Herpetology (1 Viewer)

Fireman Sam

Free Member
Sep 8, 2012
1,421
2,513
Bushey
Funster No
22,812
MH
Class C
Exp
Only since 2012, but I towed for many years
I’m considering the viability of acquiring a TOAD as an additional car. My existing car is far too big (Volvo 850 T5) to be pulled behind the MH. Problem is that I Have very little spare drive space to accommodate the proposed Toad. A Smart would fit, but occasionally we would need four seats. Any suggestion for small slim cars that might be suitable?

My other dilemma is my concerns re' the on-going debate on Fun about the future legality of Toads here and abroad. All your wise thoughts and suggestions, as always, will be much appreciated.

Mike (AKA Sam)
 
Dec 6, 2011
11,470
25,061
South Wales
Funster No
19,136
MH
Coach built Adria
Exp
Since 2007
i recently did an exercise for myself on the cost feasibility of a TOAD; :Blush:

this is where i ended up:-

TOAD ( reasonable smart car ) £3000
tow bar and electrics for van £750
A Frame costs £1000

total so far £4750...

now without considering,

TOAD depreciation, slight reduction in fuel economy on van, extra ferry costs, Tx, mot, insurance on TOAD, tyres maintenance all of which are ongoing..... and annual cost extra to initial outlay.

avarage cost of a small hire car in France during off seasons.. £22 - £30 / day depends where and when and includes DW.

Outlay £4750, so thats a minimum of 158 days i could hire a car in France for the same outlay without counting annual costs.
to me thats around 5 - 6 years worth of car hire assuming 30 days a year over a period of 60 days a year across the water.


i like the thought of having a TOAD but dont think it viable for me... but each to our own:thumb:
maybe i'm tooooo skingy and mean....:Eeek:
 
Dec 28, 2011
2,426
2,769
Stokesley, North Yorks
Funster No
19,259
MH
JoaCamp75Q by Pilote
Exp
Still learning since 2010
Clever thread title :thumb:
I had to look it up :Blush:

Buy a trailer to be on the safe side.
Any small four seater would then do, the choice of car would be up to your personal preference then.
You are really restricted by the towing capacity of your MH, so do your homework on trailer and car kerb weights.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Apr 18, 2013
119
182
Nuthampstead
Funster No
25,596
MH
Rv
Exp
since 2013
We had the same problem. We have an Insignia estate, far too big.
I have just bought a Fiat Panda, on an 07 plate. We went for the 100hp one, which is actually really fun to drive, and now the Insignia gets left on the drive, unless the all three children want to come out with us (which is pretty much never).
Pretty good on fuel, over 40 mpg, cheap insurance £200.
Not sorted the a-frame yet, but i`m looking at this type of system http://www.unibrake.co.uk/
 
Feb 22, 2008
12,258
44,933
Norfolk
Funster No
1,575
MH
Nearly Tugging
Exp
Since 2004
We have a Peugeot 107 5door with car a tow a frame , small economical and nippy, same as Toyota Aygo and Citroen C1 :thumb: much better than the restrictive Smart car .
 
Feb 22, 2008
12,258
44,933
Norfolk
Funster No
1,575
MH
Nearly Tugging
Exp
Since 2004
BTW, thought this thread was about STDs :Eeek:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

estcres

Free Member
Oct 9, 2007
1,300
767
Sunny Bournemouth
Funster No
582
MH
coachbuilt
Exp
since 2005
We looked at towing about a year ago and decided it wasn't for us.

We looked at a Toyota Aygo (840Kg) and a Smart Trailer (275Kg) as a suitable setup.

Decided to go down the road of hiring a car when we need one.
 
OP
OP
Fireman Sam

Fireman Sam

Free Member
Sep 8, 2012
1,421
2,513
Bushey
Funster No
22,812
MH
Class C
Exp
Only since 2012, but I towed for many years
Thank you all for this helpful info’. I think that I will be looking at the narrowest four seaters available.
Trouble is, all fairly modern cars seem to be so much wider than I can accommodate.

