'TOADs'...'A' frames Proposed New Regulations ?! (1 Viewer)

[davidallan]

This Q relates to the proposed NEW Regulations/Tech spec that is to be introduced in the next 2/3 years.??

Most of us that TOW a vehicle behind our MH with the A-Frame[Braked] have most likely come across suppliers of other systems which SEEM to claim that they are FUTURE proof and will be OK with the Pending new Regulations in all EEC countries.oh:

WE would really like to upgrade/Renew our 'A' frame to a much more "light weight" type that are available BUT I have been unable to find the these 'NEW REGULATIONS' that may come in 2014/2015???:Blush:

ARE THEY WRITTEN YET & AGREED ?.....PLEASE Post a link IF there is one

Many thanks for any pointers...:thumb:

 

[Wildman]

Ha ha "A" frames are banned in a number of countries now and that number is increasing. Only way to protect yourself is to get a trailer.

 

[slobadoberbob]

100% right Roger

Ha ha "A" frames are banned in a number of countries now and that number is increasing. Only way to protect yourself is to get a trailer.

We had a chapter and verse copy of a letter to Mick (RVOC member) from his MEP and the Spannish Ambassidor in London.. quoting the law and the dates it came in to force. We have seen motorhomes stopped now in many countries including German and the Check Republic and Belgium.

At present the toads on sale in the UK which rely on a cable to apply the cars rear brakes do not comply with the RTA - Construction and use regulations. Much debate recently on RVOC about this. We have had all the regulations listed and regardless what some dealers will say they are not legal as they cannot be reversed and braked. It is not until you get to a fully automatic system do you get near sorting out the issues. But still not legal in europe.

Bob

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[jhorsf]

Hot POTATO anyone

 

[656]

Can of Worms?

 

[jhorsf]

It is actually a very good question

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[moandick]

The Big Pitch Guide in very close collaboration with another member on here (Poacher) has been looking into this situation - involving Mick and Pat, Des and Ann and Bob French - all stopped for towing with an A Frame in various Countries.

Poacher has been very deep into the subject - and among other relative Authorities - has been as far as the UK and European Parliament, the Manufacturers of the over-ride brake systems, Vosa, DVLA, Uncle Tom Cobley and all. The investigation is on-going.

In essence - yes the rules will change in 2013 - but nobody yet is quite sure what they will change to.

One thing is very, very, certain - and I make no bones about it and I will not discuss it any further because it is set in EU parliament blood:

Just because the UK does not stop its citizens from towing with A frames DOES NOT (and I mean DOES NOT in capital letters) imply that you are allowed to tow with an A Frame in other Countries.

Each Country is allowed to make its own laws - and abide by them irrespective of what the current EU ruling is. For example - Spain has actually passed a law banning A Frames - and in some cases Policemen are backing up that law - but just because some do - and some don't, does not make it legal.

There is still NO proof that A frames are legal in the UK - similarly - as far as I know, nobody has yet proved that they are not legal -

Nevertheless - it has to be said and understood - just because nobody has been stopped in this Country for towing with an A Frame - does NOT make it legal to tow with an A Frame in other European Countries.

END - OF - STORY.


Dick

 

[jonandshell]

Ha ha "A" frames are banned in a number of countries now and that number is increasing. Only way to protect yourself is to get a trailer.

-Or a caravan!

Quote from the Ken Bruce show on radio 2 today, 38mins 50secs into the show-check it out on I-player 20/09/11!

" Why don't we invent a motorhome without an engine which we can tow with our car? This time next year we'll be rich I'm telling you!"

 

[scotjimland]

-Or a caravan!

Quote from the Ken Bruce show on radio 2 today, 38mins 50secs into the show-check it out on I-player 20/09/11!

" Why don't we invent a motorhome without an engine which we can tow with our car? This time next year we'll be rich I'm telling you!"

many a true word spoken in jest ...

makes more sense than tugging a car :thumb:

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[jonandshell]

Sorry to go off topic, but also on the Ken Bruce Show on Radio 2, they advocated towing the motorhome with your small car instead to save fuel "because some of those small cars will do 80mpg"!

 

[Larrynwin]

We had a chapter and verse copy of a letter to Mick (RVOC member) from his MEP and the Spannish Ambassidor in London.. quoting the law and the dates it came in to force. We have seen motorhomes stopped now in many countries including German and the Check Republic and Belgium.

