Leisure battery confusion (1 Viewer)

kelpbeds

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I posted a week ago or so about problems with my Webasto heater not lasting too long due to low voltage issues.
I have now decided to go ahead with traction batteries to solve this.

Since then I was looking at the van (Chausson flash 14 on transit 59 plate) and noticed another battery under passenger seat that I didn't know was there,( in addition to the starter battery under the drivers seat and the leisure batteries under dining area seat). This other battery had a sticker next to it saying 'auxillary battery'. I wondered if this was a back up to the starter battery or another leisure battery. So I figured I would see what it was wired to.
I made a circuit with a bulb, battery and wire and connected one end to aux battery postivie terminal and one to the starter battery pos terminal. It lit up, therefore showing me they were connected. I then did pos of aux battery to pos of leisure batteries, again it lit up. And then pos of starter battery to pos of leisure batteries, again it lit up.
Telling me that all the batteries are connected together (this was with engine off) Now my understanding was that the split charge relay should ensure that the leisure battery side of things is not connected to the starter battery/s when the engine is off or am I not understanding something correctly?
Thanks
Tim :Blush:
 

jonandshell

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On our Chausson Welcome 35, the Ford fitted Auxillary battery is in parallel with the rest of our 'leisure' (actually traction) batteries.

The 'starter only' battery is isolated by a large relay on the Ford battery compartment fuse board.
This, in effect is your split charge relay and energises when the ignition is switched on.
The bonus with this setup is that your radio and vehicle road lighting run from your leisure battery bank if you engine isn't running.

The Chausson-fitted 'split charge relay' simply isolates your auxillary/leisure battery bank from your caravan electrics, nothing else! This is energised by your switch on the control panel over the door.

You will note the Chausson-fitted relay mentioned above and leisure battery are connected to one of the three 'customer connections' fitted on the left rear of the driver's seat/battery box. On your model, the relay might be connected directly to your leisure battery (the effect is the same).
These are all fused at 60 amps each. And will supply charging current when your engine is running.

If you fit extra batteries, just connect your positive lead to a spare one of these.
Use a heavy duty cable to help with voltage drop if your new batteries are a distance from these connections.

Doing this works fine on our MH, no issues to date and three days,below zero, off hookup with our Webasto Dualtop going 24 hours/day.

We aren't sure when the Ford battery will expire, but don't expect it to last forever with continual deep discharges!!!!

Hope this helps!:Smile:
 
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pappajohn

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pos to pos on any two batteries it shouldnt light up at all...it will just act as a link.

it needs a pos and neg to light.

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jonandshell

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He made a circuit using a bulb and a battery.

In effect a continuity tester!

Although it is not mentioned if he disconnected the MH battery terminals!
Even if he didn't, it would still work.
 

vwalan

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i know where pappa is coming from it says one end on positive other end on positive. where is the earth. seems like op didnt know what they were doing. might be safer to let an auto electrician diagnose.
mind i just read it again and think you maybe right .but it did sound confusing. think i,ll shut up before i put my foot in my mouth . ha ha.
i must learn to read properly.
 

pappajohn

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i know where pappa is coming from it says one end on positive other end on positive. where is the earth. seems like op didnt know what they were doing. might be safer to let an auto electrician diagnose.
mind i just read it again and think you maybe right .but it did sound confusing. think i,ll shut up before i put my foot in my mouth . ha ha.
i must learn to read properly.
i have an excuse......8 bourbons :ROFLMAO:

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vwalan

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hi john ,i havent had a drink yet today ,my hands are shaking too much to open the new bottle .must get some cartons of red out of the truck ,much easier to open.
had to get new batteries for truck today 217 quid no wonder i,m shaking. been on 3 yrs but even so thats still over a quid aweek just to have batteries . that was only the start ones . god help when the leisure ones go down. have a good new year and dont get sozzled much. regards to all .alan
 
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kelpbeds

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Thanks for your replies especially Jon for his erudite explanation.

It is correct that I have made a continuity tester i.e. the same thing as using a multimeter set so that when you touch the terminals the buzzer sounds, only in my case a light goes on.

Jon you are spot on in that when I touch the pos terminals of the leisure batteries with the pos of the starter battery the light will come on as the circuit will complete through the earths to the vehicle chassis (something I didn't figure out yesterday - so vwalan you were right in saying I didn't know what I was doing in this case! )

So I figured that if I disconnect the negative terminal of the leisure batteries and then connect the tester to the pos of the leisure batteries and the pos of the starter I would now assume that the light should not come on, because the starter battery should not be connected to leisure batteries with engine off. But it does! (this is the case when the control panel is on or off)

What seems to be the case to me is that when I am parked up and using caravan electrics I am also connected to the starter battery and therefore draining that too, which the testing seems to support. I am doing the testing to check that this isn't the case and to see how the auxillary battery is wired in.

