A Frames (1 Viewer)

slverdreamers

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I know this has been done to death, but have just been reading Smart a Tows web site and they state that no one with their A Frame has ever been stopped in the EU and they state that if any one is fined, they will pay the fine. Makes you think.
Still not bringing ours to Spain.
 

TheBig1

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I would suggest that you get the promise of payment in writing and read the small print. Most likely excludes countries where the law specifically state they are illegal
 

scotjimland

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I know this has been done to death, but have just been reading Smart a Tows web site and they state that no one with their A Frame has ever been stopped in the EU and they state that if any one is fined,[HI] they will pay the fine[/HI]. Makes you think.
Still not bringing ours to Spain.

Maybe they are finding sales are being affected by recent forum postings.. (not just on Fun) so better to pay an odd fine than lose sales..

it's a good gamble.. for them ..

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Billy23

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Mmmmmm, isn't that against the law of Europe to encourage you to break the law of any member state, bit like you break into the shop and if they catch you ...dont worry I will go to prison for you.

Then of course it's not just the fine, it's the hassle...unhitched the car, hope your partner can drive the car......so on .....so on....

Hah shan't bother.
 

beachcaster

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I really want one............just not pressed the button yet..... saw a lady driving her motorhome at Shepton last year...........pullung a Yaris Diesel Auto..and though .......hey Ive got one of those at home ( the Yaris )

But which one?......only to use here and france perhaps

She was using a

http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk/

and loved it ..was very light too.....anyone got one ??.......4 wheels have got to be better than 2 ?

barry
 

dennismartin

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taking mine to them tommorow

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656

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Tow bars to tow cars use one of the original towing bolts on the car. The towing eyes are not designed to take that amount of stress. They also use an electronic brake system. How would you explain that to the cops abroad. If they dont understand how they work, they could fine you. What you need is a system like Cat A Tow or Chris Cox use, at least the cops can see and understand how the brakes work. I have a Car A Tow system fitted to my Smart and it works a treat, sturdy and secure. Not flimsy and light weight!!!
 

Xabia

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My A frame is in the garage of my house in Spain::Sad: not worth the aggro if you get stopped.

Article in the local English paper a couple of weeks ago: chap stopped near Teruel, fined 500 euros but didn't have the cash with him. Guardia Civil impounded his driving licence, took him to cash machine to get the money, fine reduced to 250 euros for cash payment.

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vwalan

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personally i think, in fact positively reckon cara tow and the cris cox system is illegal here . the electric system is definately one of the only ways to meet the braking requirements .
i can see no reason for the electric system or an air system to be not covered under eu rules in spain. i can see that the conventional overrun hitch cant meet the rules .
 

TheBig1

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Tow bars to tow cars use one of the original towing bolts on the car. The towing eyes are not designed to take that amount of stress. They also use an electronic brake system. How would you explain that to the cops abroad. If they dont understand how they work, they could fine you. What you need is a system like Cat A Tow or Chris Cox use, at least the cops can see and understand how the brakes work. I have a Car A Tow system fitted to my Smart and it works a treat, sturdy and secure. Not flimsy and light weight!!!


Youre not wrong about the towing eye bolts not being suited to this. From experience, they are barely able to cope with recovery. We had one shear off in the hole whilst recovering a broken down car. I certainly would not rely on using them to fit an A frame for towing any distance.

After ours broke I asked about with various mechanics and car dealers I know and they say its far more common than many people realise for them to break. The manufacturer only designed them for infrequent use and in a straight line at low speed. Recovery truck drivers normally wont use them for loading by winch either. A slight incline or bump in the road may be all it takes to seperate your car from the frame, so not safe

Should anything happen whilst towing a car that causes injury to a third party, its not the manufacturer that will be hauled into court initially, it is you, the driver of a vehicle that has proven to be unsafe on the highway. A bit like a lorry shedding its load due to the driver not securing it properly or a strap snapping through wear and tear. :Eeek:
 

vwalan

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most road side fines in spain will get a 50%reduction if payed there and then. the spanish police dont normally tell you but it is very easy to read on the bit of paper they give you . there as been appeals for the offence of using an aframe if a tourist, and money etc in fines have been returned . trouble is most tourists arent prepared to appeal. using eu law and standing your ground at the time ,and making a good and proper fuss getting your reasons for going to appeal known at the time is the only way to use an aframe in spain. if you arent prepared to argue and go to court then dont use one.

