Another Vehicle Battery Problem (1 Viewer)

treasuredgiftsuk

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Took our Fiat Ducato Toskana 1985 for a full service and it had to be jumped off. Battery turned engine but it would not start before battery ran out of steam.
During the service the guy said he would flush out the engine as the starting problem plus a lot of smoke coming from the exhaust could be because it had been stood a while and could be clogged up.
Brought it home and found it had a leak underneath, not present before the service. Tried to start it to take back to garage same problem battery turned engine of a short time but it would not start before battery became flat.
Mechanic said it needed new fuel injectors as air was getting into the engine and could be causing the starting problem and also the radiator needed replacing. He checked the battery and said it was ok.
Had this done brought it home and the next day it would not start yet again.
€800 further on and still problems.
Jumped it off and took it back to the garage. The guy rang this morning and said he had tried to start it with a replacement battery but still the same problem. He said the battery was a 70amp and he said he is going to try a 90amp to see if it will give the engine a bit longer boost. He is going to put the battery on today and leave it overnight and then try in the morning when it is very cold.

My question is: Has anyone else ever had this particular problem with a starter batter and if so how was the problem solved? Any suggestions would be appreciated as I am now getting towards the end of my tether.

We have only had this motor home a few weeks and never been able to go anywhere in it yet.

ps when the engine is warm after driving around 10km to the garage it starts perfectly well. :Angry:
 

chrisgreen

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find a machanic,that can fix thing's and does not enjoy dipping his hand in your back pocket so much:Sad:
the main reason i do all my own serviceing and fitting:thumb:

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Emmenay

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I think the mechanic should be doing a compression test by now and testing the glow plug operation.

A diesel engine with very low compression will turn over and over especially when it is cold until the battery gives up. What colour is the smoke? A bluey colour i suspect. What is the mileage?
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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Wise Guys

To you wise guys I am a newbie and paid to join this forum to get helpful advice not wise cracks from jokers. I know sod all about engines and my husband knows even less so your comments are worthless.

But thank you so much not!:whatthe:
 
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wolly

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hi
i have had simaler problam 2.8 engine big old engine to crank over when cold.i bought a new battery last june ok to start my van in warm weather but last week whenit was -4 it just did start. next day about flat.this battery has a cold crancking hour of 630.not power fullenough.so i have just bought today another new battery that has cch of850 and 100ah if yours is starting with jump start i would get battery tested.also get the starter motor checked my old battery sayes it is fully charged but not power fullenough to turn it over fastenough.i try to do my own servicing if i can at least you no it is done hope it helps you
ps i put my daughters battery on my van befor i bought a new on hers is cch 720 and it nearley through it out of its bed so this cch 850 should be on top of its job roll on - 4 0r 5 or7 onley kidding good luck.

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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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I think the mechanic should be doing a compression test by now and testing the glow plug operation.

A diesel engine with very low compression will turn over and over especially when it is cold until the battery gives up. What colour is the smoke? A bluey colour i suspect. What is the mileage?

Hi, the mechanic says the glo plugs are fine but has not mentioned the compression. Yes the smoke is a sort of light/grey blue.

The problem is we are at present living in the Algarve and it is very difficult to find a decent and honest mechanic. They are very thin on the ground.

I shall ask him to do a compression test, what is this exactly?
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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Oh and by the way to quot the above, beginner being the operative word.

THE BEGINNER The beginners guide to motorhomes. Have you just bought your first motorhome? Have you got lots of questions? This Motorhome Beginners forum his the place to ask your first questions. Go on ask away, we don't bite. With so many members ready to help others you will quickly get the answers you need.

chrisgreen find a machanic,that can fix thing's and does not enjoy dipping his hand in your back pocket so much:Sad:
the main reason i do all my own serviceing and fitting


Well maybe one day I will be able to, I am just learning hence asking for help!

nearlyretired No idea, but from other posts you could probably save money by taking it to Morocco and getting it fixed there, probably change from a fiver

If the bloody thing would start I would not have to take it to Morocco!
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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hi
i have had simaler problam 2.8 engine big old engine to crank over when cold.i bought a new battery last june ok to start my van in warm weather but last week whenit was -4 it just did start. next day about flat.this battery has a cold crancking hour of 630.not power fullenough.so i have just bought today another new battery that has cch of850 and 100ah if yours is starting with jump start i would get battery tested.also get the starter motor checked my old battery sayes it is fully charged but not power fullenough to turn it over fastenough.i try to do my own servicing if i can at least you no it is done hope it helps you
ps i put my daughters battery on my van befor i bought a new on hers is cch 720 and it nearley through it out of its bed so this cch 850 should be on top of its job roll on - 4 0r 5 or7 onley kidding good luck.

