wheelchair access in to commercial shops (1 Viewer)

slobadoberbob

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I have been following the debate on the disabled converted motor home that Chris posted on MHF .....

This morning I went on the hunt for an RCD box.. boy are they big now... but I did a bit of research on line and looked at the various books I have .. screwfix, tool station, B&Q .. local A1 electrical trade shop.

B & Q had no RCD equipment at all. But had flat and easy access

Screwfix has a step that I cannot get up in a wheelchair

A1 Electrical .. closed as bank holiday, but again a step I cannot get up

Tool station flat and easy access

Have had to order it for over night delivery and can return it with 30 days if I do not use it...

But the point of the post was, it is interesting to note that while most shops and premises now comply with the Equality Act a fair few commercial premises do not. Why is it that these types of shops think they do not have to comply with the law? :Sad::Sad:

I had honestly thought having to go in to a restaurant via the kitchens had ended. But it seems not.. a large company like Screwfix one would have thought would have complied with the equality Act..... so my £41 went to Tool Station.

Bob
 
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Especially bad if the unit these places are in was a 'new build',more difficult with older properties. They do stretch the point regarding 'intending to' I think its comes under section 15 of the act.
Or perhaps they do not consider disabled contractors.
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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I think you have hit the nail on the head

Especially bad if the unit these places are in was a 'new build',more difficult with older properties. They do stretch the point regarding 'intending to' I think its comes under section 15 of the act.
Or perhaps they do not consider disabled contractors.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.. disabled contractors? no there cannot be any of those.... :Sad::Sad:

Bob

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I have been following the debate on the disabled converted motor home that Chris posted on MHF .....

This morning I went on the hunt for an RCD box.. boy are they big now... but I did a bit of research on line and looked at the various books I have .. screwfix, tool station, B&Q .. local A1 electrical trade shop.

B & Q had no RCD equipment at all. But had flat and easy access

Screwfix has a step that I cannot get up in a wheelchair

A1 Electrical .. closed as bank holiday, but again a step I cannot get up

Tool station flat and easy access

Have had to order it for over night delivery and can return it with 30 days if I do not use it...

But the point of the post was, it is interesting to note that while most shops and premises now comply with the Equality Act a fair few commercial premises do not. Why is it that these types of shops think they do not have to comply with the law? :Sad::Sad:

I had honestly thought having to go in to a restaurant via the kitchens had ended. But it seems not.. a large company like Screwfix one would have thought would have complied with the equality Act..... so my £41 went to Tool Station.

Bob

What do you mean by "comply" Bob??....did you ask if they had ramps??
 

Chris

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What do you mean by "comply" Bob??....did you ask if they had ramps??

You shouldn't have to ask though surely?

You need to get in the shop to ask.

I think it's really poor .
 

pappajohn

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Priorities Bob....

locally to us is a sub post office and a bookies...next to each other.

the bookies has a purpose built disabled access ramp....

the post office has five steps and a door bell :Doh:

but ring the bell and someone will come out to you, even if they cant get you inside.

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pappajohn

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we recently re-wired the council's 'local community' office in one of the suburbs.

originally a two storey block of flats that had a full renovation over the two floors with wheelchair friendly corridors and wide doors on both floors and a full disabled toilet facility on the upper floor, all at great cost to the public.

excellent !!! except one minor hitch.
the upper floor only had an external concrete staircase..two short flights and a half landing. :Doh:
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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come across that sort of thing before

we recently re-wired the council's 'local community' office in one of the suburbs.

originally a two storey block of flats that had a full renovation over the two floors with wheelchair friendly corridors and wide doors on both floors and a full disabled toilet facility on the upper floor, all at great cost to the public.

excellent !!! except one minor hitch.
the upper floor only had an external concrete staircase..two short flights and a half landing. :Doh:

It is not as strange as it seems, have come across that before.


Bob:Sad:
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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yep that is the issue

You shouldn't have to ask though surely?

You need to get in the shop to ask.

I think it's really poor .

It breaches the Disabled Discrimination Act PART III section 19. 20 and 21

But it all comes down to Reasonableness.

OK they supply a bell.. with is out of reach... some have a ramp some do not.

I still in T/Wells just now waiting for Sue that was in Iceland... I was parked out side a mobility aids store.. yes steps to get in.... in the window was a disabled blue sign saying a ramp was available... OK, not 100% but a step in the right direction.

