VOSA Fact or Fiction (1 Viewer)

[Geo]

This report was posted on an Auto sport face book page as a warning to its members
that Vosa had pulled a tag axle Kontiki with a Smart Car on a Trailer
The member is personally known to me
He says he is plated at 5000kg train weight and weighed in at 6007 Kg all in
the result of the check was 1007 KG overweight

I have no reason to disbelive him BUT can someone with this type of motor home confirm that the quoted figures are about right, they seem high to me
He was let off with a warning and given a producer for his documents
following this post another message from another well respected member ie the club Chairman stated.

I have it on good authority that "Operation Overweight" starts on May 1st targeting WEEKEND "Leisure Users" ..in particular people towing horseboxes and trailers !!. Trailer towing rules and regs' are a minefield and I would think it time well spent in making sure if you're towing you're fully aware of the requirements . Also be aware that the more weight you add to your towing vehicle ( food, beer ect ect) the less you can legally tow !!! GVW - GTW


Fact or Fiction Folks I dont know:Sad:
Geo

 

[SomeoneElse]

No specific info, but my Bailey Approach is plated at 3500kg max weight but with a train limit of 5500kg.
I would expect the Kontiki to be over 3500kg to start with so a 5000kg train limit wouldn't leave much for a trailer.

Gordon

 

[Forestboy]

Although not a Swift my Hymer is similar configuration tag axle.
Gross Weight 5000kgs
Train Weight 5250kgs
That's the reason we don't tow, tags have massive payloads because of the extra axle but it comes off the Train Weight. When I see tags towing I always wonder how they get away with it obviously they don't they are just waiting to get caught. We carry a motorcycle in the garage as our payload is nearly 1500kgs and we're never more than 4500kgs and we check weigh regularly.
The only way for us to tow legally would be to run the van virtually empty to keep us under weight I suppose but that's not a realistic option for us Jan even takes her sewing machine.

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[flatpackchicken]

Hi Geo, Well first of all I would imagine the kontiki would have a gvw of about 5000kgs and maybe a gtw of about 7000kgs.
It sounds to me as though he may have overloaded his m/h up to 6001kg that's why he got done as over the 5000kg limit?????
Secondly statement by the club chairman is misleading, as don't matter what you put in the towing vehicle/trailer as it is the gvw that is stamped into the chassis that is what counts as the gvw not what the vehicle/trailer weights, ie gvw of m/h say 5000kg + gvw of trailer 2000kg = gtw 7000kg, hope I have explained this ok. Regards Garry Flatpackchicken

 

[2657]

They let him off with a 20% overload!!!

Cost me £600 20 years ago for an 11% overload on the front axle of a 7.5 tonner.:Angry:

 

[Forestboy]

If you look at Kontiki specs some are 5000kgs gross and 6000kgs train wt so he may well have only been a few kgs over hence the warning.
We got done £400 for 100kgs over on the rear axle on a 7.5 tonnes

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[Geo]

Having looked into it more, it seems VOSA have a tolerance of up to 5% but anything over a Ton overweight gets a ticket even if that ton only equates to say 3%
So its seems he got caught on a good day
Any one else heard of "Operation Overweight"
G

 

[Peter JohnsCross MH]

Alko 5000Kg Low Line Chassis
835Kg Payload

Thats on a 2007 Kontiki 669

Peter

 

[phil1946]

From memory our Hymer 694 (tag axle) was plated at 4,800 GVW and 5,500 GTW. That was why (when realised) we stopped TOADing and towed the 750Kg box trailer with scooter inside with other bits and bobs.

The TREK is 6,713 GVW with 9,072 GTW (limited in practice to 8,250 by extension 107 on licence) and the TOAD has a GVW of 1,460.

I believe I am legal at an actual Train Weight of (6,713 plus 1,460) 8,173Kg.

Anyone know otherwise?

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[flatpackchicken]

From memory our Hymer 694 (tag axle) was plated at 4,800 GVW and 5,500 GTW. That was why (when realised) we stopped TOADing and towed the 750Kg box trailer with scooter inside with other bits and bobs.

The TREK is 6,713 GVW with 9,072 GTW (limited in practice to 8,250 by extension 107 on licence) and the TOAD has a GVW of 1,460.

I believe I am legal at an actual Train Weight of (6,713 plus 1,460) 8,173Kg.

Anyone know otherwise?