Hi, thanks for your reply.

I have just spent the last 2 hours researching starting problems and batteries. According to the specialists they say the you should choose a battery with a CCA the same as or not much higher than recommended by the vehicle manufacturer as it can cause other problems. So choosing one much higher worries me a bit.

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chrisgreen

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Oh and by the way to quot the above, beginner being the operative word.

THE BEGINNER The beginners guide to motorhomes. Have you just bought your first motorhome? Have you got lots of questions? This Motorhome Beginners forum his the place to ask your first questions. Go on ask away, we don't bite. With so many members ready to help others you will quickly get the answers you need.

chrisgreen find a machanic,that can fix thing's and does not enjoy dipping his hand in your back pocket so much:Sad:
the main reason i do all my own serviceing and fitting


Well maybe one day I will be able to, I am just learning hence asking for help!

nearlyretired No idea, but from other posts you could probably save money by taking it to Morocco and getting it fixed there, probably change from a fiver

If the bloody thing would start I would not have to take it to Morocco!
i could go through a whole list of thing's that could solve your problem,but i wont,as i think your machanic is taking the piss,and i will not give him ammo to rip you off some more,why did he change the injectors?? as it never solved anything,why did he flush out the cooling system?? as it never solved anything,replacing the rad i can understand if it was leaking:thumb:
so now he is going to possiblely sell you a new battery,wont solve any thing,i would be looking at the starter motor,it works fine with a jump but not off its own battery,mmmmm
and dont worry about the smoke on start up its an old engine, mine smokes a bit on start up, most diesel's do:RollEyes:
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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I think the mechanic should be doing a compression test by now and testing the glow plug operation.

A diesel engine with very low compression will turn over and over especially when it is cold until the battery gives up. What colour is the smoke? A bluey colour i suspect. What is the mileage?

Hi again, just looked up what vehicle compression means and see that it could be the cylinder head gasket. The engine was rebuilt in 2008 and the cylinder head gasket was replaced. Since this was done the vehicle has only been driven 10,000 miles. Oh by the way it has done 170,000 kilometers (105,00 miles) since new.
 
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chrisgreen

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forgot to mention that a cold engine takes a lot more cranking by the starter than a warm engine,and being a diesel a whole lot more:Smile:

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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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i could go through a whole list of thing's that could solve your problem,but i wont,as i think your machanic is taking the piss,and i will not give him ammo to rip you off some more,why did he change the injectors?? as it never solved anything,why did he flush out the cooling system?? as it never solved anything,replacing the rad i can understand if it was leaking:thumb:
so now he is going to possiblely sell you a new battery,wont solve any thing,i would be looking at the starter motor,it works fine with a jump but not off its own battery,mmmmm
and dont worry about the smoke on start up its an old engine, mine smokes a bit on start up, most diesel's do:RollEyes:

Thanks Chris. The reason he changed the injectors was that he said it was leaking diesel.
It was not the cooling system he flushed out but the engine I believe ie fuel side of it.
The radiator was not leaking but a lot of the fins were missing at the back so was in poor condition. He did show us it after taking it out.
The guy we bought it from had just had a new starter motor before he drove it out here in September last year.
As per my other entry:

Hi again, just looked up what vehicle compression means and see that it could be the cylinder head gasket. The engine was rebuilt in 2008 and the cylinder head gasket was replaced. Since this was done the vehicle has only been driven 10,000 miles. Oh by the way it has done 170,000 kilometers (105,00 miles) since new.
 
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chrisgreen

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so the guy you bought it off fitted a new starter,now we are getting somewere:thumb:perhaps he had starting problems??
get the guy to do a compression test,dont worry about the headcasket,might not be that,i wont go into what it could be untill the result of a compression test?:Smile:
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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so the guy you bought it off fitted a new starter,now we are getting somewere:thumb:perhaps he had starting problems??
get the guy to do a compression test,dont worry about the headcasket,might not be that,i wont go into what it could be untill the result of a compression test?:Smile:

Hi Chris,

I have been suspicious from the start about starting problems because:

He spent over £2,000 having the engine rebuilt because he said it had an oil leak.
Not long after he had the cylinder head gasket done.
He bought a new battery and starter motor last September.
Silly me thought, at the time of buying, that if it had, had all that work done on it then it must be good.
Oh yes and by the way, at some point a previous owner had fitted a manual choke lever to the dashboard. Do diesels even have chokes?