Now I'm also a bit confused about what Jon said about the fact that the Chausson relay isolates the leisure battery from the caravan electrics. Shouldn't it isolate the caravan electrics from the starter battery so that the starter battery is not drained when parked up and you are using caravan electrics powered from the leisure battery?

And finally is the auxillary battery a standard 'leisure' battery that comes with the transit and is not added by Chausson?

Really appreciate the help and apologise for any ignorance on my behalf, but I am keen to learn!

Tim :RollEyes:
 

jonandshell

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Hi Tim

A picture paints 1000 words so here goes!

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jonandshell

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This is better!

You will see your starter battery is completely isolated with the ign off, so no worries!

On our Welcome, the Chausson relay is connected to the Ford 'customer connections'. The effect is the same.

If you remove your drivers seat and take off the battery clamp, under the black plastic cover lies the battery fuse board.
It is under here that you can actually see the arrangement described, including the starter battery isolator relay.
To make access easier in the future, I have removed part of the plastic cover so that you can remove it with the battery clamp in place. It will make changing fuses easier on a cold windy night!
 

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jonandshell

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LOL, I need a tutorial in Microsoft Paint Wildman!!!!::bigsmile:

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kelpbeds

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Jon,
Very good of you to take the time to draw the diagram, spot on when I enlarged it and made it very clear.

I totally understand it all now, however (sorry!) the diagram shows that the pos connection from the leisure bat and the pos connection of the starter bat are isolated via the ford relay when ignition is off. However when I tested it (with earth of leisure batt disconnected from chassis so circuit couldn't go complete through there) I found a connection between the 2, when I shouldn't have - which makes me think there is something wrong in my setup. Which is the only bit still confusing me!

Thanks again
Tim
 

jonandshell

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There is a fused wire from the starter battery which is connected at the caravan distribution board.
I didn't include this in the drawing to keep things simple!

I have tested the function of this wire and it seems to do 2 things.......

1. It supplies power directly to the distribution panel so you can initially switch on the caravan relay for leisure battery power.

2. When the mains charger is running and the leisure battery is fully charged, it allows trickle charging of the starter battery.

It might be that you are showing continuity through this wire because of this. It shouldn't discharge though. Ours never has!
On ours, when you start the engine, the Chausson fitted relay clicks in to allow 12V running of the Fridge.

The Ford Aux battery by the way, is just an extra Ford branded starter battery.

Please bear in mind that ours is a different model, however we do have the twin Ford battery setup and I expect Chausson wire their vans similarly!

The best way to be sure of the setup you have, given the complexities of the Ford twin battery arrangement, might be to have that seat off and take a look! Its only four screws!
The battery clamp is the worst bit!:Smile:

Think yourself lucky too! Our original leisure battery is under the passenger seat!!!
 
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kelpbeds

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Great stuff Jon you're a top man! Clear at last. Complicated stuff eh, glad someone is up to the job!

Well I've just ordered 2 x T105 Trojans so that should sort out my heating's lack of staying power. Have also sussed where to vent the hydrogen out through the floor.

I presume that leaving the ford auxillary battery as part of the leisure battery bank won't compromise the effectiveness of the trojans when I put those on?

Thanks

Tim

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jonandshell

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Hi Tim

Our original Ford aux battery is still there and doesn't seem to affect our two traction batteries in the garage at all despite being connected to them in parallel.

Having read your original post again, I might have misunderstood.
Have you got 2 batteries under your driver's seat?
I ask because Transits come with Ford-supplied single and twin battery systems under the driver's seat. It makes a difference to the split charge arrangement.

Our van in it's original configuration had a leisure battery under the passenger seat. The starter and Ford 'aux' battery are under the driver's seat.
 
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kelpbeds

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That's good re auxillary connected to the Trojans.

No, I have one battery under the driver's seat, which is a 'Ford' battery, and another battery, which has a sticker next to it labelled 'auxillary' under the passenger seat - similar to yours yes?

thanks

Tim
 

jonandshell

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Ah Ha!!!

Not the same as ours LOL!

I need to draw another picture!!!!::bigsmile:

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kelpbeds

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Sorry! But just think, you will be an expert in Photoshop when you've finished!::bigsmile:
 

jonandshell

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Does this make more sense????::bigsmile:
 

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kelpbeds

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Yep, total sense, I will whip the seat off later and have a look.

Many thanks again and wishing you a very happy new year.