Bob

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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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unable to ask ...

What do you mean by "comply" Bob??....did you ask if they had ramps??

It is the type od store on an industrial estate.. steps to the front doors.. then it has a big sales display area and put your order on a form then the counter is at the back.. with all the young boys messing about..... how did I know? Sue went in... no one offered a ramp or to come out to me... just gave Sue the catalogue, which I already had... round corner to Tool Station £8.50 cheaper and I got in and discussed the issue with someone, who took the time to show me what was in stock... the item I wanted was at the main warehouse.. delivery free tomorrow... and if it is no good then I can return it within 30 days for a full refund.


Bob
 

pappajohn

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It breaches the Disabled Discrimination Act PART III section 19. 20 and 21

But it all comes down to Reasonableness.

OK they supply a bell.. with is out of reach... some have a ramp some do not.

I still in T/Wells just now waiting for Sue that was in Iceland... I was parked out side a mobility aids store.. yes steps to get in.... in the window was a disabled blue sign saying a ramp was available... OK, not 100% but a step in the right direction.

Bob
that will be the highways departments fault Bob.

you cannot build onto a public footpath/road under any circumstances.

recently finished work at a junior school and a new entrance lobby was built between two other buildings.
the glass front and door led directly onto the pavement and the ramp was to go along the front.

then someone realised they couldnt build on the footpath so the frontage had to be rebuilt 3 mtrs further back and the ramp installed on that patch of land.

architects....i've sh** 'em :Doh:
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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This building has plenty of internal room

that will be the highways departments fault Bob.

you cannot build onto a public footpath/road under any circumstances.

recently finished work at a junior school and a new entrance lobby was built between two other buildings.
the glass front and door led directly onto the pavement and the ramp was to go along the front.

then someone realised they couldnt build on the footpath so the frontage had to be rebuilt 3 mtrs further back and the ramp installed on that patch of land.

architects....i've sh** 'em :Doh:

This place has plenty of internal room to build a ramp and it is on a private estate.. just they do not expect wheelchair users to need to buy there goods it seems:Blush:


Bob

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GJH

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It is the type od store on an industrial estate.. steps to the front doors.. then it has a big sales display area and put your order on a form then the counter is at the back.. with all the young boys messing about..... how did I know? Sue went in... no one offered a ramp or to come out to me... just gave Sue the catalogue, which I already had... round corner to Tool Station £8.50 cheaper and I got in and discussed the issue with someone, who took the time to show me what was in stock... the item I wanted was at the main warehouse.. delivery free tomorrow... and if it is no good then I can return it within 30 days for a full refund.


Bob

If the building was erected after the 1995 Act came into being there is no excuse at all for any barrier to wheelchair access.

If I were you, Bob, I'd be firing off a strongly worded e-mail to the Kingfisher (B&Q and Screwfix) CEO, Ian Cheshire (ian.cheshire@kingfisher.com) describing your experience. The only way with some companies is to make them realise that it is their pockets which are suffering.
 

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Two sides to every story

When we had our equestrian/feed store we were threatened with prosecution unless we made our access suitable for disabled customers.

We spent in excess of £5000.00 and in the following six years we never got a single customer in a wheelchair.

The daft thing is if they had parked in our carpark and rang us or asked any other customer we could easily have accomodated them and would have been pleased to do so
 
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A few years ago our local optician moved premises to a Victorian house which required change of use from a private dwelling. I took my wife in her wheelchair along for an eye test. The main entrance was up 2 steps, asked about access and told to use the side entrance. After pushing her accross a gravelled driveway 2 very narrow french doors were openned, furniture was moved about and we waited to see the optician. Finally we were called in for the eye test only to find the doorway was too narrow for a wheelchair !

You'd have thought that apart from requirements for the 'change of use', common sense would tell an optician that it is fairly likely that quite a few of his patients would be using wheelchairs. We just haven't gone back since

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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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I am sure you would do so BUT

Two sides to every story

When we had our equestrian/feed store we were threatened with prosecution unless we made our access suitable for disabled customers.

We spent in excess of £5000.00 and in the following six years we never got a single customer in a wheelchair.

