Coding for Kids? (1 Viewer)

thehutchies

Free Member
Aug 31, 2007
1,527
1,775
The Wheelèd Shed
Funster No
200
MH
.
Exp
.
It's about time our 12 and 9 year old kids started to understand that computers aren't just for playing games.

We tried KODU but it seems to be just about creating fairly crappy games from an XBox controller.

Now we have started with CodeAcademy but have come to this screen:

Link Removed

Ruby? Python? HTML? JQuery?
I dunno...

Any recommendations?
We will even use the old-tech printed page if there's a good system we can use :thumb:
 
OP
OP
thehutchies

thehutchies

Free Member
Aug 31, 2007
1,527
1,775
The Wheelèd Shed
Funster No
200
MH
.
Exp
.
Can't help you with the programming, however, these are becoming really popular. Could be worth a look.

http://www.technocamps.com/

Glyn

Excellent!

The kids already go to science days at Techniquest Glyndwr when we are local.

I'll send Technocamps an email and see what they can do for the home ed. crowd.

Many thanks :thumb:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

hilldweller

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2008
605
36,108
Macclesfield
Funster No
5,089
MH
Zilch Mk1
Exp
From Aug 2007
It's about time our 12 and 9 year old kids started to understand that computers aren't just for playing games.

They're only kids, let them be kids.

There's not a whole lot of future in computer programming for UK kids. The Indians have a million clever cheap coders on offer.

If you want them to earn a living then it's a long hard slog needing a seriously good degree from a seriously good Uni. That means for now, just plain academic hard work in the essentials.
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
My IT background makes me shudder ::bigsmile: Chucking somebody (of any age) into the deep end of coding without understanding what they are doing is akin to letting them use a calculator without first understanding any maths.

Brian is right, plain academic hard work in the essentials.
 
OP
OP
thehutchies

thehutchies

Free Member
Aug 31, 2007
1,527
1,775
The Wheelèd Shed
Funster No
200
MH
.
Exp
.
They're only kids, let them be kids.

There's not a whole lot of future in computer programming for UK kids. The Indians have a million clever cheap coders on offer.

If you want them to earn a living then it's a long hard slog needing a seriously good degree from a seriously good Uni. That means for now, just plain academic hard work in the essentials.

Fer Dawkins' sake, Brian, you don't want them to do computer coding, B/W processing, thatching, dry stone wall building, fletching...

Broken Link Removed

"The Indians have a million clever cheap ***coders*** on offer."

And a million cheap mathematicians, quantum physicists, toilet cleaners, tree surgeons, professional skateboarders, surgeons, ladyboys, sculptors, taxi drivers and elephant trainers.

The last one might be a fairly specialised market over here but I'd rather the kids concentrated on studying something they are interested in, rather than giving in to a life on the dole because there might one day be competition. :Smile:
 
OP
OP
thehutchies

thehutchies

Free Member
Aug 31, 2007
1,527
1,775
The Wheelèd Shed
Funster No
200
MH
.
Exp
.
My IT background makes me shudder ::bigsmile: Chucking somebody (of any age) into the deep end of coding without understanding what they are doing is akin to letting them use a calculator without first understanding any maths.

Brian is right, plain academic hard work in the essentials.

I was thinking more of a toe in the water rather than chucking into the deep end ::bigsmile:

Today they learned:

alert("I am trapped in a computer. Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh")

and enjoyed it :roflmto:

We all have to start somewhere...
 
Mar 26, 2009
8,130
11,168
Yr Wyddgrug
Funster No
6,057
MH
Hymer B678DL
Exp
Since 2009
As a dyed in the wool assembler man I used to start junior staff off with Rexx. I know this is probably not a "today" solution but it did give them a foundation. If they want to go further then C++ with additional HTML is probably as good as any in today's world. A grounding is useful even if they don't want to take it further. I apologise if my suggestions are out of date but I am a dinosaur.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Feb 27, 2011
14,671
74,888
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
They're only kids, let them be kids.

There's not a whole lot of future in computer programming for UK kids. The Indians have a million clever cheap coders on offer.

If you want them to earn a living then it's a long hard slog needing a seriously good degree from a seriously good Uni. That means for now, just plain academic hard work in the essentials.

