diesel? (1 Viewer)

[chrisgreen]

if i run my motorhome on cheap supermarket diesel (sainburys)it run's like a bag of s**t,it wont pull it uses far more than it should.
now if i run the same motorhome on shell or esso diesel its fine and dont use as much.
if i run my car on supermarket diesel i dont notice any difference.
could this have somthing to do with the fact that the car is a all singing modern ECU controled diesel and the motorhome is non ECU??

chris

 

[Geo]

if i run my motorhome on cheap supermarket diesel (sainburys)it run's like a bag of s**t,it wont pull it uses far more than it should.
now if i run the same motorhome on shell or esso diesel its fine and dont use as much.
if i run my car on supermarket diesel i dont notice any difference.
could this have somthing to do with the fact that the car is a all singing modern ECU controled diesel and the motorhome is non ECU??

chris

Personaly i think it may have happend once or twice and it now happens because you expect it to:Sad:
It has been said and proven by tanker delivery men on here that there is no hard and fast rule that dictates what fuel you get from a supermarket, the same tanker could well have the nearest shell or esso station on its drop list
Tankers and fuel delivery companies swop fuel drops, ie you delivery to my customer 180 miles away down south and ill deliver to yours up here
It saves em Fueloh:
So really its pot luck
The sign over the fuel stop Shell etc indicates who owns/runs the station not what fuel your gauranteed to get
Geo
Ps I will add that some ask for and demand certain recipies/additives but over all the minimum standard is the minimum and all good, Try and get hold of some "Forte fuel treatment" it works wonders in slugish engines

 

[Jim]

Talking of Fuel Treatment Geo Could you bring some along to the Bring and Buy, I think my old Fiat would enjoy it.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[chrisgreen]

good reply geo thankyou.:thumb:
but i think i will leave the supermarket fuel well alone for the extra 2plt i will use our local shell fuel as it pulls better and gets alot more to the gallon.

chris

 

[Terry]

Hi Chris we have a fuel depot about 10 mls away and I can vouch for what Geo says--all the tankers Que up to fill up from the same pot so to speak.When you pass you see all the names on the tankers Tesco morry,s bp esso etc
terry

 

[chrisgreen]

Hi Chris we have a fuel depot about 10 mls away and I can vouch for what Geo says--all the tankers Que up to fill up from the same pot so to speak.When you pass you see all the names on the tankers Tesco morry,s bp esso etc
terry

terry that means nothing they might fillup from the same pot but is the mix the same?
if tesco ask for additives to put init they do it at the push of a button not a different pot so to speak.
bp openly advertise that there fuel will return better mpg.
and shell optimax is a differant fuel all together and i cant see them sending out a tanker to a filling station with just optimax.
the base product might be the same but its what they put init at the pot is different.
i have seen it at hamble all the different wagons going in and out
all i know is my MH dont like sainburys diesel.
if i was a numty that know naff all about motors i would but it down to me and my driveing style but its not me or my driveing style,its that the diesel is different.


chris

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Geo]

Talking of Fuel Treatment Geo Could you bring some along to the Bring and Buy, I think my old Fiat would enjoy it.

Sorry Jim not doing the bring and buy, had most things booked by the time it was anounced this year,and will be preparing for our two week annual, very disapointed as it now one of the not to miss classics
I usualy carry a bottle or two so ask me next time we meet, Malvern possibly
Or anyone going thats local to me can pick one up for you:thumb:
One has your name on it anyhoo
Geo

 

[Terry]

terry that means nothing they might fillup from the same pot but is the mix the same?
if tesco ask for additives to put init they do it at the push of a button not a different pot so to speak.
bp openly advertise that there fuel will return better mpg.
and shell optimax is a differant fuel all together and i cant see them sending out a tanker to a filling station with just optimax.
the base product might be the same but its what they put init at the pot is different.
i have seen it at hamble all the different wagons going in and out
all i know is my MH dont like sainburys diesel.
if i was a numty that know naff all about motors i would but it down to me and my driveing style but its not me or my driveing style,its that the diesel is different.


chris

Hi Chris yes they can add additives- no doubt they do to the mix but how many times have you seen a multi drop ? They cannot partition the tankers so although Esso etc may add the bits in others may benefit
terry

 

[Tony Santara]

Tankers may well fill up at one loading point but that does'nt mean it's loading from the same storage tank.
Loading can from a tank 3 hundred yards away and it is common practice for a customer to have there own dedicated storage tank at "tank farms" And I have been told supermarkets do buy the cheaper option of fuel

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[rainbow chasers]

Tankers do have seperated tanks. There are usually between 6-8 on most tankers.