At present the toads on sale in the UK which rely on a cable to apply the cars rear brakes do not comply with the RTA - Construction and use regulations. Much debate recently on RVOC about this. We have had all the regulations listed and regardless what some dealers will say they are not legal as they cannot be reversed and braked. It is not until you get to a fully automatic system do you get near sorting out the issues. But still not legal in europe.

Bob

Don't understand Bob, I have a Car a Tow A Frame with overrun brakes via a cable which links to the footbrake which obviously operate on all four wheels not just the rear brakes. As the servo is not operating there is a braking efficiency of around 50% which I understand meets legal requirements for braked trailers .
Reversing is difficult but is possible for a few yards with the overrun system allowing the wheels to run free.
My understanding from many threads on this subject is that this system is not illegal in the UK.

Larry

 

[johnp10]

Hi Larry,

Strangely, the efficiency of the brakes is not the same thing as "braking efficiency"
All road vehicles must have a service brake efficiency of at least 50%. (C&U Regs).
The "efficiency" referred to is measured as a percentage of the vehicle gross weight. Whilst familiar with C&U, I'm no technician, but I doubt a trailer (toad car in this case) designed to have brakes enhanced by a servo would be able to meet requirements without the servo actually working? I base this on experience of being towed in a vehicle with a dead engine, hence no servo. Brakes needed extreme pressure to have any effect.

May be wrong...over to the technicians.

Why not buy a fiver or some other sort of caravan? much more efficient combination and more living space.

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[scotjimland]

John..


Geo conducted tests with a toad on his brake rollers...

This subject has been covered before and I conducted a few tests on our Mot brake rollers in response to that post
Brake efficiency is NOT effected by the lack of, or failure of power or vacuum assistance
Geo

Link Removed

Not exactly laboratory conditions, but..
over all braking % figures without servo were very slightly less than with the servo, it is my considered opinion that in an emergency panic situation the un servo,d brakes would stop the vehicle,in the event of a servo failure, even front wheel lock out was obtained without to much pressure being applied, pressure reqd was approx 2 to 3 times greater and IMHO easily obtainable by the brake overrun system
vehicles with rear disc's as opposed to drums did not perform quite so well on the un servo'd rears and were borderline but passable
Geo

Link Removed

 

[Larrynwin]

John, I love my RV, have tugged a caravan before and would not go back. If a frames become illegal in the UK I will use my trailer for the toad. :thumb:

Larry

 

[pappajohn]

We had a chapter and verse copy of a letter to Mick (RVOC member) from his MEP and the Spannish Ambassidor in London.. quoting the law and the dates it came in to force. We have seen motorhomes stopped now in many countries including German and the Check Republic and Belgium.

At present the toads on sale in the UK which rely on a cable to apply the cars rear brakes do not comply with the RTA - Construction and use regulations. Much debate recently on RVOC about this. We have had all the regulations listed and regardless what some dealers will say they are not legal as they cannot be reversed and braked. It is not until you get to a fully automatic system do you get near sorting out the issues. But still not legal in europe.

Bob

hope you dont mind if i correct you on the above Bob...

a correctly fitted A frame operates ALL the brakes via the footbrake pedal, not the handbrake cable. :thumb:

if brakes are fitted then they ALL must work..

trailers/toads under 750kg do not require brakes but if fitted they too must work.

this also applies to motorbikes/trikes being towed on a towbar bracket.

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[johnp10]

This subject has been covered before and I conducted a few tests on our Mot brake rollers in response to that post
Brake efficiency is NOT effected by the lack of, or failure of power or vacuum assistance
Geo


AS I said, Jim, I'm not a technician.
That being the case I wont,unlike some on here, argue a point with a qualified person.

However, if there is no discernible effect on braking efficiency with / without a servo, what's the point of fitting and testing them in the first place?
Surely if the vehicle was type approved with a servo assisted braking system, it no longer Type / Ministers' Approval Cert if the system is inoperative?
I cant find in C&U anything that states clearly that toad type devices are or are not permitted.

Or am I wrong? are these toad devices properly type approved, or just the subject of wishful thinking?
Bearing in mind the manufacturer's verbal statement that it's legal is not type approval, it's sales patter.

To take the EU stance: If it dont say you cant, then you can.
To take the UK stance: If it dont say you can, then you cant.

Usually the way of things.

No axe to grind, just interested.

