Tow ball fitting to a PVC , any ideas please (1 Viewer)

May 8, 2011
3,834
47,977
God's county. Helmsley, North Yorkshire.
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IH Tio 630 RL
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Since April 1846 but have always camped.
Hi,
I want to be able to put a small motorbike on the back of my Renault Master PVC .
Tow ball Express gave me a quote but as soon as they found out that it was a motorhome they backed out due to the complexity of fitting the electrics.

Has anyone on here done this to a van conversion? The payload seems fine as total weight of bike and rack is 125kgs.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Many thanks
 

old-mo

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Oct 16, 2008
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Nearly aint got one.
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Caravan & motorhome 45 + yrs
Not fitted one...

But the electrics shouldn`t cause a problem... They only have to take a spur off each individual light cluster at the back...

Or am I missing some thing..?

Get them to put an ordinary 7 pin socket and then all you need is a lighting board with a seven pin Plug on a short`ish lead.. plug the lighting/number plate board in bungy it on the bike frame somewhere and you should be sorted..:thumb:
 
OP
OP
Nirvanauk
May 8, 2011
3,834
47,977
God's county. Helmsley, North Yorkshire.
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IH Tio 630 RL
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Since April 1846 but have always camped.
Not fitted one...

But the electrics shouldn`t cause a problem... They only have to take a spur off each individual light cluster at the back...

Or am I missing some thing..?

Get them to put an ordinary 7 pin socket and then all you need is a lighting board with a seven pin Plug on a short`ish lead.. plug the lighting/number plate board in bungy it on the bike frame somewhere and you should be sorted..:thumb:

Thanks for that.
Thinking about this a bit further, do I actually need electrics? The moped on this rack will not protrude any further than the fiamma bike rack I currently have with 2 bikes on the back and this has no electrics.
Cheers.
 

scotjimland

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Jul 25, 2007
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Thanks for that.
Thinking about this a bit further, do I actually need electrics? The moped on this rack will not protrude any further than the fiamma bike rack I currently have with 2 bikes on the back and this has no electrics.
Cheers.

Not required if the van lights and number plate are not obscured .. but it may be worth while having them fitted for future use, perhaps pulling a small trailer .. then again, not hard to fit later..
 

TheBig1

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Nov 27, 2011
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many many years! since I was a kid
Thanks for that.
Thinking about this a bit further, do I actually need electrics? The moped on this rack will not protrude any further than the fiamma bike rack I currently have with 2 bikes on the back and this has no electrics.
Cheers.

Its actually a simple enough DIY job to fit a bar and electrics to a PVC, and I have done several over the years. The bar simply goes together like mechano and bolts to the existing holes in the chassis. the electrics, you can get a kit that simply plugs in underneath the back end or behind the light clusters. Should take no more than 2-3 hours if your not experienced less if you are

PWS in Poole charge an absolute fortune, but the towbar centre about a mile away are very fast and efficient. They built and installed the custom bar for my coachbuilt including electrics for £350, PWS wanted over £1000

Any local towbar fitter will be able to do the job, so phone around a few for quotes.

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bigmillie

Free Member
May 6, 2008
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On/off since 1966
Do not forget to check rear loading for your MH

A1 = existing front axle load
(before adding on the new rear load)
A2 = existing rear axle load
(before adding on the new rear load)
L = weight of new rear load
W = wheelbase (the distance between the front and rear axle centre-lines)
O = overhang (the distance from the rear axle centre to the centre of mass of the new rear load).
Add the figure for the new rear load, and carry out the following calculations:
New front axle load (new A1) = A1 – [L x (O ÷ W)]
New rear axle load (new A2) = A2 + L + (A1 – new A1).


For example, take a ’van with a current front axle load (A1) of 1500kg and a rear axle load (A2) of 2000kg (see diagram). The scooter and its rack have a total mass of 150kg, the vehicle’s wheelbase (W) is 3000mm and the overhang (O) is 1000mm. Put those figures into the above equations and the new front axle load will be: 1500kg – [150 x (1000 ÷ 3000)]. This works out at 1500 – 49.95 which is a new front axle load of 1450.05kg. Now that we have a new A1 figure, we can move on to the second calculation to get the new rear axle load: 2000 + 150 + (1500 – 1450.05) is a new load of 2199.95kg. In other words, the scooter and rack would add nearly 200kg to the back axle, while taking almost 50kg off the front axle.