All suggestions gratefully received.

Mike

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Dec 6, 2011
11,470
25,061
South Wales
Funster No
19,136
MH
Coach built Adria
Exp
Since 2007
Had an Aygo a while back, tiny outside big inside, like a mini tardis :ROFLMAO:

just watch the rear lights leak rain water like a preverbial sive on these earlier models:Sad:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

hilldweller

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2008
605
36,108
Macclesfield
Funster No
5,089
MH
Zilch Mk1
Exp
From Aug 2007
I’m considering the viability of acquiring a TOAD as an additional car.

It's a crazy idea - you need on site transport - you propose to tow this, possibly illegally - you pay two lots of wear and tare, tax and insurance.

You need a caravan. One lot of tax and insurance. Huge space for little money.
 
Apr 18, 2013
119
182
Nuthampstead
Funster No
25,596
MH
Rv
Exp
since 2013
It's a crazy idea - you need on site transport - you propose to tow this, possibly illegally - you pay two lots of wear and tare, tax and insurance.

You need a caravan. One lot of tax and insurance. Huge space for little money.

Maybe not. For me, we have a fairly large family car, which is not that great on mpg. We seem to have the three children with us, less and less, these days.
The op has a Volvo t5, also not great for mpg I would assume.
If a small, lightweight car, which could have free or £30 road fund, be very cheap to insure, and run could be bought, it might be cheaper than running a big heavy uneconomical car around all the time.
Plus, you get to take it away with you.
 

hilldweller

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2008
605
36,108
Macclesfield
Funster No
5,089
MH
Zilch Mk1
Exp
From Aug 2007
it might be cheaper than running a big heavy uneconomical car around all the time..

A very valid point.

However, cars that can tow a caravan can be surprisingly economical these days.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

old-mo

Funster
Extra Special
LIFE MEMBER
Oct 16, 2008
16,341
93,473
Weymouth. Dorset...
Funster No
4,470
MH
Nearly aint got one.
Exp
Caravan & motorhome 45 + yrs
We were toying with the idea of doing away with the "Toad" and "A" Frame and Trailer...

And going down the route of hiring,,,, but thought if we only want to stop in one place en-route to Spain - Portugal - or Italy or where ever......... Could be a problem/hastle getting one for just a day or two..

So decided to keep as we are.... that way we have it with us what ever...

And as with us a few years ago.... we had to get back to the UK in a hurry, and didn't` want to drag the rig back, and couldn`t get a flight for love nor money.. so ended up driving back in the Toad,, and then driving back to Spain to carry on our trip... :Smile:
 

Trikeman

Free Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,649
3,095
Wilds of Ceredigion.
Funster No
22,516
MH
AT 634 Apache.
Exp
Since 2011.
Now just the Wife, the dog and myself, did the hiring thing but what a nightmare. Sometimes it took an age to find the hire car companies, and then to get it back - some didn't want to deliver them to sites or pick them up, 'you want to carry a dog' :whatthe: so we decided the Wife's car needed changing - we bought this..... does both jobs now.

.

I agree that these 'little' Peugeot 107's (or the Ayego or C1 - same car - ish) are mini tardis's,,,,, we cann get everything we need in and it tows superb, just don't forget it's there :roflmto: If you have a rear window get a fresnell lens and you can keep your eye on it.
£79 insurance (had to go direct as most of the brokers said "not worth giving you a quote as there's nothing in it for us") £20 12 months tax and around 60 to the gallon.......:thumb:

Go for it.