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pappajohn

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they may pay a fine but will they send a 'relief' driver to Spain for me..... Shirl doesnt drive and i would find it hard driving both the RV and the toad at the same time :Doh:
 

darklord

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My contention is, and always has been, that they are illegal everywhere, its just that differing states chose which laws to enforce and which ones not to give too much prevalence to.
We ran world famous buses in london, until we submitted a new design, then the EU stated they were illegal, in this country nobody bothers you sleeping in your van or lorry without a proper bunk or night heater, try doing it in Germany, other countries will soon be following spain I think.
Its worth asking, if people had opted for trailers, would they be more available and cheaper by now?, its also worth noting, that i doubt whether any vehicle with a transmission handbrake could use an A frame anyway.
 

Billy23

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It seems that we sometimes try to think of all sorts of reasons why an A frame will be or could be legal in Europe. Well I spend lots of time at my house in Spain and I think it would be almost impossible to convince a Spanish policeman in my area that it is legal......it ain't ...end of!! That's it try if you want and when you don't get a pull, that will go a long way to convince you that it's all ok, but it's not, you just got away with it that time.

It has been do to death, but only because people try another angle.

Right now I will find my beer :Smile:

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pappajohn

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personally i think, in fact positively reckon cara tow and the cris cox system is illegal here . the electric system is definately one of the only ways to meet the braking requirements .
i can see no reason for the electric system or an air system to be not covered under eu rules in spain. i can see that the conventional overrun hitch cant meet the rules .
Brakes aren't the issue here Alan.....Spanish motoring law specifically forbids a motorised vehicle towing another motorised vehicle unless its on a trailer/flatbed truck
 

pappajohn

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My contention is, and always has been, that they are illegal everywhere, its just that differing states chose which laws to enforce and which ones not to give too much prevalence to.
We ran world famous buses in london, until we submitted a new design, then the EU stated they were illegal, in this country nobody bothers you sleeping in your van or lorry without a proper bunk or night heater, try doing it in Germany, other countries will soon be following spain I think.
Its worth asking, if people had opted for trailers, would they be more available and cheaper by now?, its also worth noting, that i doubt whether any vehicle with a transmission handbrake could use an A frame anyway.
agreed...trailer regs state if brakes are fitted (even under 750kg) they ALL must work...one brake on each wheel which is why an A frame brake works on the foot brake, not the hand brake.
 

Geo

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And untill spain excepts that a motorised vehicle attached by an A frame is "a trailer" as far as the UK is concerned it will stay that way
The A frame is not illegal in Spain its what you do with it that seems to offend:ROFLMAO:
Geo

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pappajohn

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And untill spain excepts that a motorised vehicle attached by an A frame is "a trailer" as far as the UK is concerned it will stay that way
The A frame is not illegal in Spain its what you do with it that seems to offend:ROFLMAO:
Geo
very true Geo, in the same way it was not illegal to own a CB radio in the 70's and 80's...but it was illegal to use it :Doh:
 

vwalan

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pappa isee it as a brake issue as i believe most aframes sold in the uk dont meet braking regulations . some do.
as for spain the spanish interiour minister says that if the system meets directives 70/156/eec or 94/20/ec it is permitted. so being able to meet uk regs on trailers is the point i,m making . most a frames dont incorporate a required correct braking system for the use of reverse . the electric system or air .or i have seen an hydraulic one .i believe meets the requirements . i dont use one in spain but if i wanted to i would . and be prepared to cause international up roar.
 

jhorsf

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beachcaster

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My contention is, and always has been, that they are illegal everywhere, its just that differing states chose which laws to enforce and which ones not to give too much prevalence to.
We ran world famous buses in london, until we submitted a new design, then the EU stated they were illegal, in this country nobody bothers you sleeping in your van or lorry without a proper bunk or night heater, try doing it in Germany, other countries will soon be following spain I think.
Its worth asking, if people had opted for trailers, would they be more available and cheaper by now?, its also worth noting, that i doubt whether any vehicle with a transmission handbrake could use an A frame anyway.