The daft thing is if they had parked in our carpark and rang us or asked any other customer we could easily have accomodated them and would have been pleased to do so

I am sure you would do so... BUT .. do you phone people and ask them to bring items to you in a car park? do you not like to browse and have a look what is in the store... do you just go and think OK need some pony nuts.. phone please bring me some pony nuts out I cannot get in.... but you may have then sold more if that person had got in.... how many disabled people have you lost before you complied with the DDA1995?

I just make an observation.. not having a go at you.. people do not often think it all the way through.

Bob:Blush:
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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have sent him an email

If the building was erected after the 1995 Act came into being there is no excuse at all for any barrier to wheelchair access.

If I were you, Bob, I'd be firing off a strongly worded e-mail to the Kingfisher (B&Q and Screwfix) CEO, Ian Cheshire (ian.cheshire@kingfisher.com) describing your experience. The only way with some companies is to make them realise that it is their pockets which are suffering.

I have now sent him an email

Bob
 

jhorsf

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My dentist is at the top of a large flight of stairs no lift
I have in the past had to cancel my appointment when not well enough to climb the stairs how do they get away with being an NHS dentist with this access ?

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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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This is by SWMBO... not me

My dentist is at the top of a large flight of stairs no lift
I have in the past had to cancel my appointment when not well enough to climb the stairs how do they get away with being an NHS dentist with this access ?

Right slobber has insisted I answer this one as unfortunately for me managing dental contract is my job!!!

NHS Dentists are not employed by the NHS. Like your GP they are contracted by the NHS to provide a service but they are all independent contractors and those that have historically provided treatment for NHS patients have a contract. Dental contracts are not entered into lightly and are very limited by the resource available. If you have a concern regarding access then you should take it up with the practice and they should be able to offer alternative accommodation; in the real sense though they will probably direct you to your Primary Care Trust (PCT) who is responsible for providing healthcare for all the residents within its boundary. They will be able to tell you where there is a wheelchair accessible practice. This does not help those that cannot transfer from wheelchair to dental chair as most do not have hoists. If this is the case then your dentist should refer you to the community dental service who do have all the necessary provisions.

Hope this helps......Sue.....she who is NEVER obeyed!!!
 

GJH

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As I said in my earlier post, if a building was erected after the 1995 Act came into being there is no excuse at all for any barrier to wheelchair access. There is also no excuse for any organisation not to comply with the DDA.

However, we also have to realise that a large part of the infrastructure of this country was built well before 1995. That is why the DDA placed a duty of compliance on people to "take such steps as it is reasonable, in all the circumstances of the case" for them to take. It does not require, for instance, that a business bankrupt itself to make changes or close/move premises simply because its existing premises cannot be made accessible.

Each case has to be treated on its merits.
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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The word is reasonableness

As I said in my earlier post, if a building was erected after the 1995 Act came into being there is no excuse at all for any barrier to wheelchair access. There is also no excuse for any organisation not to comply with the DDA.

However, we also have to realise that a large part of the infrastructure of this country was built well before 1995. That is why the DDA placed a duty of compliance on people to "take such steps as it is reasonable, in all the circumstances of the case" for them to take. It does not require, for instance, that a business bankrupt itself to make changes or close/move premises simply because its existing premises cannot be made accessible.

Each case has to be treated on its merits.

The word is reasonableness.... now tell me what reasonableness means? The Law Lords still have a problem with that.. what is reasonable to me is not to you for example.

it a conumdrum


Bob

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ShiftZZ

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NHS Dentists are not employed by the NHS. Like your GP they are contracted by the NHS to provide a service but they are all independent contractors and those that have historically provided treatment for NHS patients have a contract.



Bob, that I understand, but when things go wrong its the PCT that picks up the bill!
 

MikeD

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reasonableness

Bob

For me - being "reasonable" is having a expectation to access a restaurant without going through the kitchen or being able to visit a local dentist or DIY store.

In this day and age such things are not beyond the wit of man to sort out.

Mike
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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Sue says

Bob, that I understand, but when things go wrong its the PCT that picks up the bill!

Sue says.. if the dentist does something wrong for example if it is shown you have been going to the same dentist for years and had no problems, regally went and saw your dentist.. then you had to see a new one for whatever reason.. the new dentists says that there are defects .. the PCT would take the dentist to the GDC...