You will need to compare these figures to the maximum axle loadings shown on the vehicle plate. If your new rear axle load is greater than that on the plate, then you cannot fit the rack and motor scooter.

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/safe-loading-and-payloads
 

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Terry

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Dec 27, 2007
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Can't remember ;)
Hi it should make no difference to the instillation of a tow bar --ALL YOUR VAN ELECTRICS SHOULD STAY THE SAME :thumb:The conversion side should have it's own electrics that should not inter act with the vans normal electrics --if you get my drift.
terry
 
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Nirvanauk
May 8, 2011
3,834
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God's county. Helmsley, North Yorkshire.
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Since April 1846 but have always camped.
Thanks for all your comments.

The problem now seems to be down weight! All seem to have a towing capacity of 2,500 kgs however they seem to have a downweight max of 100kgs. The bike weighs 100 kgs and the ramp weighs 25kgs so this would cancel my insurance policy.
Any thoughts?

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Terry

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Dec 27, 2007
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Can't remember ;)
Hi you have lost me :Smile:I think the best bet would be for you to go to a weigh bridge as Charlie (bigmillie) advisers and take things from there :thumb:Never heard of anyone having insurance invalidated for being 25kgs overweight :winky:
terry
 

vwalan

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Sep 23, 2008
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but most carriers dont put anything on the tow ball . surely the racks fit to the tow bar . with a bolted plate . some you can still tow with a m,bike on the rack. certanly can my kliponoff.

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OP
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Nirvanauk
May 8, 2011
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God's county. Helmsley, North Yorkshire.
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Since April 1846 but have always camped.
Think that I'm slowly getting my head around this. Spoke to a very helpful person at Towtal. Evidently if it is a coachbuilt it has been modified as such and therefore it can have a customised tow bar fitted. If it is a PVC and therefore a manufacturers standard build it cannot have a modified towbar fitted and is subject to this manufacturers standard which seems to have a standard nose weight of 100kgs, this I imagine would be the same for all vans wether it be Renault/fiat/Citroen, etc.

I think I've got this right but would love to be told that I haven't!! Cos at this rate I'm not having a moped on the back!
 

Geo

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Jul 29, 2007
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I suggest your asking the wrong people the wrong questions
For example Easy lifter motorbike carriers will sell you a clip on/of carrier that fits all standard tow bars and carries a 200Kg load
Geo
as a matter of interest is your vehicle described as an M1 type approved in your V5

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vwalan

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Sep 23, 2008
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we know where you are coming from geo. lets hope it not an ,M.
mind it could be a,N.
 
OP
OP
Nirvanauk
May 8, 2011
3,834
47,977
God's county. Helmsley, North Yorkshire.
Funster No
16,317
MH
IH Tio 630 RL
Exp
Since April 1846 but have always camped.
I suggest your asking the wrong people the wrong questions
For example Easy lifter motorbike carriers will sell you a clip on/of carrier that fits all standard tow bars and carries a 200Kg load
Geo
as a matter of interest is your vehicle described as an M1 type approved in your V5

Hi, my first point of contact was easylifter. Their ramps are rated for 200kgs but that doesn't help if the towbar is only rated for 100. I'm waiting to talk to them again tomorrow.
Regarding the V5 that's away at dvla at the moment getting the number plates changed.
Many thanks for your advice.
P.s. Julie just called from Watling Engineering to say that there isn't a problem custom making a tow bar so I am really confused now!
 

Geo

Trader - Funster
Jul 29, 2007
11,757
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Mansfield,Notts
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Autotrail Tracker FB
Exp
45 +years with breaks
Hi, my first point of contact was easylifter. Their ramps are rated for 200kgs but that doesn't help if the towbar is only rated for 100. I'm waiting to talk to them again tomorrow.
Regarding the V5 that's away at dvla at the moment getting the number plates changed.
Many thanks for your advice.
P.s. Julie just called from Watling Engineering to say that there isn't a problem custom making a tow bar so I am really confused now!

I was alluding to the fact that your vehicle being a commercial van in effect, maybe outside the M1 classification rules and any tow bar may be used maybe Watling beat me to it or suspect the same
I personally have used and carried a 215KG machine + rack on a standard tow bar plate:Doh:

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oldun

Free Member
Mar 23, 2008
747
162
St Neots
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VW Campervan
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Since 2001
What is the maximum towbar download that Renault specify for the Master?