All this makes me wonder if this vehicle has always had a problem starting and what in gods name will the solution be.

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wolly

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wolly

hi
manufacture tells me more cch the better and can do no damage what-soever.it could onley rip engine mountings off i dont think
 
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chrisgreen

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Hi Chris,

I have been suspicious from the start about starting problems because:

He spent over £2,000 having the engine rebuilt because he said it had an oil leak.
Not long after he had the cylinder head gasket done.
He bought a new battery and starter motor last September.
Silly me thought, at the time of buying, that if it had, had all that work done on it then it must be good.
Oh yes and by the way, at some point a previous owner had fitted a manual choke lever to the dashboard. Do diesels even have chokes?

All this makes me wonder if this vehicle has always had a problem starting and what in gods name will the solution be.
no diesel dont have chokes,but some do have a cold starting system that will allow more fuel to enter the cylinders,some are electronic and some are operated by a soleniod and a short cable,it might be this that he has connected the cable to, doing away with the soleniod,could be worn bores dropping the compression,hard to tell unless i had the van here,but that not an option with you being in portugal:Sad:
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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no diesel dont have chokes,but some do have a cold starting system that will allow more fuel to enter the cylinders,some are electronic and some are operated by a soleniod and a short cable,it might be this that he has connected the cable to, doing away with the soleniod,could be worn bores dropping the compression,hard to tell unless i had the van here,but that not an option with you being in portugal:Sad:
Hi Chris,

Shame we aren't in the UK would feel much happier getting it fixed there. Thanks for your help, will see what the mechanic has to say tomorrow. According to my husband the mechanic talked about maybe doing a compression test when we took it in yesterday.
After reading up on compression tests this should have been done before putting a new fuel injector kit in if I have read correctly a compression test will also determine if this is necessary. Cheers!

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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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hi
manufacture tells me more cch the better and can do no damage what-soever.it could onley rip engine mountings off i dont think

Sorry are we talking about something different. I am talking cca cold cranking amps. Don't know what cch is.
 
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Emmenay

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Hi again, just looked up what vehicle compression means and see that it could be the cylinder head gasket. The engine was rebuilt in 2008 and the cylinder head gasket was replaced. Since this was done the vehicle has only been driven 10,000 miles. Oh by the way it has done 170,000 kilometers (105,00 miles) since new.

I don't wish to worry you but;

High mileage = Worn bores/piston rings = low compression = Harder to start = blue smoke when started = constantly topping up engine oil.

If you fit a much more powerful battery you will have better chance of it starting after a few turns but the root cause will remain.

I would strongly suggest you find another mechanic as trial and error before a compression test is not acceptable. If he was machanically minded the symptons you decribe plus the high mileage says it all i'm afraid.
 
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pappajohn

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No idea, but from other posts you could probably save money by taking it to Morocco and getting it fixed there, probably change from a fiver :Smile:
or a mechanic with mechanical knowledge.

without seeing, hearing, trying it, i would list ...

poor engine earth

starter motor faulty (high resistance)

glowplugs or relay not working


no good trying a bigger battery just to make it crank a little longer....theres obviously a starting problem needs fixing first.

the recent very cold snap has seen my Volvo (2.5ltr 5 cylinder diesel with 120,000mls) battery on its last legs, barely turning the engine from cold, but it still starts within 2 or 3 seconds.

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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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I don't wish to worry you but;

High mileage = Worn bores/piston rings = low compression = Harder to start = blue smoke when started = constantly topping up engine oil.

If you fit a much more powerful battery you will have better chance of it starting after a few turns but the root cause will remain.

I would strongly suggest you find another mechanic as trial and error before a compression test is not acceptable. If he was machanically minded the symptons you decribe plus the high mileage says it all i'm afraid.

Thanks for your reply. I think you are talking cylinder head problems but 10,000's ago the engine was rebuilt and a new head gasket. Surely it could not be this yet again!

