward dinette, could belts be fitted at all in th ehab area? the reason I ask this, is that a good proportion of the rear seating area could be sitting on an extended chassis, which MAY not be as strong, or rated the same as the front section, and MAY not be able, in law, to be used as a seatbelt anchorage point!
I looked into adding some to our fist van with a rear lounge, and could not, due to the water tank, so apart from fitting some kind of subframe that meets DoT standards (and EU) I cant see how it could be done legally.

 

[haganap]

I can categorically confirm that a couple of passenger's in the back of a Bessacar e765 are not breaking the law being there in a manufactured vechile of that date.

I know this because i have one, I have asked the question and had the same answer as the previous poster from both the DVLA my insurance company and the police.

What the law change in 2007 meant was that it was no longer possible to call my van a 6 berth as it only has 2 belted seats, despite the fact it sleeps 6....

I also carry my kids in it from time to time so please feel free to shoot me, and my wife and family have even used the toilet whilst on the move and made me drinks whilst I drive.

In my opinion you are as much as a danger to be killed by one of my bottles of wine, microwave or pair of training shoes flying around in an accident than that you are of anything else.

when I was a child, my dad used to even take me to school on his motorbike aged 4-12 and it was over 2 miles. Remarkable that Im still here at all.

 

[Peter JohnsCross MH]

Whilst you are highly unlikely to have a serious accident, one never knows with some idiots on the road.

Never drive too close to the vehicle in front for a start, that should save a frontal.

If one has children, buy a van with the right number of proper 3 point seat belts fitted, then you will never regret it should you have a prang.

Peter

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[duane0001]

So what you are saying is
I had a prang, some of my kids did not make it,
But I had them belted into what was basically a caravan with an engine so no regrets?

 

[duane0001]

I just had a mega brainwave here
Crew cab?
Thats everybody in a steel purpose made van then put the MH on the back
I have even seen some upper end MH's with wooden sliding doors to separate the cab from the hab area

 

[duane0001]

This with a MH on the back for those that are wondering
Link Removed

What are your thoughts on this?

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[Snowbird]

Well believe it or not my 23 year old German camper is a 2 berth but as its a bar version has full seat belts for 3 people. Another example of German over engineering with 3 pilots seats all facing forward complete with headrests.

 

[Jaws]

Our italian built SEA Miller has 6 seat belts fitted ( all to LARGE steel frames ! ) but is actually a 7 berth.. But one of the unbelted seats is facing backwards so is legal for the full compliment

 

[scotjimland]

This with a MH on the back for those that are wondering
Link Removed

What are your thoughts on this?

I think it's a great idea.. but.. the vast majority of motor caravan buyers are mid to late age couples and while this would be great for taking the grand kids the extra cost would put most off.. it would also make the van longer without giving move usable living space, so a very limited market..

Most families buy caravans, which not only have much more living space but also a lot cheaper and they are also better suited for holidays ..
Kids don't particularly enjoy touring and moving every other day.. and although our three did it, they were much happier when we were on a site for a week or so..

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[cruiser]

cruiser

as a hgv 1 driver.in any veh.if you get hit by anything biger than you.it does not mater how many seatbelts you would be wearing.you will still get hurt.cars are still not that strong.

 

[duane0001]

As a class 1 HGV driver, I look down on Class 2 HGV drivers

 

[Jaws]

As a class 1 HGV driver, I look down on Class 2 HGV drivers

As a c class motorhome driver I look down on panel van conversions but look up to a class drivers

I know my place.

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