Permanent Wired Inverter (1 Viewer)

[haganap]

Hi all (especially hilldweller and papajohn, Right up your street)

I am going to wire an inverter in to my van. For those that helped on the previous thread of mine about the failure of the inverter to charge the laptop, thank you all very much for your funster help. However the answer was,,,,, give yourselves a pat on the back if you said simply that the Inverter was not up to the job, and too small. I know not why but that was the answer. Checked with a bigger inverter no problems charging in any condition.

SO moving on. I have now purchased off a member here (thanks Gary) a 1.2 kw inverter for Nikkis hair. (its a low power hairdryer) which of course will meet all my other needs...... here is my current set up.....

2x 85w batteries.
i 80w solar panel (currently giving 2.9amps) (posh regulator says so.)
And of course for those skiing times and wild camping for anything longer than a couple of days the trusty 1kw red honda whisper quiet generator. ah bliss.


So with the telephone help from Ash I am going to install my Inverter and wonder if anyone has any simple diagrammes? I want it wired to be constant in that when on, all the sockets in the van will be live.

Im sort of sure how it goes and understand the relay behind the 230v but simplicity is the answer, in diagrammes. or simple words.

TIA
paul

 

[slobadoberbob]

try and help a bit

Hi all (especially hilldweller and papajohn, Right up your street)

I am going to wire an inverter in to my van. For those that helped on the previous thread of mine about the failure of the inverter to charge the laptop, thank you all very much for your funster help. However the answer was,,,,, give yourselves a pat on the back if you said simply that the Inverter was not up to the job, and too small. I know not why but that was the answer. Checked with a bigger inverter no problems charging in any condition.

SO moving on. I have now purchased off a member here (thanks Gary) a 1.2 kw inverter for Nikkis hair. (its a low power hairdryer) which of course will meet all my other needs...... here is my current set up.....

2x 85w batteries.
i 80w solar panel (currently giving 2.9amps) (posh regulator says so.)
And of course for those skiing times and wild camping for anything longer than a couple of days the trusty 1kw red honda whisper quiet generator. ah bliss.


So with the telephone help from Ash I am going to install my Inverter and wonder if anyone has any simple diagrammes? I want it wired to be constant in that when on, all the sockets in the van will be live.

Im sort of sure how it goes and understand the relay behind the 230v but simplicity is the answer, in diagrammes. or simple words.

TIA
paul

My generator sends its 230v (mine is a 110v as it is an American vehicle and I have a 4kw generator built in to the chassis the principle is the same even with 230/240v) to the batteries via a transformer (i.e steps it down to 12v bit like a model railway where you plug a 230 plug in to the mains and it comes out at 12v at the track) - the battery then sends it via the invertor i.e via the 12v batteries to the 230v sockets to be used by your appliances. My inverter has a battery charging facility (Sterling 1500 watt pure sin wave) built in so if I am connected to the mains it charges the battery and also allows the 230v sockets to be used. I use a switch to change over to the generator which then does the same thing. Van Bitz supplied and fitted my unit which works very well. Connected to the set up I have a NASA guage that tells me the state of my batteries and the charge or discharge rate in amps and volts and time left to charge or discharge.

Of course I can use the 230v sockets when not connected to the mains or to the generator as the inverter just draws 230v out of the batteries stepping it up in the oposite direction.

I hope that is clear. But you really need to have someone do the job who is qualified in electrics.

One question if you have a 1kw generator why not just have a plug go from the genny to a 230 socket in the van? If you are going to use the 12v via the Inverter I can understand the need for it.

I am always aware that if I am working on the 230v circuit on the van even when the power lead is disconnected from the van I must turn the Sterling off as it will deliver the 230v just the same as being connected to the mains. So be warned.

Bob

 

[Ralph-n-Bev]

Hiya Paul,
Ralph put ours on. Same time he did the solar panel . Dont have a clue about anything to do with it , at all oh:
Apart from it works:Blush:
But if no one else does you a diagram etc, I'm sure if you pm us your phone number , Ralph will give you a ring and tell you all you need to know.