High mileage: I did thought that 105,00 miles on a diesel engine was not so bad.
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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without seeing, hearing, trying it, i would list ...

poor engine earth

starter motor faulty (high resistance)

glowplugs or relay not working


no good trying a bigger battery just to make it crank a little longer....theres obviously a starting problem needs fixing first.

the recent very cold snap has seen my Volvo (2.5ltr 5 cylinder diesel with 120,000mls) battery on its last legs, barely turning the engine from cold, but it still starts within 2 or 3 seconds.

Thanks pappajohn. As said previously good mechanics in the Algarve are about as rare as earthworms at the North Pole. We have picked the best of a bad bunch.

Maybe just get a stronger battery just to get us back to UK then find a reputable garage. Breaks my heart that we have already spend over €800 and still have the same problem.
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

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Oh folks here is the update.

Yes the mechanic did get us to buy a new battery but it has turned out to be worth its weight in gold.

The previous battery was a 12v 70aH the mechanic put a 12v 90ah on and she started with no problem. He assured me that there is no problem with the pistons, rings, bores, cylinder head etc. it was just that the battery did not have enough juice in it to turn the engine for long enough to start it.

We brought home leaving him with the comment that if it does not start in the morning we would be back. Next day started just fine gave it a run out and apart from pulling to the right drove like a dream, engine runs sweet as a nut. Took it to the tyre place had it all tracked and balanced so no more pulling to the right. They did, however, say that the shock absorbers would probably be the next thing that would need replacing but nothing to worry just yet. Mmmmm more expense but not yet. It got through the MOT last September and has not done many miles since then.

Let her stand for a day without starting and started up today again with no problem. When cold turns over quite a bit before firing up but when warm starts immediately.

Right for all you cynics out there, yes we probably were ripped off by having the engine flushed out but the mechanic said that it probably will make the engine more efficient and economical on fuel. The jury is still out on that one and we shall see.

Perhaps the fuel injector kit was unnecessary at this time but on the upside it is something less to worry about for the future.

I made the overhead cab bed up yesterday, and now on my to buy list is 2 sleeping bags, I do not intend to go up and down the ladder like a monkey everytime it needs changing. Too fat and too old!! Though I did find it very comfortable during my resting periods.

I am now brimming with excitement and can't wait to set off back to the UK in the middle of March!!

Thanks to all of you who contributed to this thread with your valued experience and knowledge.

Next thing on the agenda is checking out the fridge, hot water, heating etc etc. If we come up against more problem or should I say when, there will be a new thread appearing seeking help. :thumb::thumb::thumb:

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spannermanwigan

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Wait till the weather improves before setting off for Uk then the breakdowns may not seem as painfull.

Wishing you the best of luck.
Regards
Steve:winky:
 
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Not long enough!
Glad to see she seems to be behaving now (the motorhome) and hope to see you on your travels :thumb:

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If the mechanic did a leak back test on the injectors and they were leaking back excessively then they needed doing.

Flushing the engine was a good idea on an older vehicle and worth doing.

Changing the radiator because of damaged fins was a waste of money if it A, was not leaking or B, not over heating.
 
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treasuredgiftsuk

treasuredgiftsuk

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If the mechanic did a leak back test on the injectors and they were leaking back excessively then they needed doing.

Flushing the engine was a good idea on an older vehicle and worth doing.

Changing the radiator because of damaged fins was a waste of money if it A, was not leaking or B, not over heating.

Thank you for your positive comment. We did have a diesel leak and that is why he changed them I believe.

Thank you for reassuring us regards the flushing of engine.

Don't know about the radiator as we have not yet had it on a long journey but it was pretty rough looking to be honest and it will be one thing less to worry about in the future. The mechanic said it was in such a bad state that it probably would overheat on the long journey back from Portugal to the UK.:thumb:
 
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jhorsf

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I can tell by your posts you are a little happier now lesley you were getting a little humour bypass earlier:ROFLMAO:.
Two things you can be sure of on here
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but its all meant in a nice friendly way:thumb:


Your battery has probably been to small for your van (in capacity not physical size) since you owned it.the bigger new battery is the way to go it will not cause any problems being a larger cca.
My dad had a triumph 2000 many years, it always started in cold weather but turned over quite slowly.everything checked out ok always, battery tested ok plugs points timing leads etc.
when the battery got rather old and had to be replaced we found out the wrong capacity battery had been fitted by the previous owner.With the new battery of a larger capacity the car started instantly and turned over much faster that had been the slow starting in the cold problem for years.
I wonder if that is what has happened to your van?
 
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