Sue is not aware of anyone suing a PCT for poor dental treatment... in actual fact if you go in to hospital and have poor treatment and neglect and you are successful in taking action ... it is the hospital that is liable not the PCT.

Does that cover it.... As dentist are independent contractors they carry the can.. have to have insurance and the PCT check they do. .. each dentist not the practice .. each dentist has to have his own insurance.


do not shoot the messenger.... these are SWMBO words... shorten by me.


Bob

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scek

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As a shop owner where the front door has 2 steps.
If we wished to add a ramp we would have to have plans drawn up and planning passed as the pavement is owned by the council. The cost of the plans, planning application and then the build will be paid by ourselves. If anyone in a wheelchair wishes to pay for this then I am willing to submit a planning application but so far no one has volunteered to pay for it.
The local booze shop went through the process and paid the cost of it all and says it was the biggest waste of money ever spent as his ramp is only only by kids on skate boards, very rarely does a wheelchair user use the ramp.
Don't blame the shop owner for not having a ramp - blame the local council for the red tape and extra costs.
 

GJH

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The word is reasonableness.... now tell me what reasonableness means? The Law Lords still have a problem with that.. what is reasonable to me is not to you for example.

it a conumdrum


Bob

Of course it is a conundrum, which is why I said each case must be judged on its merits. Practicality has to come into it. Some buildings, especially older ones, simply cannot be made wheelchair accessible. That is not the fault of anyone, least of all anyone alive now, simply a reflection of the times when they were built.

What other term would one use instead or reasonable? At the end of the day it has to come down, like so many things, to the man on the upper deck of the Clapham omnibus.
 

GJH

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Don't blame the shop owner for not having a ramp - blame the local council for the red tape and extra costs.

Don't blame the local council either. The DDA is national legislation which all councils are bound by. They have no choice in the matter either way.

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jhorsf

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As a shop owner where the front door has 2 steps.
If we wished to add a ramp we would have to have plans drawn up and planning passed as the pavement is owned by the council. The cost of the plans, planning application and then the build will be paid by ourselves. If anyone in a wheelchair wishes to pay for this then I am willing to submit a planning application but so far no one has volunteered to pay for it.
The local booze shop went through the process and paid the cost of it all and says it was the biggest waste of money ever spent as his ramp is only only by kids on skate boards, very rarely does a wheelchair user use the ramp.
Don't blame the shop owner for not having a ramp - blame the local council for the red tape and extra costs.



I am sorry to disagree but if you were in a wheelchair I doubt you would have the same opinion :Doh:
 
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slobadoberbob

slobadoberbob

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As a wheelchair user I find your remarks less than acceptable

As a shop owner where the front door has 2 steps.
If we wished to add a ramp we would have to have plans drawn up and planning passed as the pavement is owned by the council. The cost of the plans, planning application and then the build will be paid by ourselves. If anyone in a wheelchair wishes to pay for this then I am willing to submit a planning application but so far no one has volunteered to pay for it.
The local booze shop went through the process and paid the cost of it all and says it was the biggest waste of money ever spent as his ramp is only only by kids on skate boards, very rarely does a wheelchair user use the ramp.
Don't blame the shop owner for not having a ramp - blame the local council for the red tape and extra costs.

So please tell me why do you think you do not have to comply with the law?

Just because it will cost you money you feel you do not have to comply... Do you sell illegal goods to under aged kids? I presume that is OK in your book as you make up your mind as to what law you will or will not comply with.

I have come across people like you a few times. Thankfully not that often ...They think only of there own profits.

Shame on you.:Angry::Angry:

oh do you pay rates I wonder or do you tell the council you do not think the rules apply to you.

Bob
 
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I am a shop owner (no wheelchair ramp, but assistance available) and my wife is now a wheelchair user so I can see things from both sides.
We bought the MH last year so that we could travel without thinking of disabled toilets for one.

Initially she was against the idea but now she loves it. We tend to use sites, especially those with a pub nearby. Most pubs are not wheelchair friendly but the staff and customers are - helping us in and out, moving tables, and themselves sometimes.

Last month we took the MH to Majorca, they put us and the MH on the wrong deck (no lift) - crew member took my wife, in the wheelchair, up two escalators. Scary enough but even scarier coming down at the other end !!

Overall we take the view 'live and let live' - life's too short::bigsmile:

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