Info re Aframe prosecutions (1 Viewer)

Canoworms

Free Member
Feb 17, 2011
1
0
Staffordshire
Funster No
15,344
MH
A class Eura 810
Exp
Since 1995
To all Users Of “A”Frames

I am writing to gather information on the subject of people being stopped by Guardia Civil in Spain when towing a car on an “A” frame. Now before anyone groans about old chestnuts and the subject having been talked to death I will state that I am not out to provoke more argument and furthermore I am not scaremongering.
In the last few months I have had knowledge, backed up by evidence, of four persons who have been stopped and have, depending on which legislation used by the Guardia Civil, been fined amounts ranging from sixty to five hundred euros !!( These are discounted to forty two and two hundred and fifty respectively on the spot but the big one still hurts)
I have been studying in depth various Spanish Regulations,European Law and Conventions relating to the subject and come to a conclusion that there may…just may be a way forward to a satisfactory conclusion.
I need statistics backed up by hard evidence ie. details of as many “tickets” as possible. I don’t need personal details just a scan of the ticket showing the bar code and expediente number, precepto infrigido, lugar de denuncia and all details as far down as the reg. no. of the vehicle. ( If you have one of these you will recognise the Spanish.) Alternatively you can scan the whole ticket blocking out your personal details. Also if you have contested or appealed the ticket I would appreciate details of the resultant communication from the authorities.( again you can obliterate personal details if you wish).Finally were you allowed to continue having separated the tow or threatened with the car being impounded.
I am in Spain for the next few months and hope to collate the details to prove a few points to the authorities personally. I’m a private individual with an “A”frame so I do have a vested interest.

Thank you in anticipation,
Julian Boden e-mail freebears@gmx.com Tel. 0034 610 659 151
 

Snowbird

LIFE MEMBER
Apr 24, 2009
11,818
22,345
Liverpool.
Funster No
6,422
MH
Fifth wheel.
Exp
Since 11-05-2000
Just maybe none have actualy had a fine...they know somone that has.:winky:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Xabia

Free Member
Jan 20, 2011
1,186
821
Rural Nottinghamshire and Spain
Funster No
15,031
MH
A Class
Exp
Since 1996
Have a look on facts, thread entitled A frame ban in Spain, page 23, member called Loddy fined 40 euros, has posted copy of paperwork for info.
 

Loddy

Free Member
Jul 5, 2008
171
3
south west
Funster No
3,182
MH
RV C class
Exp
4+ 30 years tugging
Loddy is allowed on here

Loddy

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Snowbird

LIFE MEMBER
Apr 24, 2009
11,818
22,345
Liverpool.
Funster No
6,422
MH
Fifth wheel.
Exp
Since 11-05-2000
Well we have bumped it for a few days now and no takers so can only presume its another Aframe myth:winky:
 
Nov 12, 2010
149
83
Northamptonshire
Funster No
14,422
MH
Hi Top
Exp
5 Years
Towing in Spain

I live part time in Spain and have done for the past 10 years. It is illegal to tow a vehicle in Spain with its wheels in contact with the ground. Hence all recovery vehicles here are those which load the car on to the bed of the recovery vehicle and not the tow variety; it has been known for fines to be imposed just for carrying a tow rope.
A further word of warning, due to the economic climate here fines have become a major part of the Guadia's funding, yes they keep the fines!:Sad:

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Snowbird

LIFE MEMBER
Apr 24, 2009
11,818
22,345
Liverpool.
Funster No
6,422
MH
Fifth wheel.
Exp
Since 11-05-2000
I live part time in Spain and have done for the past 10 years. It is illegal to tow a vehicle in Spain with its wheels in contact with the ground. Hence all recovery vehicles here are those which load the car on to the bed of the recovery vehicle and not the tow variety; it has been known for fines to be imposed just for carrying a tow rope.
A further word of warning, due to the economic climate here fines have become a major part of the Guadia's funding, yes they keep the fines!:Sad:
But have YOU actualy had a fine??????
 

MicknPat

Free Member
Dec 16, 2007
614
3,606
Touring UK
Funster No
1,030
MH
39ft American A class RV
Exp
Since Oct 2007
I recall some months ago reading on a forum (cannot recall which one) a Brit who was stopped and fined for using an A frame and challenged it (not sure if it was with British or European court) and got his money back, anyone else reading it?