Got to disagree with you there. It is more than possible to get into programming without a uni degree. Most of the best programmers I know have started with a passion as kids and gone on from there.
The Indian programmers are either cheap OR good. They are not both. A lot of companies are starting to realise that outsourcing to India and Russia was a mistake.

My IT background makes me shudder ::bigsmile: Chucking somebody (of any age) into the deep end of coding without understanding what they are doing is akin to letting them use a calculator without first understanding any maths.

Brian is right, plain academic hard work in the essentials.

Sorry I disagree as well. Starting with programming at an early age for fun teaches kids logical thinking. They will go out and learn any maths they need as they go along.

There are loads of simple programming environments around now.
Python seems to be the one that a lot of youngsters seem to be learning on.

If I was advising someone on how to get into programming now.
I would say choose on of the high level languages such as python and put together a few simple programs.

As they advanced I would then suggest they look at some of the major open source projects and see if there is anything they can add to it.

One of my young friends who I helped get started now works for a design house doing Drupal development in PHP. He got the job over candidates who had CS degrees due to the fact he had real world experience and a personal passion for programming. He got that job aged 19 and doesn't have a load of Student debt. He is now 22 and learning C++ off his own back.

The most important thing needed to get into programming as a career path is a passion for the subject. They can only get this through being exposed (preferably at a young age)

I wouldn't make it formal training just a fun hobby and if it leads to a passion and a career good. If not hopefully some of the core skills such as logical thinking, breaking down problems into managable chunks and a deeper understanding of what computers do under the bonnet. I would consider this a valuable move for any youngster.

Google for instance don't require a degree for a developers position. But they do put you through an extensive test when applying.

If they are interested in web development, PHP is a simple enough language to learn, through this they could get good exposure to SQL, Ajax and application level security. Once they get to a level where they can put together basic website applications they should get a couple of books on design patterns and security. These combined with SQL will make them commercially viable and a lot of companies would be happy to employ them without a degree.

Once you have your first developers job, getting future jobs becomes much easier and they can teach themselves new languages and technologies off their own back. Submit patches and modules to open source projects. This will show practical real world knowledge in that field and will be good on a CV.

Anyway I am waffling. My main point is programming can start as a hobby and become a career without going onto 6th form or university. Although I would say an A level in maths would be a good help.
 
Feb 27, 2011
14,671
74,888
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
PS: Even if your kids go onto do a degree in programming the early exposure and passion for the subject will make doing the degree so much easier. Giving them a headstart won't hurt :thumb:
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
I didn't suggest that one needs a degree to understand programming. At the same time, programming is more that just chucking a few macros together and hoping they work (which is what some software houses have seemed to do for several years now).

When we had building work at home last year we need the services of bricklayers, joiners, roofers, plasterer, plumber and electrician. Each of those is a valuable and essential skill in its own right but none of them provide the training necessary to create the architectural drawings from which to work and neither do they teach the skills necessary to analyse and document the brief of everything required and how the requirements fit together, from which the architect works.

It's all very well starting with a pile of raw materials but, without the understanding of how, why and to what purpose they are to be combined, the result may be far from what is required and may not work at all.
 

magicsurfbus

Free Member
Oct 11, 2010
4,673
10,127
NW England
Funster No
14,057
MH
Bessacarr Coachbuilt
Exp
Since 1997
Hi thehutchies,

I've been teaching high school ICT since the early 80s when 'coding' (we used to call it programming) was also cool. However, it was cool then because we didn't have a software industry and everybody had to write their own programmes to make their shiny new home computers do anything. By coincidence this was the time when a certain Michael Gove was at private school, along with a selection of teenage computer geeks hacking away at ZX Spectrums and Amstrads in their bedrooms, who went on to establish our computer gaming industry. The gaming industry is now huge in a sense that most people of my generation don't fully appreciate. When a blockbuster movie is released these days, not only will it feature a lot of computer-generated effects, but the sales of related computer games will often bring in more revenue than the film itself. Some Hollywood films actually started out as games titles. The upshot of this is that the CGI and Gaming industries are now major players in media and entertainment - you'll notice they even have their own BAFTAs now.

The 80's teen geeks now have the ear of Gove, and have persuaded him that coding and computer science is more important than existing computer courses that are little more than tedious box-ticking skill audits for Microsoft Office. As much as I detest Gove and despair at his policies, I do actually agree that it's time to kick MS Office into touch, let the other subjects mess around with Word (yawn) and bloody bleeding Powerpoint, and make computing course more about computing, but I also think they should use more multimedia (video, audio, graphics, animation, web design) too. Anyway, enough of the history - back to your original query.