Nope sounds ok to me Regards Garry Flatpackchicken

 

[Snowbird]

I looked at several tag axles before buying the RMB which is built on the Merc 410D chassis with a gross weight 4600Kg (5.075 tons) Max train weight 5900Kg (6.5 ton) with twin rear wheels, as I wanted to tow a trailer with my Smart car on it. Most if not all tag axles are built on the Alco chassis which as far as I know is not designed for towing heavy trailers. Some are impossible to get a towbar for. So the OP does not surprise me in the slightest.

 

[maz]

My tag on an Al-Ko chassis has a gross weight of 5000kg (I run at around 4550kg fully laden) with a gross train weight of 6000kg. I don't drag a toad but I could if I wanted to.

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[knokinonabit]

This is the part of the vehicle conformity specs from AutoTrail.
As you can see, I can go to 5 tonne with the MH and tow up to 1 tonne.
So even a Smart car on a trailer specifically made for it (light weight etc.) would be to heavy to tow.

 

[Trikeman]

Hi, I don't know if this could help some Funsters. From past experience a great deal of confusion has been seen as regards weights/plates and the understanding of - not wishing to upset the knowledgeable, but it may help someone.

Here is the main manufacturers plate on my Autotrail Apache 700SE.



We are predominantly looking at weights, so ignore the top sets of figures which are vehicle specific info like the Vehicle Identification Number.

Here are the weights in descending order.
3500kg - This is the gross vehicle weight (the weight of the whole vehicle, including everything in/on it which must not be exceeded).

5500kg - This is the train weight (the maximum weight of the vehicle including everything in/on it and the weight of the trailer/toad with everything in/on it).

1850kg - (1) This is the FRONT axle weight (which must not be exceeded when weighed individually with everything in/on the vehicle).

2120kg - (2) This is the REAR axle weight (which must not be exceeded when weighed individually with everything in/on the vehicle).

Some can go really wrong when weighing their vehicles, as using just the axle weights CAN get them into trouble, as still the GVW must not be exceeded. If one adds front and rear axle maximum weights together that adds up to 3970kg but you must not, in this case, exceed the 3500kg GVW.

To calculate the weight of anything being towed (to ensure they don't exceed the GTW Train Weight) in this (above) case the trailer/toad could be up to 2000kg on its own, bearing in mind that is everything, including the toad's A frame. Something to also be aware of is the toad's A frame or trailer's downward 'hitch' weight - which does affect rear axle loading too (need to be careful there) you could be within the train weight but the load imposed by the trailer/toad could put the rear axle over it's maximum weight.

Although I have used the photo of my manufacturers plate to help, my particular MoHo has a re-designated GVW of 3850kg and can legally run at that (additional plate by the side of the above)....... HOWEVER, the sting on this plate states, as long as the axle weights are not exceeded. So it's not ONLY weight, it's where it is on the vehicle too.

What a bloody minefield, aye?

I hope I haven't bored the knowledgeable and sincerely hope it has helped anyone struggling to understand their weights and plate information.

Regards,

Trikeman.

 

[Trikeman]

I too was in the market for a tag axle Autotrail (or similar) at the time I bought my current non-tag Autotrail and my main reason for not getting one was the very low train weight on some. Our intension was always to take the car with us and just about every tag axle we looked at just wouldn't legally tow a car, trailered or toaded.

Having said that, the M5 is plastered in tag axles with cars on trailers/toads this afternoon merrily bombing their way down South.


Trikeman.

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[pappajohn]

train weigh can be altered at manufacture.

our last kontiki was 3850kg but registered as 3500kg and a train of 5500kg


when i had the weight changed to 3850kg, an increase of 350kg, i got a cert of conformity from Alko and the train had been reduced by Alko to 5150kg....a reduction of 350kg but overall no change....gross up 350kg and train down 350kg.

saying that, as it already had an Alko vin stating 3850 (just wrongly registered) and a train of 5500kg so i never fitted the new vin plate and it stayed at 5500kg anyway.

 

[pappajohn]

This is the part of the vehicle conformity specs from AutoTrail.
As you can see, I can go to 5 tonne with the MH and tow up to 1 tonne.
So even a Smart car on a trailer specifically made for it (light weight etc.) would be to heavy to tow.

and looking at the cert you technically cant tow a car on an A frame either....even if you could find one light enough.

specifically no weight allowance for a drawbar trailer, which a car is when towed.

axles at front and rear rather than centred.

 

[aba]

I have only seen a couple of large motorhomes capable of legally towing anything much bigger than a smart car and those are based on the iveco 6.5 ton chassis with a plated train weight of 9000kg.

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[knokinonabit]

and looking at the cert you technically cant tow a car on an A frame either....even if you could find one light enough.

specifically no weight allowance for a drawbar trailer, which a car is when towed.

axles at front and rear rather than centred.