On reading all of the hearsay stories of persons getting stopped and fined I also ask for those persons to come forward and say exactly what happened and what paperwork they were issued with....................just like Canoworms I'm still waiting.:Sad:
 

Loddy

Free Member
Jul 5, 2008
171
3
south west
Funster No
3,182
MH
RV C class
Exp
4+ 30 years tugging
this a letter stating I have 10 days to appeal
 

Attachments

  • lletter from spain.jpg
    lletter from spain.jpg
    45.4 KB · Views: 72
  • img018.jpg
    img018.jpg
    82.3 KB · Views: 56

Snowbird

LIFE MEMBER
Apr 24, 2009
11,818
22,345
Liverpool.
Funster No
6,422
MH
Fifth wheel.
Exp
Since 11-05-2000
this a letter stating I have 10 days to appeal
Thanks for that Loddy...I cant get it up enough to read it or translate it.
Are you taking it to appeal????.
I know its a difficult procedure but am sure its worth it in the long run...at least it will set a president for others.
Have appealed a few times against different fines in France and Germany and only lost one...it was my fault and I know I was pushing my luck.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Loddy

Free Member
Jul 5, 2008
171
3
south west
Funster No
3,182
MH
RV C class
Exp
4+ 30 years tugging
Thanks for that Loddy...I cant get it up enough to read it or translate it.
Are you taking it to appeal????.
I know its a difficult procedure but am sure its worth it in the long run...at least it will set a president for others.
Have appealed a few times against different fines in France and Germany and only lost one...it was my fault and I know I was pushing my luck.

No I don't think so, It took more than 10 days to arrive so that will complicate things.
As I said before a €40 fine for a couple of years and 10,000 miles of touring is not bad value. And of course my Spanish is Poco

Loddy
 
Nov 12, 2010
149
83
Northamptonshire
Funster No
14,422
MH
Hi Top
Exp
5 Years
Grounds for Appeal

Thanks for that Loddy...I cant get it up enough to read it or translate it.
Are you taking it to appeal????.
I know its a difficult procedure but am sure its worth it in the long run...at least it will set a president for others.
Have appealed a few times against different fines in France and Germany and only lost one...it was my fault and I know I was pushing my luck.

I am fascinated to know what the grounds would be for such an appeal? Please enlighten me so that I can use it if I need :Smile:
 

Snowbird

LIFE MEMBER
Apr 24, 2009
11,818
22,345
Liverpool.
Funster No
6,422
MH
Fifth wheel.
Exp
Since 11-05-2000
:Smile:
I am fascinated to know what the grounds would be for such an appeal? Please enlighten me so that I can use it if I need :Smile:
Without getting into the great Aframe debate...which has been thrashed to death.
Surely if its allowed in country of origin...its allowed in any other member state.
I think most Aframers carry the written laws in each language with them,I know I do...but must admit have NEVER been stopped in 11 years of very extensive touring from the Nordcap down to the Sahara,all towing Aframes.:Smile:
Having said that have been stoped plenty of times to show papers...but am not stupid enough to think that's all they wanted to look at.
They always had a good look at the Aframe...just out of curiosity to see how it worked.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

keith

Free Member
Aug 25, 2007
3,421
1,864
Ecclefechan
Funster No
168
MH
Autocruise Starseeker
Exp
Caravaning since 1974 - Motorhoming since 2003
:Smile:
Without getting into the great Aframe debate...which has been thrashed to death.
Surely if its allowed in country of origin...its allowed in any other member state.

I have never understood how we can ignore the rules of other countries when talking about A-frames but not other rules. We all carry 2 warning triangles and yellow vests which are not needed in the UK, but are required in other countries, but when it comes to A-frames we say it doesn't apply to us from the UK because we don't stop people using them. Even our speed limits are different but we don't assume we are exempt from them when driving in other countries.
 

david and ann

Free Member
Jan 3, 2009
96
8
Sax Alicante
Funster No
5,281
MH
coachbuilt
Exp
7 years
To all Users Of “A”Frames

I am writing to gather information on the subject of people being stopped by Guardia Civil in Spain when towing a car on an “A” frame. Now before anyone groans about old chestnuts and the subject having been talked to death I will state that I am not out to provoke more argument and furthermore I am not scaremongering.
In the last few months I have had knowledge, backed up by evidence, of four persons who have been stopped and have, depending on which legislation used by the Guardia Civil, been fined amounts ranging from sixty to five hundred euros !!( These are discounted to forty two and two hundred and fifty respectively on the spot but the big one still hurts)
I have been studying in depth various Spanish Regulations,European Law and Conventions relating to the subject and come to a conclusion that there may…just may be a way forward to a satisfactory conclusion.
I need statistics backed up by hard evidence ie. details of as many “tickets” as possible. I don’t need personal details just a scan of the ticket showing the bar code and expediente number, precepto infrigido, lugar de denuncia and all details as far down as the reg. no. of the vehicle. ( If you have one of these you will recognise the Spanish.) Alternatively you can scan the whole ticket blocking out your personal details. Also if you have contested or appealed the ticket I would appreciate details of the resultant communication from the authorities.( again you can obliterate personal details if you wish).Finally were you allowed to continue having separated the tow or threatened with the car being impounded.
I am in Spain for the next few months and hope to collate the details to prove a few points to the authorities personally. I’m a private individual with an “A”frame so I do have a vested interest.