Why do you say that about the handbrake ? Lots of different opinions on this.......its a very technical area.but only the courts can decide how the law is interpreted. And the police in the uk.....are not taking anyone to court ?

barry

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Destination Unknown

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We support A Frames

Hi We started off on our travels in Sept 2009 travelling France and Spain and our Aygo on a http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk/ A Frame.

It was fantastic - light enough for me to handle should it have to come off the RV which it did quite alot whilst we were travelling due to badly sited gas stations in Spain and France, tight turns that we could not make without removing the car and when we were on the wrong road and needed to turn round. Also so easy to take off the car and stow when we had parked up.

We have used the A frame since then and travelled France, Spain and Portugal 2010 without any problems with the police. This year we decided to winter in the UK and we are pleased we have done.

If we do go to Spain I will have to drive solo as we are not brave enough (like VWAlan) or know enough about the law to argue with the Police as well as we do not know enough Spanish to argue our case. Not ideal as the journey together is what we enjoy.

Its a shame that suddenly now they have decided to uphold the law when for years the police have turned a blind eye to us A Framers and the A frames then were not as sophisticated as they are now.

I think the A Frame Manufacturers should support us and try and get some dispensation in the EU for us to use them but I don't think that will happen.

Its a shame as it will stop many m/hmers enjoyin their winter sun and Spain will loose out in tourism so no one wins in the end.

Regards Chris
 

vwalan

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hi, i do have aframes.dollies etc here .
i,m glad i opted for my mini artic . mind a 5er works .
i very nearly always carry a tow recovery pole .but even that in spain is a no. mind have got away with it by using it to push. i think the police just didnt know what to say.
think to be honest us with 5ers or artics have made the best choice .
is it the way forward for many . i think it is .
gets round expensive medicals etc at 70yr old so another gain there.
even the over 8.250kg can be forgotten with the right set up.
give a thought if you are thinking of changing vehicles .
have had mine 11yrs now the positives out way the negatives or me.
have fun .
 

slobadoberbob

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That is the point .. well posted

Brakes aren't the issue here Alan.....Spanish motoring law specifically forbids a motorised vehicle towing another motorised vehicle unless its on a trailer/flatbed truck

For once I have sat back and watched the thread.. some very sensible posts on the subject.:thumb:

I do have worries about a company supporting braking the law ... that is not good and regardless of the motive it is wrong. morally wrong and legally wrong.

Using it to promote sales is not acceptable at all.

Bob

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Snowbird

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I for one am guilty of Aframing for many years as I was of the opinion that American RVs were the way to travel. I saw the problems coming with Aframes in Spain 2 years ago and it was one of the deciding factors as why I downsized to a more manageable motorhome. There is of course the argument that if you must have a car when touring why have a motorhome. Why not have a car and caravan. Just maybe that's why there is such a huge interest in 5 ers now. Having said that there are many places that we have visited that it would be impossible to get a 5 er or an RV.
 

slobadoberbob

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we have considered going back to........

I for one am guilty of Aframing for many years as I was of the opinion that American RVs were the way to travel. I saw the problems coming with Aframes in Spain 2 years ago and it was one of the deciding factors as why I downsized to a more manageable motorhome. There is of course the argument that if you must have a car when touring why have a motorhome. Why not have a car and caravan. Just maybe that's why there is such a huge interest in 5 ers now. Having said that there are many places that we have visited that it would be impossible to get a 5 er or an RV.