Premium branded fuels are seperated from budget, but the confusion lays in who owns the stations - as many supermarkets have bought petrol stations from the fuel compaies, though the fuel companies still supply them with fuel.

For example, Somerfield purchased all fuel stations owned by Texaco, but Texaco still supply the fuel - so no matter if the tanker has Texaco or Somerfield on the side, it is Texaco fuel. This is similar with many other brands.

Some supermarket chains do not have these deals, so buy budget fuels, which may not have the additives and lubricants, or are reclaimed fuels, which means though they are fine, you may burn more to run. The reclaimed fuel may well have the additives, but pot luck on the quality.

At the end of the day, as Geo says, it is a gamble as to what you get - there are no hard or fast rules. There is little profit in fuel, and as prices rise, you supermarket will do as you expect of them - and find the cheapest option.

Some vehicles may respond to certain mixtures better, only you can work it out and make a decision on what brand you buy.

 

[paulmold]

Just for those that may be interested, Tesco are selling Redex Diesel Injector cleaner (and the petrol version) at half price at the moment, making it £2 a bottle which treats 2 tankfuls so it costs £1 per tank to clean your injectors. It also raises the cetane value of the fuel which I think means it burns better as well.

 

[Viennese]

Diesel for Symphony

Hi Paul

I have a diesel Symphony (1998) - would it benefit from a fuel treatment?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Terry]

Tankers do have seperated tanks. There are usually between 6-8 on most tankers.

Premium branded fuels are seperated from budget, but the confusion lays in who owns the stations - as many supermarkets have bought petrol stations from the fuel compaies, though the fuel companies still supply them with fuel.

For example, Somerfield purchased all fuel stations owned by Texaco, but Texaco still supply the fuel - so no matter if the tanker has Texaco or Somerfield on the side, it is Texaco fuel. This is similar with many other brands.

Some supermarket chains do not have these deals, so buy budget fuels, which may not have the additives and lubricants, or are reclaimed fuels, which means though they are fine, you may burn more to run. The reclaimed fuel may well have the additives, but pot luck on the quality.

At the end of the day, as Geo says, it is a gamble as to what you get - there are no hard or fast rules. There is little profit in fuel, and as prices rise, you supermarket will do as you expect of them - and find the cheapest option.

Some vehicles may respond to certain mixtures better, only you can work it out and make a decision on what brand you buy.

That explains a lot :thumb: One of our local stations is independent and gets all sorts of tankers filling it up Probably who offers the cheapest deal of the day
terry

 

[pappajohn]

Hi Chris yes they can add additives- no doubt they do to the mix but how many times have you seen a multi drop ? They cannot partition the tankers so although Esso etc may add the bits in others may benefit
terry

Since when ?

the tankers that delivered to the garage where i worked were partitioned into possible 4 different tanks, one of which would be diesel.

the driver would 'dispense' the fuel to the four different underground tanks (1 diesel, 3 petrol, throwback to the days of star rated fuel) via different hoses and would dip each of the four truck tanks in turn both before and after delivery.

 

[paulmold]

Hi Paul

I have a diesel Symphony (1998) - would it benefit from a fuel treatment?

I think depends on the mileage. Varnish and gum clogs injectors so if high(ish) miles it may well benefit.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[bernardfeay]

how many drops

I don't know the answer to this question but i'm convinced the tankers don't do that many drops on one run. I think they weigh 38 tons which means about 600 fill ups in total per load. I'd be amazed if my local tesco did less than 600 tank fulls per day.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Geo hits the nail on the head.

With standard fuels they are all basically the same brew of components as the EN590 spec (and EN228 for gasolines) doesn't leave a lot of latitude for varying the key components if you want the sell the fuel as legal and actually make a little money. It is all in the basic chemistry.

The fuel companies all add their different additives (at ppm level) to improve "performance" which is a different context to "oomph" . Additives are in there to improve lubricity (since they took the sulphur out) in gasoline, fuel stability, anti foaming etc etc. The vast majority of the fuel supplied into the UK is made up of blended components purchased from all over the place and blended up in a refinery or terminal according to requirements. The macro brew is the same, the micro brew might (repeat might) be a bit different but not much.

The bottom line is that (sorry to say this - and with apologies to the OP ) I do get a bit bored when someone writes that the never buy supermarket petrol/diesel etc as it is rubbish and ruins their engine/doesn't go etc etc as they are essentially buying the same stuff, usually from the same storage tanks. There just isn't the ability to vary the basic components by a significant amount and be legal/make a profit.