I would suggest downloading Scratch from http://scratch.mit.edu if you haven't already done so, and registering with the website for access to their huge collection of user-generated projects. It's all free and is very popular in schools, for good reason. It's a highly intuitive and entertaining system that works with kids of all ages, and you can do pretty much anything with it, ranging from games, through animations, to robotics projects. In my experience there are precious few software applications that engage whole classes of kids, but this is definitely one of them.

Ignore any pompous nonsense you hear about not letting kids learn to code before University because they get into 'bad habits' - utter b*ll*cks. We wouldn't have a gaming industry if it wasn't for kids experimenting with computers in their teens. It's like saying no-one should aspire to the Olympics until the age of 21.

If your son is 12 (Y8 or below) he will be among the first to take the new-look 14-16 exams starting in September 2014, and Computer Science may be among them (depends on the school), so it'll do no harm to prepare him if he has any ambitions in that direction. These courses will probably be tested by end of course exams only, and not by coursework any more , so his year group are going to need all the help they can get. Most teachers can't remember a time before coursework and some will struggle to adapt. There will also be a shortage of Computer Science teachers, because most people with a Computing degree and any common sense won't touch teaching with a bargepole.

Other areas you might look at are an understanding of how webpages are created using HTML and (possibly) CSS. I've heard good reports about Codacademy so that's worth fiddling with too. You can also get BBC BASIC emulators for PCs which can give an insight into how programming began for many in the 1980s.

I would also encourage your children to investigate multimedia - Windows Movie Maker, Microsoft Photostory (free download), Animation packages like Monkey Jam (free), Graphics packages like Gimp (free), and Audio software like Audacity (free).

I have a Raspberry Pi at home and haven't really had time to look at it properly, but bear in mind it'll need a keyboard, monitor, SD card and mouse as extras, and depending on the monitor might need an adapter to make the screen display work. The main purpose of the Raspberry Pi is to allow kids to fiddle with programming using open source software like Linux without wrecking the family's PC.

My God I've written an essay here - hope it helps.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Last edited:
C

Chockswahay

Deleted User
I think kidz take to HTML coding quite well. Within a very short period they get to put their results on line for all the world to see, this creates quite a 'feel good factor'.

The subject matter is irrelevant, simply having web pages that work seems to be fun :Smile:
 

sedge

Funster
Jul 7, 2009
5,494
13,033
Nr Jct 3 M6
Funster No
7,396
MH
C class
Exp
Aug 09 to date 9,000 miles!
Hee hee, I was gonna reply last night and say, they are teaching this in schools so if you are Home Ed (which was said) - then you better be doing it too, which was one of the points Glyn made, I thought?

Here's me, nearly 63 and still hacked off that I wasn't allowed to learn to type, apparently I was too intelligent. Education has tended to be far too blinkered in the past - sat with my doc one day as he typed a letter, wanted to shove him out the way. Unbearably slow. No paragraphs or punctuation and a million spelling errors. aaaargghh. And he's about 10 years younger than me and like everyone, has to type stuff.

Graham don't understand what you mean about brickies particularly not being able to draw plans - my BiL is a time served brickie, this included the Civil Eng part so he knows exactly what RSJ joist lintel etc to put in to prevent the building collapsing and also TD so he can draw plans. I've known several brickies along the way who also could. And also the Quantity Surveying and Hell! - the ordinary surveying! - Grief ! how can eg a plumber get the main drainage in right if he doesn't do the levels before he starts?

Or - are you saying they all used to, but can no longer do it?
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
I'm sure there are many people out there, Jenny, who are multi-skilled but not everybody is. If they are it is because they will have trained in various aspects not a single one - i.e. they have not just jumped into the deep end focusing on a single skill. It is one thing to put an RSJ or main drainage in the right place but somebody has to decide where the right place is beforehand.

For instance, erecting a house with an east facing lounge when the client wants to enjoy the evening sun from their lounge will not meet requirements. It's the same with software. You can't design a system with certainty that it will do what is required unless you have understood those requirements, and simply knowing how to write programs doesn't provide people with those analysis and design skills.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

hilldweller

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2008
605
36,108
Macclesfield
Funster No
5,089
MH
Zilch Mk1
Exp
From Aug 2007
Fer Dawkins' sake, Brian, you don't want them to do computer coding, B/W processing, thatching, dry stone wall building, fletching...