Thank you in anticipation,
Julian Boden e-mail freebears@gmx.com Tel. 0034 610 659 151
Hola
As far as i know the Guardia Civil have to accept an a frame on an English plated "bus" cos its still legal in England. We have a Spanish reg. Benimar and live over here and have been told that its illegal for us to fit an a frame to a Spanish vehicle. But an English van Should have no probs. Not sure whats happening to the people your quoting cos see many non- spanish motorhomes towing cars with A frame. Will be very interesting to see final results
 

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,078
8,983
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
I have never understood how we can ignore the rules of other countries when talking about A-frames but not other rules. We all carry 2 warning triangles and yellow vests which are not needed in the UK, but are required in other countries, but when it comes to A-frames we say it doesn't apply to us from the UK because we don't stop people using them. Even our speed limits are different but we don't assume we are exempt from them when driving in other countries.

That is how I see see it, as you point out, there are many different rules and regulations between EU member states which visitors from the UK must obey .. the most obvious is driving on the right .. don't see many challenging that one :Doh:

The other important thing to remember, in Spain things are illegal until made Legal .. whereas in the UK things are not illegal until a law is passed..
In the UK, A frames are not illegal but have never been made legal and to date, this has not been tested in a court of law, so there are no grounds for an appeal if fined in Spain.

In this country/commonwealth/USA most things are legal unless legislated against; in Napoleonic based law (most of the rest of the EU) the opposite applies i.e. every situation has to be specifically legislated for or its probably illegal!

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Last edited:

lookback

Free Member
Nov 30, 2007
142
27
Mareham le fen, Lincs
Funster No
942
MH
Caravan
Exp
5 years
"The other important thing to remember, in Spain things are illegal until made Legal .. whereas in the UK things are not illegal until a law is passed..
In the UK, A frames are not illegal but have never been made legal and to date, this has not been tested in a court of law, so there are no grounds for an appeal if fined in Spain."

Stop waffling Scotjimland!. I have an A Frame and will continue to use it regardless of the barrack room lawyer opinions of yourself!


Ian
 

chatter

Free Member
Aug 3, 2009
3,689
937
cheshire
Funster No
7,812
MH
5th wheel
Exp
10+
You are entitled to your opinion Lookback and to use an Aframe if you wish I hope you dont drive in flipflops as well. Scotjimland is quite right in what he says it is a grey area here and has not been tested through the courts and the spannish powers that be will know this. I know i would not be brave enough to argue with a guardia national about it - guardia civil (local town policeman)on the other hand are much more approachable

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,078
8,983
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
Stop waffling Scotjimland!. I have an A Frame and will continue to use it regardless of the barrack room lawyer opinions of yourself!


Ian

Sorry if my post sounded like waffle Ian, and you are correct I am not a lawyer, but it's not my opinion, it is that of DfT .. who say that the use of A-frames is deemed to not be illegal in the UK providing that the complete system meets trailer regulations. This has not been tested in a UK court.

I had an A frame and was perfectly happy that it was safe and not illegal in the UK but would not tow abroad simply because my wife cannot drive, so in the event of being stopped, fined and told to un-hitch would have had to have abandon the car .. a risk I wasn't prepared to take..

You know the Spanish law on towing cars, and have read others testimony of being fined in Spain ... you can make an informed choice and have an opinion without resorting to name calling

The OP asked that this not to develop into a debate, he was simply looking for first hand evidence of being stopped and fined in Spain for using an A Frame, this has been provided by Loddy.
 

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,078
8,983
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
Chapter and verse from DfT

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel: 0870 600 5522
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk
Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop
Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:
Link Removed

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.


Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport


Forthcoming Legislation

(24/9/2010)
The current European Type Approval legislation for trailers, 71/320/EEC, is due to be rescinded in 2014 and replaced by UN ECE Regulation 13. Part of this Regulation (section 5.2.2.2) stipulates that inertia braking systems will only be permitted on centre axle trailers. This may mean that it will no longer be possible to use inertia braking systems on A-frames.

At the moment it is unclear how this change will be interpreted with regard to A-frames. This type of legislation change is not normally retrospective so A-frames currently in use should not be affected, however it is possible that the Department for Transport may take a different view.

The next question that arises is how does type approval apply in the case of a car on an A-Frame? Obviously the car will be type approved in it's own right, but what happens when it is converted into a trailer by the addition of an A-frame? It may be that it will be the original supplier/fitter of the A-Frame who will need to ensure that the braking of the combined unit of car + A-frame conforms to UN ECE Regulation 13 for any A-frames supplied or fitted after this regulation comes into force. However, until the DfT make a decision it would be unwise to make any assumptions!

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top