"A" Frames and Spain (1 Viewer)

[Larrynwin]

There is a large article in the ARVE magazine this month and as far as Europe Advice ( ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/index_en.htm ) is concerned based on information from the Dept of Transport the use of A Frames in the UK is strictly legal and that their use in other EU states should not be restricted. This follows a driver being stopped while using an A Frame in Hungary and then taking the matter up with EU Advice.
Their reply refers throughout to DFT and EU legislation.

Larry

You take your choice

 

[johnp10]

Larry, Cant get beyond the home page using the address in your post.
Any specific link please?

 

[Larrynwin]

Larry, Cant get beyond the home page using the address in your post.
Any specific link please?

If you mean the EU Advice website, not tried it. The guy in question E Mailed Europe Advice and received a very full answer including several links to dft.gov and europa.eu
I do not think I should copy and paste the article as ARVE may not agree, but I will look and see if I can get info from the links included and pass on .
It was a definate OK to legality in the UK and should be supported by EU countries.

Regards Larry

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[vwalan]

there is no law that says you cant make anything into a trailer. i do it all the time. i also get involved in building mini artics . vosa have got facilities to test aframes . they just dont . i was speaking to the mot arm in swansea only a few weeks ago. they arent pulling lots of things off the road as there isnt enough body bags to uphold the reasons.
i regularly break in to the braking systems of vehicles .to fit the hydraulic to air actuators needed to work the air brakes on the trailers. vosa have pics of mine and seem to like it. there is no test for mine . no individual test or anything.
my unit was a tipper truck. i built the artic out of it.
quite recently another rvoc member as built an artic from an iveco daily tipper.
i know it doesnt quite fit the aframe bit but does fit the comments on brakes.
there as been courts that have given back fines in spain. the piece scotjim put on also refers to the eec regs just alittle bit under where its marked in the yellow.
i dont at present use one in spain but if i did i would need to be prepared to go the whole way. but i wouldnt win if it had the conventional brakeing system on uk aframes.

 

[darklord]

Just because people do something, does not make it legal.
Just because a law is not enforced does not make it legal.
New laws are being brought out all the time to try and "discourage" home brew work on vehicles, the Spanish I beleive, are even against the new width for caravans that has been agreed by the rest of the EU, maybe killing off toads will be a trade off for them?

My dislike of toads is based on two things, one, ten years on professional recovery where they were designed to be used to take a casulalty vehicle from a breakdown to a place of safety. Two, as people in the landrover fraternity will tell you, no matter who tells you what, or how legal you think something is.....in the case of an accident, the authorities tear a vehcile to pieces, and people go to prison.
Thinking that an A-Frame is around £450 to £500, and assuming it does not set fire to your toad before you get home, would,nt you REALLY like to use soemthing that is,nt going to give you sleepless nights, and foreign coppers free nights out in resturaunts at your expense. I am still trying to get my head around the thinking that spends ten/twenty/thirty thoiusand pounds on a MH, then skimps and gambles with the law with a couple of bits of box section pulling a car along

 

[johnp10]

Just because people do something, does not make it legal.
Just because a law is not enforced does not make it legal.
New laws are being brought out all the time to try and "discourage" home brew work on vehicles, the Spanish I beleive, are even against the new width for caravans that has been agreed by the rest of the EU, maybe killing off toads will be a trade off for them?

My dislike of toads is based on two things, one, ten years on professional recovery where they were designed to be used to take a casulalty vehicle from a breakdown to a place of safety. Two, as people in the landrover fraternity will tell you, no matter who tells you what, or how legal you think something is.....in the case of an accident, the authorities tear a vehcile to pieces, and people go to prison.
Thinking that an A-Frame is around £450 to £500, and assuming it does not set fire to your toad before you get home, would,nt you REALLY like to use soemthing that is,nt going to give you sleepless nights, and foreign coppers free nights out in resturaunts at your expense. [HI]I am still trying to get my head around the thinking that spends ten/twenty/thirty thoiusand pounds on a MH, then skimps and gambles with the law with a couple of bits of box section pulling a car along:[/HI]Eeek:

The voice of sanity is not dead!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Geo]

Just because people do something, does not make it legal.
Just because a law is not enforced does not make it legal.
New laws are being brought out all the time to try and "discourage" home brew work on vehicles, the Spanish I beleive, are even against the new width for caravans that has been agreed by the rest of the EU, maybe killing off toads will be a trade off for them?