I've just got shot of mine but I have the feeling that it was not very high?
 

oldun

Free Member
Mar 23, 2008
747
162
St Neots
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VW Campervan
Exp
Since 2001
Do not forget to check rear loading for your MH

A1 = existing front axle load
(before adding on the new rear load)
A2 = existing rear axle load
(before adding on the new rear load)
L = weight of new rear load
W = wheelbase (the distance between the front and rear axle centre-lines)
O = overhang (the distance from the rear axle centre to the centre of mass of the new rear load).
Add the figure for the new rear load, and carry out the following calculations:
New front axle load (new A1) = A1 – [L x (O ÷ W)]
New rear axle load (new A2) = A2 + L + (A1 – new A1).


For example, take a ’van with a current front axle load (A1) of 1500kg and a rear axle load (A2) of 2000kg (see diagram). The scooter and its rack have a total mass of 150kg, the vehicle’s wheelbase (W) is 3000mm and the overhang (O) is 1000mm. Put those figures into the above equations and the new front axle load will be: 1500kg – [150 x (1000 ÷ 3000)]. This works out at 1500 – 49.95 which is a new front axle load of 1450.05kg. Now that we have a new A1 figure, we can move on to the second calculation to get the new rear axle load: 2000 + 150 + (1500 – 1450.05) is a new load of 2199.95kg. In other words, the scooter and rack would add nearly 200kg to the back axle, while taking almost 50kg off the front axle.

You will need to compare these figures to the maximum axle loadings shown on the vehicle plate. If your new rear axle load is greater than that on the plate, then you cannot fit the rack and motor scooter.

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/safe-loading-and-payloads

The Renault Master has a very tiny rear overhang.

Great whne carrying heavy loads at the rear - bad for turning circle.
 

oldun

Free Member
Mar 23, 2008
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but most carriers dont put anything on the tow ball . surely the racks fit to the tow bar . with a bolted plate . some you can still tow with a m,bike on the rack. certanly can my kliponoff.

It's not the weight on the towball that will be the deciding factor - you must also consider the maximum weight that the towbar exerts on the mounting points and this is often around 100 kg.

It certainly was with my Renault Master.

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oldun

Free Member
Mar 23, 2008
747
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St Neots
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VW Campervan
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I suggest your asking the wrong people the wrong questions
For example Easy lifter motorbike carriers will sell you a clip on/of carrier that fits all standard tow bars and carries a 200Kg load
Geo
as a matter of interest is your vehicle described as an M1 type approved in your V5

Anyone can sell you something that may be illegal to use - it's your responsibility to see if it is legal on your vehicle - not hteir responsibility.

Very very few vehicles regulated by the current regulations can legally carry more than 100kg (or so)
 

pappajohn

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Aug 26, 2007
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Since 2005
I believe the downforce on the BALL has nothing to do with the 100kg downforce max.

tow balls dont come with a weight plate/sticker...but tow BARS do, some are just 50kg some are 75kg some are 100kg and some are even higher depending on the vehicle and the manufacturer.
you could fit a Nato jaw type which may have a limit of 10s of tons.

A standard 50mm ball could have a towing weight limit far greater than your van is legally allowed to tow....possibly as much as 3500kg

you wont have something with a towing limit of 3500kg but a downforce of less than 3% of that weight.

the tow-BAR to chassis fixings and chassis loading will be the deciding weight limit.

as to lighting....I dont know the age of the PVC but it could have can-bus controlled lighting which needs special bypass relays, a separate battery pos feed to the relays and possibly connecting harnesses.

if not then good old splicing will do the job.

either way, its not rocket science to wire a towbar.

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Last edited:

oldun

Free Member
Mar 23, 2008
747
162
St Neots
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VW Campervan
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Since 2001
but most carriers dont put anything on the tow ball . surely the racks fit to the tow bar . with a bolted plate . some you can still tow with a m,bike on the rack. certanly can my kliponoff.

You must then exceed the rated download on the TOWBAR. There is a maximum rated load on the towbar as well as a maximum rated load on the towball. The first (towbar) is controlled by the manufacturers of the van and the second (towball) if controlled by the manufacturers of the towbar and towball.

Both values are likely to be 150kg or less.

Even if you are within limits of these two values you may well overload the rear axle (see posts above).
 

Frentchy

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Oct 2, 2013
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Ive just made my own Tow bar, I was quoted 2400€+vat; It depends if you need extensions for a overhang, or its a van conversion; what year is it? if ts recent you need an electric kit; lots of things to know, Iv got the Tee shirt:cautious:
 

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