 

[pappajohn]

This subject has been covered before and I conducted a few tests on our Mot brake rollers in response to that post
Brake efficiency is NOT effected by the lack of, or failure of power or vacuum assistance
Geo


AS I said, Jim, I'm not a technician.
That being the case I wont,unlike some on here, argue a point with a qualified person.

However, if there is no discernible effect on braking efficiency with / without a servo, what's the point of fitting and testing them in the first place?
Surely if the vehicle was type approved with a servo assisted braking system, it no longer Type / Ministers' Approval Cert if the system is inoperative?
I cant find in C&U anything that states clearly that toad type devices are or are not permitted.

Or am I wrong? are these toad devices properly type approved, or just the subject of wishful thinking?
Bearing in mind the manufacturer's verbal statement that it's legal is not type approval, it's sales patter.

To take the EU stance: If it dont say you cant, then you can.
To take the UK stance: If it dont say you can, then you cant.

Usually the way of things.

No axe to grind, just interested.

braking efficiency and brake pedal effort...two totally different animals.

a none operative servo system will take considerably more brake pedal pressure to achieve the same efficiency.

the law states a certain brake efficiency percentage must be achieved....it doesnt say how to achieve it !

 

[vwalan]

hi, brakes on the wired aframes put the brakes on ok. servo.s just allow less pressure from your foot. the brakes have to have an automatic reverse system. a sliding hitch doesnt allow this by design. soarent really legal. air or hydraulic application with some systems are not controlled by the hitch but by the brake pedal in the towing vehicle.these systems are more likely to comply. even abroad. but if caught you have to be prepared to fight it all the way. use the dft. definition of fitting an aframe converts the toad into a trailer. i,m sure it would stand up in court. as to can you reverse one thats another issue. they can be reversed but how far and round corners again another issue.

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[johnp10]

braking efficiency and brake pedal effort...two totally different animals.

a none operative servo system will take considerably more brake pedal pressure to achieve the same efficiency.

the law states a certain brake efficiency percentage must be achieved....it doesnt say how to achieve it !

That's the point I made, John.
"Braking Efficiency" is measured as a percentage of the vehicles gross weight.(MAM, same thing.)
An efficiency of 50% is required, which doesnt mean the brakes only have to work half as well as normal, as hinted at earlier.
Can the "considerably more pressure" be exerted by an overrun cable to the footbrake pedal?
Just dont see how that can be achieved without the system's servo, thats all.

 

[pappajohn]

That's the point I made, John.
"Braking Efficiency" is measured as a percentage of the vehicles gross weight.(MAM, same thing.)
An efficiency of 50% is required, which doesnt mean the brakes only have to work half as well as normal, as hinted at earlier.
Can the "considerably more pressure" be exerted by an overrun cable to the footbrake pedal?
Just dont see how that can be achieved without the system's servo, thats all.

my point as well.....a servo system isnt designed to work without the servo operating.

the old pre servo systems had bigger master and wheel cylinder bores and a completely different master cyl to wheel cyl pressure ratio negating the need for assistance.....yet producing the same or similar efficiency.
fit a servo to an old pre servo car without changing anything else and you would lock the brakes every time you hit the pedal.

 

[slobadoberbob]

That is because of a certain VW owners claim..BUTTONS

Sorry to go off topic, but also on the Ken Bruce Show on Radio 2, they advocated towing the motorhome with your small car instead to save fuel "because some of those small cars will do 80mpg"!

Blame it on Buttons.. he makes these wild claims about his VW...

Bob:thumb:

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[slobadoberbob]

disagree Larry

Don't understand Bob, I have a Car a Tow A Frame with overrun brakes via a cable which links to the footbrake which obviously operate on all four wheels not just the rear brakes. As the servo is not operating there is a braking efficiency of around 50% which I understand meets legal requirements for braked trailers .
Reversing is difficult but is possible for a few yards with the overrun system allowing the wheels to run free.
My understanding from many threads on this subject is that this system is not illegal in the UK.

Larry

Disagree Larry.. you need to read the RTA and the construction and use regs.. Frank 550 covered it well on RVOC recently when we went all through the issue there..about a week back. Also read Micks post.


Bob

 

[slobadoberbob]

Larry they are not legal in the UK

John, I love my RV, have tugged a caravan before and would not go back. If a frames become illegal in the UK I will use my trailer for the toad. :thumb:

Larry

Larry you need to change your mind set... toads are not legal in the UK.... show me where in the RTA or the constructtion and use regs that say otherwise.