Trikeman. :winky:
 
Last edited:

lee52

Free Member
Oct 13, 2013
327
119
tyne and wear
Funster No
28,546
MH
selfbuild
Exp
newbie
Ive been thinking about this as well my car is a vec vxr and have no intentions of changing it for a smaller car, cant justify buying a second car for the MH, dont want to be fitting a dedicated aframe system to my vec, so basically I cn car trailer (big n bulky ) so whats the legality on using a towdolly (braked one ) http://www.mobilestructures.com/Car Tow 05.html

and am I right in thinking the recovery type aframes would not be Legal? due to not having a brake system

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

old-mo

Funster
Extra Special
LIFE MEMBER
Oct 16, 2008
16,341
93,473
Weymouth. Dorset...
Funster No
4,470
MH
Nearly aint got one.
Exp
Caravan & motorhome 45 + yrs
Ive been thinking about this as well my car is a vec vxr and have no intentions of changing it for a smaller car, cant justify buying a second car for the MH, dont want to be fitting a dedicated aframe system to my vec, so basically I cn car trailer (big n bulky ) so whats the legality on using a towdolly (braked one ) http://www.mobilestructures.com/Car Tow 05.html

[HI]and am I right in thinking the recovery type aframes would not be Legal? due to not having a brake system
[/HI]

Only to be used by RAC & AA or breakdown company...

Car must have independent braking system... :Smile:
 

schojac

Free Member
Apr 25, 2009
339
234
Cambridgeshire
Funster No
6,433
MH
C Class
Exp
new in 2009
I have a toad; it is illegal because it does not match exactly the requirements of the road traffic act ****** done and dusted. The whole saga regarding toads is a one that has been discussed at great length before and there are always pros and cons. As with most things in life you make the decision that is best for you at that time. Allegedly, the whole issue regarding towing four wheeled vehicles will be resolved sometime in 2014. personally I would wait to see what happens at this alleged day as converting any car is not cheap.

My toad - best thing I've bought except for my Autotrail ::bigsmile:
 

hilldweller

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2008
605
36,108
Macclesfield
Funster No
5,089
MH
Zilch Mk1
Exp
From Aug 2007
I have a toad; it is illegal because it does not match exactly the requirements of the road traffic act

So does this mean you are driving uninsured ? Sounds well dodgy.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

schojac

Free Member
Apr 25, 2009
339
234
Cambridgeshire
Funster No
6,433
MH
C Class
Exp
new in 2009
I, along with many others are unable to reverse my toad without the braking system coming into effect - this basically makes it illegal - although this have never been taken to court (that I am aware of). Only the electronic baking systems comply but you still can't reverse them anyway.

Can you? I need lessons :winky:
 

My Dog Likes Fishing

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 16, 2012
379
407
Lancashire
Funster No
23,992
MH
Hymer B678
Exp
Hang on while I look at my watch
I also like the easy lifestyle that my toad gives me. Couldn't give a toss about the wear and tear of four tyres. It's convenient when I'm touring and at less than £150 to tax and insure it beats hiring a car any day.

It also gives people something to talk about on this forum on a cold winters night.

I'm Happy to oblige and give the toad batterers something to talk about every now and again!! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

old-mo

Funster
Extra Special
LIFE MEMBER
Oct 16, 2008
16,341
93,473
Weymouth. Dorset...
Funster No
4,470
MH
Nearly aint got one.
Exp
Caravan & motorhome 45 + yrs
so whats the legality with using a braked towdolly?


"Illegal".......... Unless used by RAC & AA.. or breakdown company....

If vehicle or trailer is manufactured with brakes to all wheels....and over 750 KG they must work when being towed... :Smile:

This may help..

(Quote) There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked ‘A’ frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. With car dollies, the situation is somewhat different. Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere.(Unquote)..

Next year if the law goes through, the only "Legal" "A" frame will be the electronic one that does not use cables or the Ram system.. and is electronically controlled by a unit fixed inside the car and operating the brake.... To all four wheels..

Going to be an awful lot of Cable/Ram "A" frames on E.Bay next year... ::bigsmile:

Although this is not set in stone as to if or when they will be made law... :RollEyes::Sad:
 

lee52

Free Member
Oct 13, 2013
327
119
tyne and wear
Funster No
28,546
MH
selfbuild
Exp
newbie
"Illegal".......... Unless used by RAC & AA.. or breakdown company....