I may have misunderstood your intentions. OK so not a career move but still on a mighty rocky road these days.

I've had the same thoughts in my head for my grandkids. I built them a tiny micro that let them flash LEDS. Got their attention for some minutes.

The problem now is just what kids are used to. When I started with computer chips I hand assembled code on paper before burning an EPROM. I bought books with listings of games, but in those days Hangman was a sophisticated game. If it drew an ASCII image it was something special. Great way to learn, still got the books.

But today, they are used to such sophistication, 3D cinema-real games, Facebook, that sort of thing. Anything you can teach them like "Hello World" is so insignificant. Can they get enthusiastic about that. The point is, from that to something comparable with trivial apps is light years away.

This has sparked off a lively thread, hasn't it.

Oh, and this week, I dismantled my once proud of 2 1/4 x 2 1/4 colour enlarger and scrapped it. A thing whose time has passed, bit like me.
 
Feb 27, 2011
14,671
74,888
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
I may have misunderstood your intentions. OK so not a career move but still on a mighty rocky road these days.

I've had the same thoughts in my head for my grandkids. I built them a tiny micro that let them flash LEDS. Got their attention for some minutes.

The problem now is just what kids are used to. When I started with computer chips I hand assembled code on paper before burning an EPROM. I bought books with listings of games, but in those days Hangman was a sophisticated game. If it drew an ASCII image it was something special. Great way to learn, still got the books.

But today, they are used to such sophistication, 3D cinema-real games, Facebook, that sort of thing. Anything you can teach them like "Hello World" is so insignificant. Can they get enthusiastic about that. The point is, from that to something comparable with trivial apps is light years away.

This has sparked off a lively thread, hasn't it.

Oh, and this week, I dismantled my once proud of 2 1/4 x 2 1/4 colour enlarger and scrapped it. A thing whose time has passed, bit like me.

I think I know what you are saying. However modern development environment that are aimed at kids are really really good.
It is simple on the surface and within minutes kids can be placing a ball on the screen and moving it around. They have already learnt about cartesian coordinate system after a bit of playing. Within an hour they can have them bouncing round the screen and within the day can have collision detection so white balls burst red ones for example.

By experimenting and playing they will learn what variables are, how to use lookup tables and indirectly they will learn about pointers. This is all about playing but they don't realise they are learning really important programming fundamentals.

When/If they go to university and they are introduced to pointers and arrays they will instinctively understand it because they have a light going on moment, oh that's what I did in that bouncing ball game I wrote as a kid. When they are being taught matrices at school they will have a real world use for transformational matrices from when they were playing with 3D a bit later.

I didn't see the point to matrices at school as we were taught them using the example of a milkman doing his rounds. It was a totally irrelevent example that didn't make any sense. It wasn't until I starting working at a software house working on a 3D game and had to learn all that maths from scratch the I wish I had listened more carefully in the 3rd year at school.

By the way I learnt about inertia from writing one of my early games long before I learnt about it in physics class at school because of programming...

If a kid shows even the vaguest interest in programming it should be encouraged as much as possible without forcing them.:thumb:

You never know they may be the next Wozniak, Zuckerberg, Jobs, Gates, Dell or Ellison. (Who all dropped out of college or didn't go at all)


Here is a quote from Bill Gates. (please note I am not a fan of him or Microsoft but he is an excellent programmer)

Bill Gates – “The best way to prepare [to be a programmer] is to write programs, and to study great programs that other people have written. In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and fished out listings of their operating system.”
These days you don't need to dumpster dive. We have a massive amount of OpenSource software that you can just look at and learn. A lot of this software has been written by the best brains on the planet when it comes to software.
 
Last edited:

hilldweller

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2008
605
36,108
Macclesfield
Funster No
5,089
MH
Zilch Mk1
Exp
From Aug 2007
I think I know what you are saying. However modern development environment that are aimed at kids are really really good.

Looks like I'm out of touch here, have you got any links ?

Grandkids visit over Easter I'd love to see how they get on.