We have considered going back to tugging.. but using a Airflow caravan being pulled by a day van.. that way we can remove the electric bed in the day van and the seats behind the driver and front passenger.. that would give us bags of room for our two scooters and Ezzie.. plus we would still have an American vehicle .. the air stream caravan has a most of what we have in an RV... My last Dodge Ram was a 5.2 and could pull a tank.. Only last night I was looking in one of the USA motorhome trader magazines I get and there was a couple of reasonable not over size or weight airstreams for sale.

All on the table when we think about changing the RV at the end of this season.

Bob
 

moandick

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You will probably not know that on the RVOC - in conjunction with "Poacher" and "Slobberdobberbob" I have been investigating the whole concept of A Frames and the Law.

The outcome is very simple - They are not legal in the UK - however, as yet, they have not been proved illegal, either - so you takes your choice or you pays your money, as the saying goes.

However on the Continent, things are rapidly changing - especially as far as Spain is concerned - and there, if caught and stopped - you will very definitely pay your money - hand over fist!

Here is the very latest information direct from Bob French and the EC headquarters:

Dear Dick,
The Saga goes on. After my last missive re contact with the British Embassy Barcelona, I contacted the European Advice Centre asking them about the legality of the actions by the Spanish government in making it unlawful to tow using an A frame. The following is their reply.

Two points:-

1. To resolve this problem it would need someone to employ a Spanish lawyer in conjunction with Solvit to take the matter to court. This would, probably, be a quicker way of obtaining a result than going through the European Parliament.

2. I would be willing to do this but as I am on a pension I cannot afford too. However, anyone, or body, could take this up in Spain.

Thoughts to ponder on.

Regards,

Bob
emailto:europeadvice-allocations@ec.europa.eu
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 9:02 PM
To: bobfrench
Subject: Your Europe Advice enquiry 101505

Dear Sir/Madam,

Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.

Your follow up question relates to the legality of towing a car on a “Aframe” behind a motor home or camper van under EU law.

This requires us to give you a more detailed answer in order to clarify the issue raised in your follow up question. Note must also be made that Your Europe Advice is not in a position to give detailed advice concerning the specifics of your particular query given that our service has no means to assess the factual circumstances elicited in your post.

Your post concerns the application of Directive 71/320/EEC of 26 July 1971. You will find the summary of the same below:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summar...ehicles_technical_harmonisation/l21247_en.htm

European law on trailers lays down a number of prescriptions.

One of these is that any trailer built after April 1989, must have an auto-reverse brake mechanism, which may not be possible to achieve with ‘A’ frames. Accordingly, it can be argued that where these A frames do not have an auto-reverse brake mechanism, such A frames do not conform to the Directive.

The UK Department of Transport has published new guidelines (in September 2011), which states that “the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met.

For the full text of this, please visit the following website: Broken Link Removed

The key here is whether the braking requirements are met for “A” frames.

Furthermore, you have correctly pointing out that the Foreign Office has started to warn UK motorists that the use of the A frames is not permitted in Spain.
http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars

The National Trailer and Towing Association (NTTA) consider that the braking arrangement in an A frame does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and subsequent amendments. http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/

Whilst the conclusion reached by the UK Government must be given due consideration, you should also be aware of the potential issues surrounding the use A-frames.

Given the finding made by the Dept of Transport in the UK that the use of an A-frame as described in your question is lawful, the legal implications are contained under the Treaty provision relating to the free movement of goods in Article 34 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union.

Should you wish to take this up with the Spanish authorities, you are urged to consider instructing a Spanish lawyer who will be able to advise you about this matter.
http://www.ccbe.eu/index.php?id=140&L=0

Finally you may also seek the assistance of Solvit, which aims to assist in cases of the misapplication of European Community law.

You will find further information about this process at the following website:

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm

You are required to submit a complaint and the Solvit aims to provide a solution for you within 10 weeks. You will know within a week of submitting the complaint, whether the Competent Solvit Centre has taken on your case.

I trust the above answers the questions you had and thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.

Kind regards.
Your Europe Advice.

To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice, but do not reply to this e-mail.

Yours sincerely,

Your Europe Advice


My thanks to Bob for the information - and I for one will certainly NOT be A Framing on the Continent this year.

Dick

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