If vehicle or trailer is manufactured with brakes to all wheels....and over 750 KG they must work when being towed... :Smile:

This may help..

(Quote) There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked ‘A’ frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. With car dollies, the situation is somewhat different. Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere.(Unquote)..

Next year if the law goes through, the only "Legal" "A" frame will be the electronic one that does not use cables or the Ram system.. and is electronically controlled by a unit fixed inside the car and operating the brake.... To all four wheels..

Going to be an awful lot of Cable/Ram "A" frames on E.Bay next year... ::bigsmile:

Although this is not set in stone as to if or when they will be made law... :RollEyes::Sad:

so basically I have the option of bolting some expensive ugly metal work on the front of my car or buy a car trailer :Eeek: sod it Ill make a rack to carry the motorbike

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

schojac

Free Member
Apr 25, 2009
339
234
Cambridgeshire
Funster No
6,433
MH
C Class
Exp
new in 2009
As stated in previous post fitting an A frame is quite expensive and not to be entered into lightly especially the overun braking system (which actually makes the system somewhat illegal due to reversing issues). The original post asked for opinions and in my opinion I would definately wait for the review. Fortunately I feel that I have had value for money should my system be made totally illegal, in which case I would definately consider the electronic system as long as that is accepted as being legal.
 

Trikeman

Free Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,649
3,095
Wilds of Ceredigion.
Funster No
22,516
MH
AT 634 Apache.
Exp
Since 2011.
old-mo;869424 [SIZE=3 said:
(Quote) There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked ‘A’ frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. [/SIZE]

Hi Mo, where did you get this quote from? I'm not questioning you, just the quote.:winky: I know we could (and have) waxed lyrical on this debate - but does anyone really know for sure?????? - Are the A frame manufacturers making illegal to use kit, or are they correct in their docs??? Anyway.

The information I had/have (could reveal the source in private:winky:) is that the arrangement we are on about (a car on an A frame 'trailer' with mechanical actuated overrun brakes) falls into the category of O2 (though EC71/320 is type approval directive) which it can't be seen where the toads fall foul.
However,
Looking at the 'in use' regs (as in use on the road) of our fair land (unless we are missing something quite obvious) and road categorisation of defects against the C&U regs we cannot, for the life of us, see where anything is being 'violated' by the A frame/toad is concerned, as long as it's braked efficiently etc (lets forget the MV lighting regs for a minute).

Speaking to VOSA on this and they have issued several prohibitions to MH's with toads attached, generally for un-braked A frames - nowt else to do with towing toads, in fact referring to the roads regs/CoDs etc there's nowt to use as a prohibition reason - of course unless not maintained, incorrect, broken, hanging off etc etc.

I intend pushing this further (within the law) as I wish to get a definitive (as in law) yay or nay as to whether actual road use law is being broken or not...

Can't find anything yet on 'a trailer must be able to be reversed' not had the time yet, but if someone can point me to it I would be grateful. If I take it steady and I'm on level ground I can reverse my little car (Lordy, one finger can push it on level ground) on the A frame into the drive, for sure not up hill or for hundreds of yards as the brakes would come on as they do when I brake the MH going forward.

I could turn up at a VOSA site and say 'do your worst' if they (MH/braked A frames/toads) are indeed prohibiltable together then I could just take the A frame off - now I have a MH and a car no longer prohibitable and away I go.......:Blush:

Just really bloody curious, that's all.:roflmto:

Trikeman.:winky:
 

schojac

Free Member
Apr 25, 2009
339
234
Cambridgeshire
Funster No
6,433
MH
C Class
Exp
new in 2009
If memory serves me right, any attached trailer which has a braked system (750KGs or greater) should be able to be reversed with the braking system being disengaged automatically. Caravans can do this due to the reversing cam that comes into operation. Toads attached via a mechanical braking system cannot do this and therefore technically break the regulations. Curently I am not aware that VOSA have prosecuted or indeed challenged any motorhome user towing a toad (towed).

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top