A huge part of programming these days is being an artist. Long gone are the mega efficient days of input "Enter Name", n$ now we have to place a nice box on screen, make it look pretty and user friendly. Line the next box up precisely etc etc.

And masses are employed in the CGI world, they code in pictures, movement, wouldn't know an "if" from a "while".

But all the time progress is eating away at the craft, as you have just shown with your app project. Less and less code, more and more join up black boxes. What has not changed is the system analysis. A kid can join up these black boxes but it takes education/experience to put together a meaningful structure to achieve anything.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Chris

LIFE MEMBER
May 5, 2010
21,009
274,689
Funster No
11,412
MH
None
Exp
10 years
I have absolutely no expert imput here. However isn't it important to first of all discover if a child is interested in computers?

If not, no amount of teaching will provide that spark of interest.

I think computers are boring and would if I was still a child.
 
Feb 27, 2011
14,671
74,888
UK
Funster No
15,452
MH
Self Build
Exp
Since 2005
Looks like I'm out of touch here, have you got any links ?

Grandkids visit over Easter I'd love to see how they get on.

As already mentioned have a look at Scratch for the youngsters. For young teenagers I think Blitz basic is pretty good. For older teens I would say look at Python. PyGame is project I seem to recall my nephews playing with last summer? Python is a very versatile language used by everyone from server admins for scripting to writing apps to writing games.

http://www.python.org/about/apps/
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
I remember my boss coming back from a presentation of some new super-duper coding system getting on for 30 years ago. He was full of how we could cut down on employing fully trained COBOL programmer/analysts and just employ coders in future because the new system would do all the work in generating reports.

He wasn't so full of it when I asked who was going to analyse, design, create and maintain the databases on which the new super-duper coding system was supposed to work :Doh:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

magicsurfbus

Free Member
Oct 11, 2010
4,673
10,127
NW England
Funster No
14,057
MH
Bessacarr Coachbuilt
Exp
Since 1997
If I had a penny for every time at a parents' evening I've heard..

"I'm not sure why you think he's under-achieving in ICT, he spends hours on his computer"

.. I'd have £9.37
 
OP
OP
thehutchies

thehutchies

Free Member
Aug 31, 2007
1,527
1,775
The Wheelèd Shed
Funster No
200
MH
.
Exp
.
I may have misunderstood your intentions. OK so not a career move but still on a mighty rocky road these days.
.

If a kid shows even the vaguest interest in programming it should be encouraged as much as possible without forcing them.:thumb:

I have absolutely no expert imput here. However isn't it important to first of all discover if a child is interested in computers?

If not, no amount of teaching will provide that spark of interest.

I think computers are boring and would if I was still a child.

Many thanks for all the opinions :thumb:

Going slightly off topic, one of the great advantages of home education is that you can throw all sorts of opportunities at the kids and just wait for something to stick, something to pique their interest.

At the moment, the older two are interested in learning about computers at a slightly deeper level than just using word-processing or playing internet-based games.

I'm just trying to provide options for them to explore and then they can spend as much or as little time on it as they choose.

If one decides to concentrate on programming and the other wants to be a master fletcher, that's fine.

My brother is a programmer and one of his mates has just taken a contract with one of our major banks paying £18,000 a month :Eeek:

Really, I'm just looking to tap the kids up for a pension supplement when the time comes. :Smile:
 

sedge

Funster
Jul 7, 2009
5,494
13,033
Nr Jct 3 M6
Funster No
7,396
MH
C class
Exp
Aug 09 to date 9,000 miles!
Precisely what my nephew did and still does when he runs out of beer tokens. Although he doesn't actually spend it on beer TBH. Fixed term contracts ever since he left Uni 20 years ago. Names his own price from what I can gather.

Lots of playtime and cars and other toys, diving on the Barrier Reef and quality time with The Brown Dog (Cocker Spaniel) and human friends.

But he can't play for too long at a time because he needs to keep up with the latest whatever. So he applies for another job. And with his CV .....
 

sdc77

Free Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,244
4,550
Weardale, Co Durham
Funster No
24,456
MH
Coachbuilt
Exp
since 2011
I have to thank the op for this thread. My earlier suggestion to get the kids a raspberry pi inadvertently answered my main issue at present. So.. I have a new rpi on the way and it will be installed in the van as my on board computer.
Im really quite excited by the possibilities tbh :)
. And to the op .. maybe a similar project for your kids?
 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top