Bob

 

[johnp10]

Larry you need to change your mind set... toads are not legal in the UK.... show me where in the RTA or the constructtion and use regs that say otherwise.

Bob

They dont.
That's my point.
Not a RTA issue, but C&U Regs (1986, I beleive)

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[Xoxoc]

As I understand it our legal system is such that something is legal unless there is a law that makes it illegal.

Again, as I understand it the law here is based a lot on precedent. So once a court case decides that something is illegal based on the active legislation, then court cases that follow cite the first case as a precedent - it was illegal then, therefore it is now, sort of thing.

So, unless there has been a case before the courts you can interpret the rules, regs and legislation however you want. It is not illegal because no-one has said it is and tried someone for an offence.

Once they have, then all hell will break loose and a-frames will be worth less than a very cheap thing.


However...

Discussing them endlessly is tantamount to forcing some-ones hand. If YOU believe it to be legal, carry on. Stick your head above the parapet and you do no-one, including yourself, any favours.

 

[pappajohn]

Discussing them endlessly is tantamount to forcing some-ones hand. If YOU believe it to be legal, carry on. Stick your head above the parapet and you do no-one, including yourself, any favours.

something tells me you're just a little tired of A frame threads Bryan

 

[Geo]

I hope they do Ban em What I loose on me A frame I'll triple selling my trailer
Dont worry about Bryan's as his is An All American Blue Ox and that has protection under the bill of rights If questioned by the Spanish authorities he will simply take the 5th:thumb:

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[Larrynwin]

Larry you need to change your mind set... toads are not legal in the UK.... show me where in the RTA or the constructtion and use regs that say otherwise.

Bob

Bob I did not say they were legal, I said they were not illegal in the UK !

 

[vwalan]

but most aframes in use in the uk ARE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THE BRAKES ARENT AUTO REVERSE.
THATS WHAT MAKESTHEM ILLEGAL. unless used for recovery work. there are systems that do cover the braking requirements of trailers.

 

[slobadoberbob]

so what is the differance Larry?

Bob I did not say they were legal, I said they were not illegal in the UK !

Oh dear, here we go again.. if there is a Construction and use regulation (And SI - Statutory instrument which comes from an Act of parliment i.e a law.. in this case normally the Road Traffic Acts).. that is what makes an issue legal or not legal. The issue is complicated however.. lets try and make it simple.

The toad for the purpose of this exercise is classed as a trailer. Plenty of case law about what a trailer is or is not. A car being towed by another vehicle is a trailer in law.

A toad once it becomes a trailer it has to meet the requirements of the construction and use regulations that means it has to do what a trailer must do given it's weight ... no longer a small trailer that does not need brakes. It is classed as a normal trailer the same as mine or a caravan if you like.

What the 4 wheel trailer or caravan have is a set a brakes.. ok so does the toad. But when I want to reverse my trailer the overrun brakes disengage and allow the RV to push the trailer backwards.... when you stop in your toad the RV has stopped the trailer (read toad) and the tow ball nose is sitting hard on .. would be it just stopped your toad. As you try to reverse it the brakes on the trailer of toad are hard on due to the linkage fitted. So you cannot reverse it correctly. (that is the part of the construction regs that is USE... years ago caravan had a clip you could move on the tow unit so you could back them..had to keep getting in and out of the car on each reverse... They are not on toads as far as I am aware so nearly all toads cannot be used as intended with the construction and use regulations.

So no Larry it is not legal it is infact clearly illegal.

Going to Brians issues... law comes from an Act pasted down by Parliment such as the RTA 1968 and that has it's delgatated power to VOSA, DVLA and a few others in the form of SI's mentioned above. Court made law is when a case comes before the courts and the magistrate decides if the RTA laws or Si's have been broken. Just reinforces the law... if a magistrtaes fines someone for an offence the defendant has the right to appeal to the Crown Court by way of case stated.. ie mags court has to prove a case it relied on .. or an SI or Act of Parliment. The Crown court can be appealed to the Court of Appeal and so on.. the law may change with each appeal or not as the case may be. So the legal system is a little bit more complicated than you think.

But back to toads... or trailers as they should be discribed as they have 4 wheels on the road... there is ample law and cases about two wheels and dolly units .. at this time the toad is illegal to use in the UK as it does not meet the construction and use regulations when it is hooked up behind a motorhome.

Bob

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