My dislike of toads is based on two things, one, ten years on professional recovery where they were designed to be used to take a casulalty vehicle from a breakdown to a place of safety. Two, as people in the landrover fraternity will tell you, no matter who tells you what, or how legal you think something is.....in the case of an accident, the authorities tear a vehcile to pieces, and people go to prison.
Thinking that an A-Frame is around £450 to £500, and assuming it does not set fire to your toad before you get home, would,nt you REALLY like to use soemthing that is,nt going to give you sleepless nights, and foreign coppers free nights out in resturaunts at your expense. I am still trying to get my head around the thinking that spends ten/twenty/thirty thoiusand pounds on a MH, then skimps and gambles with the law with a couple of bits of box section pulling a car along

Sleepless nights,Fire, tearing my vehicle apart,
flimsy box section
OMG where can I buy a trailer today,right now-----HELP!!!!!!
For Sale Death trap A frame --Offers

 

[Jaws]

Just because people do something, does not make it legal.
Just because a law is not enforced does not make it legal.
cut

cut
My dislike of toads is based on two things,
cut

And Darklord, you do not think perchance the above two bits of text sum up your attitude and reasoning ?
Are you perhaps letting your own bias cloud your argument ( I am not for one minute saying your beliefs and experiences are any less valid than those of others )


I have absolutely no axe to grind other than I personally do not have an A frame but equally I might use one if the need arose providing I personally was happy with its mechanical strength ( in other words I would make my own mind up based on my own view of the situation and 'kit' at the time )

 

[scotjimland]

snip

New laws are being brought out all the time to try and "discourage" home brew work on vehicles,

snip

No one wants to see illegal or unsafe vehicles on the roads.. that's just common sense..

but more and more regulations will stifle the great British entrepreneurial spirit and the back yard inventor will just roll over.. .. if the H&S exec had anything to do with it back in the 19th century we would still be driving horse and carts and never have taken to the air ..

If A frames are so dangerous, why have there (to my knowledge) not been any serious accidents caused by toads breaking free?

Back to the OP.. yes, they are illegal in Spain .. but as has already been posted, VOSA say they are legal if they conform to trailer C&U regs ..

Frankly I can't understand why those who, for whatever reason, keep banging the drum saying they are unsafe and illegal in the UK when they are not.

Provide the proof and I'll be the first in line to bang the drum..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[johnp10]

Back to the OP.. yes, they are illegal in Spain .. but as has already been posted, VOSA say they are legal if they conform to trailer C&U regs ..

Frankly I can't understand why those who, for whatever reason, keep banging the drum saying they are unsafe and illegal in the UK when they are not.

Provide the proof and I'll be the first in line to bang the drum..

It's not about drums, its about not wishing to see folk come to grief needlessly.
Provide proof they are legal and safe, Jim, and I'll have one.
I'm talking proof, not selective screeds of googled discussion documents full of conjecture rather than fact, which can say anything an intelligent reader wants them to.
Legality cannot be proven by this means.
The only definitive answer to this particular debate lies in someone taking proper legal advice or a test case going through the courts.
There is much talk on here about VOSA not checking / enforcing rules regarding toads solely due to "lack of body bags".
Absolute nonsense!
VOSA as an organisation is cash strapped, and as such cant afford to check everything.
FACT.
It's no different to HSE not going round checking FLT drivers' authorisations, but as soon as an accident occurs training records are the first thing asked for.
It will only take a single bad accident involving a toad device to open the can of worms fully.
In other words, just one body bag will do it.

I'm not against toad devices per se, but I am anti mickey mouse attitudes of folk who think they know better than everyone else, and the law should not therefore apply to them.
Do it, but do it right.

Is anyone so sure and has anyone got the nuts to ask for a test case?
Doubt it. It's so much nicer with your head in the sand.

 

[darklord]

I,m not going to stretch this thread out any further than this, but feel that Ive got to explain my position. My "appreticership" with motors, was done in the days of customising, we did things to motors that are now part of their design. Many a time I ended up in court, imuch of the road traffic law and certainly the C&U regs had never been tested, and now they were getting a thorough work out by enthusiast's. Without going into chapter and verse, just because you are told that something is legal, or that its use etc has become custom and practise, that may not stand up in a court, in on einstance, neither the police, or the court could decide whether a bias belted tyre was a crossply or radial , and had to adjourn and take advice. On another occasion, although the advert produced in court, a letter from the manufacturers of an item, said that it was legal on pre 1973 cars, I was prosecuted because the way i used it..it was not

When i got involved in landrovers some years later, I saw all of the modification etc that went on with those vehciles, and the "manouvering" around various laws, then unfortunatly, something happened that and the resultant investigation had a very bad outcome for all concerned, and beleive me, you would not want even a new car sujected to that level of investigation.
I would not want to see any MH owner subject to such scrutiny or be suject of such an investigation that would possibly have a bad outcome for them, but a good one for the law and their insurance company!
We will all do what we want, based on our beliefs and the information that we have in front of us,...myself, even though i could make my own A frame, and tow it with confidence ( HGV driver)...I,ll stick to a traler.......and i,ll not fall out with the "toad lovers" while doing it:thumb:

 

[Squire]

..... snip ..... I am still trying to get my head around the thinking that spends ten/twenty/thirty thoiusand pounds on a MH, then skimps and gambles with the law with a couple of bits of box section pulling a car along

I don't think that that's quite fair, darklord. I use neither an A-frame nor a trailer, so am unbiased, but I have never thought that A-frame users are 'skimps' and as for as A-frames being nothing more than 'a couple of bits of box section pulling a car along' is concerned, what is the difference to that and to a caravan chassis A-frame? I think most A-frame users do so because of the convenience, not to save money over the cost of a trailer, and I dare say that a car being towed on an A-frame and having a wheel at each corner is inheritently more stable than a standard trailer. At least, I've never seen a car on an A-frame snaking ....