Supefuels such as SHell optimax are different - they all exceed the spec at a higher price and at a higher profit margin so there is the capability to make it different, but boy do you pay through the nose for it. Shell Optimax is a synthetic fuel, based of GTL (gas to liquid) technology.

On a final note, before everyone nods off, none of the majors make money out of selling fuel. It is nowadays almost a by-product of the process; they make a fortune getting the money out of the ground and trading it - not running gas stations. This is why most majors are divesting their refineries which might make money one year in three and also expose them to huge extra risk (safety, legislative etc) and leaving it to specialists with a lower cost base who are prepared to take on the risk. They have enough risk upstream as it is (BP anyone?). Many branded fuel stations in UK are run as franchise operations.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

 

[Terry]

Since when ?

the tankers that delivered to the garage where i worked were partitioned into possible 4 different tanks, one of which would be diesel.

the driver would 'dispense' the fuel to the four different underground tanks (1 diesel, 3 petrol, throwback to the days of star rated fuel) via different hoses and would dip each of the four truck tanks in turn both before and after delivery.

RC had already pointed this out to me John Since then I have spoken to a tanker driver and he tells me they can add stuff as it is being put into the tanks ie same fuel different additives :Cool:
terry

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[chrisgreen]

Geo hits the nail on the head.

With standard fuels they are all basically the same brew of components as the EN590 spec (and EN228 for gasolines) doesn't leave a lot of latitude for varying the key components if you want the sell the fuel as legal and actually make a little money. It is all in the basic chemistry.

The fuel companies all add their different additives (at ppm level) to improve "performance" which is a different context to "oomph" . Additives are in there to improve lubricity (since they took the sulphur out) in gasoline, fuel stability, anti foaming etc etc. The vast majority of the fuel supplied into the UK is made up of blended components purchased from all over the place and blended up in a refinery or terminal according to requirements. The macro brew is the same, the micro brew might (repeat might) be a bit different but not much.

The bottom line is that (sorry to say this - and with apologies to the OP ) I do get a bit bored when someone writes that the never buy supermarket petrol/diesel etc as it is rubbish and ruins their engine/doesn't go etc etc as they are essentially buying the same stuff, usually from the same storage tanks. There just isn't the ability to vary the basic components by a significant amount and be legal/make a profit.

Supefuels such as SHell optimax are different - they all exceed the spec at a higher price and at a higher profit margin so there is the capability to make it different, but boy do you pay through the nose for it. Shell Optimax is a synthetic fuel, based of GTL (gas to liquid) technology.

On a final note, before everyone nods off, none of the majors make money out of selling fuel. It is nowadays almost a by-product of the process; they make a fortune getting the money out of the ground and trading it - not running gas stations. This is why most majors are divesting their refineries which might make money one year in three and also expose them to huge extra risk (safety, legislative etc) and leaving it to specialists with a lower cost base who are prepared to take on the risk. They have enough risk upstream as it is (BP anyone?). Many branded fuel stations in UK are run as franchise operations.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

seems im not alone??
and this is just googleing (sainburys diesel)
as i said supermark fuel is pants
im off to the bring and buy in about an hour, need fuel so going to fill up with shell vmax.

http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66869&start=0
Link Removed
Link Removed
Link Removed
Link Removed
Link Removed



chris

 

[DuxDeluxe]

You're entitled to your opinion based on your own feeling of what is right and what is not right, as are all the others who have the same feelings and thoughts. It is a free country, after all. Plus I did apologise in advance for telling you some facts that you did not necessarily want to hear.

My posting was based on fact and science plus 27 years knowlege of the detailed analysis of fuels that my company carry out not only in UK but in almost every country in the world, including our leading global specialist gasoline lab in Speyer, Germany where we test road fuels for most car manufacturers, but then again, who am I to say what is right and wrong.

You can spend your money on V-max if you want (it is a good fuel); meanwhile, I will fill up my Chevy Impala with the cheapest I can find (I'm in Houston at the moment - Valero looks about right) and when I get home I'll torture my mercedes with Asda's finest, or Tesco's if it is cheaper and treat my 'van with the same contempt in the certain knowledge that I will not be able to tell the difference and it will cause no damage whatsoever to my engine which will still develop 204/157 HP respectively.

As I said it is a free country. I just wish I had a fiver for every forum post that says that supermarket fuel is rubbish. It isn't and I'd be a rich man.