I agree with you on that. :thumb:

 

[2657]

and looking at the cert you technically cant tow a car on an A frame either....even if you could find one light enough.

[HI]specifically no weight allowance for a drawbar trailer,[/HI] which a car is when towed.

axles at front and rear rather than centred.

Does that make a difference, as far as I am aware train weight is train weight?

I have never seen a plate with anything but gross, axle and train weights.

 

[TheDogMan]

I have only seen a couple of large motorhomes capable of legally towing anything much bigger than a smart car and those are based on the iveco 6.5 ton chassis with a plated train weight of 9000kg.

Not quite, my Hobby has an Iveco 50c18 chassis, gross weight 5.2ton train weight 8.25 ton which is the maximum train weight allowed on my licence, Iveco do a 6 & 7 ton chassis but the train weight stays the same or thats what RS have them plated at. I have been towing a TA trailer with a kangoo estate on.

I got pulled a few years ago on the M6 in a 3.5t sprinter, for small individual owners the police said under 10% was fixed penalty over that in court, companies over 5% = in court, I was12.5% over weight and they gave me a £30 fixed penalty which was no points on my licence and made me drive back home under threat at no more than 40mph to unload some weight.

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[TheDogMan]

Does that make a difference, as far as I am aware train weight is train weight?

I have never seen a plate with anything but gross, axle and train weights.

Train weight is what it says total of towing vehicle & loaded trailer, some of the chassis extentions are not man enough to take a big weight

 

[Allanm]

Train weight on ours is 6000kg. But the van isn't designed to have a tow bar fitted!

 

[pappajohn]

Does that make a difference, as far as I am aware train weight is train weight?

I have never seen a plate with anything but gross, axle and train weights.

Problem is the plate specifies 'no figures' for a drawbar trailer....only a regular centre axle trailer, so if the nice man from Vosa wants to get picky it would be an offence.

must admit i've never seen a plate before with that info on.

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[pappajohn]

I looked at several tag axles before buying the RMB which is built on the Merc 410D chassis with a gross weight 4600Kg (5.075 tons) Max train weight 5900Kg (6.5 ton) with twin rear wheels, as I wanted to tow a trailer with my Smart car on it. Most if not all tag axles are built on the Alco chassis which as far as I know is not designed for towing heavy trailers. Some are impossible to get a towbar for. So the OP does not surprise me in the slightest.

where did you get those figures Dave.......they are American short tons

4600kg is actually 4.527 UK tons....see the screengrab below

 

[Snowbird]

where did you get those figures Dave.......they are American short tons

4600kg is actually 4.527 UK tons....see the screengrab below

You stick with your tons and I will stick with mine, as mine are more favourable to me .
A classic case of making whatever you want meet your requirements at the time :thumb:

 

[2657]

I know what train weight is, I have been driving and running trucks for over 40 years and I have never heard of any mention of different train weights for different types of trailers, but I stand to be corrected.

I also know the difference between semi trailers, close coupled trailers, single axle trailers and draw bar trailers and how they impose(or don't) loads onto the towing vehicle.

The only restriction within the train weight limit,that I know of would be the rating of the hitch.

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[Rapide561]

GTW

Gross train weight of Kontiki tags that I have owned, ranging from the early 2007 one to the present 2013, is 6000kg gross train weight.

5000kg is the maximum for the solo motorhome.

I have never been pulled over but I did once pull myself over to a VOSA place where weighing was taking place. The staff were surprised but helpful and weighed my as per my wishes.

Russ

 

[pappajohn]

I know what train weight is, I have been driving and running trucks for over 40 years and[HI] I have never heard of any mention of different train weights for different types of trailers,[/HI] but I stand to be corrected.

I also know the difference between semi trailers, close coupled trailers, single axle trailers and draw bar trailers and how they impose(or don't) loads onto the towing vehicle.

The only restriction within the train weight limit,that I know of would be the rating of the hitch.

Not doubting you for one moment and as i said, i havent come across that before.

BUT, if the plate states no drawbar trailers then it means no drawbar trailers in the same way i have no plated train weight yet the RV is capable of pulling around 3 tons in America. America has a different way of calculating train weight and no two vehicles will technically be the same.
because there is no plated train weight i cant tow diddlysquat

 

[pappajohn]

You stick with your tons and I will stick with mine, as mine are more favourable to me .
A classic case of making whatever you want meet your requirements at the time :thumb:

agreed Dave, your advantage.......but will VOSA use the same weights, no.....they will use metric so its 4.6 metric tonnes.

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