Tim

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jonandshell

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If that is your setup, I'd rip out the 'aux' battery and use the space for a safe or something!

Just put your Trojans in place of the leisure battery!!!!

Our MH is still in Ford warranty so we are leaving our original batteries in place just for now.
The traction batteries we have in the garage are connected in parallel.

I really don't mind the drawing, its like having an etch-a-sketch for Christmas all over again!::bigsmile:

Happy new year don't put your back out moving that seat around!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

jonandshell

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Just for interest, this is our current setup. Frankenstein would be proud! This WILL be simplified once the Ford warranty expires!::bigsmile:

It works well enough!Just as well we have a 3850kg chassis!

It would be better if all aux batteries could be conditioned by the Sterling unit.
 

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kelpbeds

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Setup looks impressive! I've also got a sterling unit on mine which whacks the amps up a fair bit when the engine is running.

I was thinking about taking out the aux battery and putting the sterling unit in there as I prob won't have enough room where it is now in with the leisure batteries due to increased height of the trojans.

I whipped the seat off and it was just like you said! Included pics to show the 3 60amp user attachments. And my back seems to have survived it, though will probably go when I have to lift up the Trojans!

Cheers
Tim

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jonandshell

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Ref the Sterling unit, I had to be mindful of where the fridge is run from.

It would be very easy to have your Sterling running the fridge too if you aren't careful!
Obviously it wouldn't work correctly!
That is the reason, with our setup, the traction battery bank is isolated from all but the Sterling unit when the engine is running.

The pics looked good, did you see what I meant about cutting out a bit of plastic from the fuse box cover? It's the clamp which is the nightmare!

Glad to be of help!::bigsmile:
 
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kelpbeds

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Good point re the fridge, will have a think about that.

Yes can see what you mean about cutting out the bit of plastic, clamp does look a bit of a pain!

Cheers again ::bigsmile:
 
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kelpbeds

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Just checked your setup and realised that my sterling is wired same way as yours i.e. it is connected to the leisure battery side of the relay. Phew!

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jonandshell

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If you look carefully, my Sterling's input is connected directly to the starter battery as is intended by the manufacturer.
It might be worth checking the amperage rating of that relay!

50A Sterling plus 20A for fridge = 70 Amps flowing through! A bit of resistance in that relay might be hampering the Sterling unit if it is not up to the job!

My Sterling is powered directly from the starter battery, but the traction batteries feed back to the caravan electrics via that added relay which I have set up to close the circuit only when the ign is off. Remember my Ford 60A connections are part of the leisure battery circuit on my van!

Fitting a Sterling unit is a very worthwhile upgrade and really enhances the performance of your batteries, but split charge relays and fridges can complicate matters!

The fridge is powered by the distribution board, are you sure that you haven't got a looping circuit?

Ie Sterling unit charges battery which is in turn connected to the Fridge via the distribution board. The distribution board is connected to the input of the Sterling via the split charge relay, therefore connecting the sterling's input to output!

Ideally, you would need to connect the Sterling unit directly to the Starter battery (hey! Ford provide a nice 60 Amp connection for that!), then the output from the charger directly to your positive terminal on the leisure battery bank (your new Trojans!).

The cable which exists between your leisure battery bank and your distribution panel needs a 5-pin relay inserting into it set so that you a apply an ign live to energise it and break the circuit.

Thus, with the engine running, the split charge relay closes and runs your Fridge via the distribution panel. The Trojans will be disconnected from the distribution panel by your new relay. Therefore they will get uninterrupted Sterling love!!!!

Upon stopping the engine, the starter battery is isolated and the Trojans are connected to your distribution panel to give days of uninterrupted Webasto heating! QED!

Do take note of where that Webasto is fed from, the main input terminal post where your Trojans and split charge relay connect to will be best!:thumb:
 

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kelpbeds

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Understand the general gist of that Jon but must admit my layman's mind is a little overwhelmed by the finer details! I've got a mate who is an electrical engineer so will get him to have a read me thinks!
And just a wild shot in the dark (and cheap shot at a solution) but does it make any difference whether the distribution board is on or off when the engine is running to the potential prob with sterling and fridge?
Cheers
Tim
 

Wildman

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I have perused the diagrams with interest in a couple of cases the "Aux" battery is in parellel with the engine battery to give it more oomph and in others it is in parellel with the leisure batteries and therby causing a problem. Batteries in parellel will charge to the level of the smallest battery and no more so 85 amp/hr + 2 x 115amp/hr = 3 x 85amp/hr batteries. All leisure batteries should be same size age and capacity or all will be pulled down to the lowest one resulting in much less capacity than you expect and premature failure of the bigger batteries.

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