Consider this........ have a look in your handbook for each of your vehicles and tell me what is says about the fuel quality that you should use when filling your vehicle. In fact don't bother, I'll tell you (unless you have a Porsche or something exotic/highly tuned) It is EN590 for Diesel and EN228 for Gasoline. Now look at the pump when you next don't go to Sainsbury's and see what it says about the quality of the fuel that is dispensed. It says the same..... as the Americans out here say, "go figure"

One thing I would mention - fuels do deteriorate over time, particularly fuels with a bio component, which are susceptible to oxidation and the dreaded bacterial contamination which has a wonderful effect on filters (you should see some of the marine engine filters sometimes) and a vehicle left standing for a length of time may suffer performance issues connected with fuel deterioration. I would suggest that you try running a bottle of FORTE fuel treatment through the engine - it has received anecdotal good reports and is well thought of in the garage business. I treated my last van with the same as a precautionary measure as it wasn't used much.

It is a good discussion but no-one will ever convince someone connected with the fuel industry that supermarket fuel is not of an acceptable quality for everyday use. If the supermarket fuel was as bad as the forum gainsayers say it is then I would ask three questions:

1) Why have the supermarket fuel suppliers not had legal action brought against them for selling goods not of a merchantable quality from at least a few of the millions of people that fill up every week from them?
2) Why has the unsuitable fuel not had consistent and protracted press coverage and the subsequent investigations and prosecutions by trading standards for selling the same
3) Why have the supermarkets fuel operations not gone out of business due to lack of trade (let's face it, they are only a penny or two cheaper) caused by poor quality fuels and no-one buying it. Millions of people simply cannot be wrong

You alrady know the answer and as above I would suggest looking at the useage profile of your van and perhaps treat the fuel accordingly to prevent problems

Case rested m'lud. Have a great weekend - and please don't take it personally.

 

[darklord]

The vehicles ecu DOES iron out some of the differences between fuels qualities, its designed to do that across countries and continents, not just filling stations. A vehicle without an ECU will SLIGHTLY notice a difference, but to be honest, that COULD be more down to how the engine is set up, rather than it being able to detect a slight difference between tescos and shell.
All engines are "tuned" to a compromise, being able to then properly tune the vehicle to its use and the fuel available, is where the power increases and fuel savings lie. It takes a little investigating, and the benefit of some expertise...not just a "piggy back box" bought at a MH show, than can, and will, only do one of the several things needed, but it is possible to release better fuel efficiency, and unlock a bit more power. Its worth noting though, that much like a gas conversion on a petrol car, if you only look at how soon your investment is going to be repaid, then best you leave well alone, and put up with the vagaries of petrol station supply and prices.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ourcampersbeentrashed]

to be quite honest the quality of diesel where ever you go isnt that great xxxxxxxx

and so expensive tooo

and thats forgetting your vehicle has to be LEZ compliant xxxxx

 

[motorvating]

Having once been a tanker driver pulling from the Kingsbury terminal I found that there is a difference in additives.

Fuel is purchased by a company, and they then add their additives, or they pay for them to be added to the fuel.

Premium fuel had more additives for cleaning the fuel system and lubricating the engine, whilst the cheap fuel has less of these additives.

If you are using the cheap fuel you are not going to notice any difference as the life of modern engines is so long nowadays, but it is said the cheap fuels will shorten the life of the engine, but when you are talking about very long mileages, I don't suppose it matters.

I have a highly customised diesel PT Cruiser, with plenty of performance modifications to increase power, and you definitely notice the difference in acceleration with premium fuel because the octane levels are slightly higher, but on a work horse engine with default configuration, I seriously doubt that you will notice any difference.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Yes, you're right. I think I also mentioned it but in a slightly different way. The additives are different from brand to brand but are really the only variable and are in very small quantities - the Shell fuel saver campaign is a good example where they put a few bits into a blend and manage to make a fuel that allegedly gives better MPG - no matter that it is statistically insignificant (in other words, don't bother, you won't notice a saving of one litre per tank - 2% .........)

With your PT cruiser, I am assuming that you use a higher octane rated fuel, such as Shell V-power (my favorite, simply because it is synthetic GTL and they made a bit more of an effort) which is designed to be used in highly tuned engines. Indeed if I had that car or something similar, that is the type of fuel that I would use all the time.

Additives are usually injected in-line either during blending into tank or sometimes a bit further down the supply chain and are very controlled - they are expensive. An example of it going spectacularly wrong is the Tesco incident of a few years ago - an anti foaming additive was accidentally injected during the blending process and the resultant fuel was distributed to about 180 stations, with oxygen sensors failing all over the place. To their credit, the company concerned (it was not only Tesco that used that blend - a number of other companies did as well - which kinda proves my original point) took rapid corrective action after discovering the problem and - certainly in my brother's case, paid up quickly. noted that this sort of incident could have happened with any company's fuel as it was an error that caused the problem in the first place

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}