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[johnp10]

I don't think that that's quite fair, darklord. I use neither an A-frame nor a trailer, so am unbiased, but I have never thought that A-frame users are 'skimps' and as for as A-frames being nothing more than 'a couple of bits of box section pulling a car along' is concerned, what is the difference to that and to a caravan chassis A-frame? I think most A-frame users do so because of the convenience, not to save money over the cost of a trailer, and I dare say that a car being towed on an A-frame and having a wheel at each corner is inheritently more stable than a standard trailer. At least, I've never seen a car on an A-frame snaking ....

OBJECTION, M'LUD!!
Supposition, not fact.

This has gone full circle
Can we talk about filling gas bottles, please? or Wale's chance of RWC win
Or is ShiftZZ Chewbacca's love child?

 

[Geoffers]

OBJECTION, M'LUD!!
Supposition, not fact.

This has gone full circle
Can we talk about filling gas bottles, please? or Wale's chance of RWC win
Or is ShiftZZ Chewbacca's love child?

You missed out Fray Bentos

 

[nomadic]

Well, I only wanted to alert anyone travelling through Spain, what the current thinking is, and the potential risk now involved.

Bryan has confirmed its happening.

Will we now see the local plod, sat at a desk, at port or road border crossing, with a sign, "get your "A" frame permit here".....could save them some fuel and time!!!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[johnp10]

Well, I only wanted to alert anyone travelling through Spain, what the current thinking is, and the potential risk now involved.

Bryan has confirmed its happening.

Will we now see the local plod, sat at a desk, at port or road border crossing, with a sign, "get your "A" frame permit here".....could save them some fuel and time!!!

We appreciate your intention and thanks for the info.
Toad threads are like gassing and gas cylinder threads, they bring so much crud out of the woodwork.

 

[beachcaster]

Putting the law to one side.......it has to be safer to tow a car with 4 wheels on the ground.Ive never liked 2 wheel trailers.

I hope any new legislation sorts out this mess. The joys of belonging to europe where we all obey the same laws.

barry

 

[hdvrod]

http://www.phoenixtrailer.co.uk/NewTrailer3.php
I got my bike trailer from these guys.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[slobadoberbob]

yes agree, we have done this subject to death (AGAIN)

OBJECTION, M'LUD!!
Supposition, not fact.

This has gone full circle
Can we talk about filling gas bottles, please? or Wale's chance of RWC win
Or is ShiftZZ Chewbacca's love child?

fully agree we have done this subject to death yet again.... becoming boring...

Bob aka m'lud, smartarse, and a few other not so printable names given to me in the last 3 years on this site.:Blush:

 

[slobadoberbob]

even FB pies are better to discuss

You missed out Fray Bentos

Trouble is once you mention those words JJ will pop out of the magic hat.. just like that......

Bob:Blush:

 

[beachcaster]

British consulate in madrid says A frames illegal

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars


Well thats it then !

barry:Sad:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[johnp10]

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars


Well thats it then !

barry:Sad:

Hopefully.:thumb:

 

[vwalan]

hi at the time i bought my intertrade aframe the AAandRAC werte using them . i,m not 100%certain if the still do but intertrade are possibly the biggest recovery supply folk in the uk . i also use an intertrade tow pole .and have an harvey frost towboy here . i like the towboy . i now carry a very sturdy twin box towpole used for truck recovery . i,m all for aframes . but as i have said before mine is without brakes as i only used it for recovery . i dont like many of the newer type with over run brakes as i know the brakes work in forward motion but should come on if used in reverse .as trailers have auto reverse shoes this doesnt happen with them . but the eu rules are there for us to use and as far as i can understand uk allows them so in theory spain should . we can forget consulates giveing out statements as they are very ignorant of the rules usually . and in this case there as been fines returned by spanish courts when folk appeal.

 

[beachcaster]

Perhaps we need a brave soul to take on the Spanish Government.
Volunteers please..........then Jim can organise a whip round to pay the legals

Any names come to mind?

barry

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[vwalan]

you should find that in july of 97 a uk person got his fine returned for an offence on 22 11 96 of towing a car behind a m,home . this could set a precident and was issued by the ministry of the interiour provincial head quarters in girona signed by robert brell parlade i believe he was the goverment under-deputy at the time.
this may need further checking but plays part of the reason aframe sellers believe you can tow in spain . but unless folk appeal and keep paying the fines but talk in the pub it wont get better .
it seems a graham watson was an mep at the time .further deatils used to be available on the caratow web site . might be worth having a look .

 

[Wildman]

I have a recovery aframe and use it for moving vehicles around on the smallholding the whole thing is much much stronger that the tow bar on the caravan so don't see that argument not getting into the brakes and reversing argument though.

 

[Jaws]

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars


Well thats it then !

barry:Sad:

Um.....
Did you read the very first lines of text on the page Barry ?

Here ya go mate:

Please note that the following information is provided as a guide only. Definitive information should be obtained from the Spanish authorities.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[vwalan]

its also just for brits living in spain not for touring . shame loads cant read . glad i never passed my 11 plus.
like most things its only to give you fear . frightened folk panic all the time .