BTW his latest toy is a wireless Modem from Three.co.uk ( Huawei E 585 ) It lets you connect up to 5 WI-FI enabled devices. So the laptop , Nintendo DSi , Ipod touch etc can all be on. Great when your stuck in on a wet evening when fed up of monopoly etc and rubbish TV. Kids love it:thumb:
AND we get peace
Bev

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[hilldweller]

I want it wired to be constant in that when on, all the sockets in the van will be live.
TIA
paul

Not quite as easy as you think. Bryan has been working on this for 2.4 years so far.

The gotcha, if you thought of just breaking the incoming mains is you might power up the on board charger from the inverter and that would be the coolest way to flatten a battery ever.

To conserve your batteries you want it off when not in use - probably.

So KISS and have one inverter socket so you know to turn it on when you use that socket and switch off as soon as you unplug that socket.

First thing to check is the quiescent current of the inverter, then you can judge whether it does need to be switched off when not needed.

 

[haganap]

My generator sends its 230v (mine is a 110v as it is an American vehicle and I have a 4kw generator built in to the chassis the principle is the same even with 230/240v) to the batteries via a transformer (i.e steps it down to 12v bit like a model railway where you plug a 230 plug in to the mains and it comes out at 12v at the track) - the battery then sends it via the invertor i.e via the 12v batteries to the 230v sockets to be used by your appliances. My inverter has a battery charging facility (Sterling 1500 watt pure sin wave) built in so if I am connected to the mains it charges the battery and also allows the 230v sockets to be used. I use a switch to change over to the generator which then does the same thing. Van Bitz supplied and fitted my unit which works very well. Connected to the set up I have a NASA guage that tells me the state of my batteries and the charge or discharge rate in amps and volts and time left to charge or discharge.

Erm, Ok I think that makes sense, but sounds slightly different in you RV.

Of course I can use the 230v sockets when not connected to the mains or to the generator as the inverter just draws 230v out of the batteries stepping it up in the oposite direction.
Thats the idea.

I hope that is clear. But you really need to have someone do the job who is qualified in electrics.
I have its by telephone though, but I will take my chances, after all Its an alternative to ECT.


One question if you have a 1kw generator why not just have a plug go from the genny to a 230 socket in the van? If you are going to use the 12v via the Inverter I can understand the need for it.
Dont really understand what your saying there. Of course I have a plug from the Genny, thats why I have one. Its just I want 1.2kw of power whilst wild camping a few days without having to take my honda

I am always aware that if I am working on the 230v circuit on the van even when the power lead is disconnected from the van I must turn the Sterling off as it will deliver the 230v just the same as being connected to the mains. So be warned.

thanks, thats worth knowing

Bob

Thanks Bob,

 

[haganap]

Not quite as easy as you think. Bryan has been working on this for 2.4 years so far.

The gotcha, if you thought of just breaking the incoming mains is you might power up the on board charger from the inverter and that would be the coolest way to flatten a battery ever.

To conserve your batteries you want it off when not in use - probably.

So KISS and have one inverter socket so you know to turn it on when you use that socket and switch off as soon as you unplug that socket.

First thing to check is the quiescent current of the inverter, then you can judge whether it does need to be switched off when not needed.

Brian , it cant be that difficult as so many have done it.? whys it taken Bryan 2.5 years to work out?

although reading your post again what your saying makes sense. In essence your saying that my inverter will draw power from the batteries yet at the same time be charging the batteries? is that right?

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[olley]

As Brian says the simplest is just a single socket wired direct to the inverter. If you want it wired to all the sockets, then some method of preventing the inverter and the genny/ehu being connected to the sockets at the sametime, and a means of turning the charger off, you will also have to remember to stop your fridge changing to 230v from gas.

I solved the first problem by running a wire from my inverter and plugging it directly into my ehu socket, that stops me having both connected at the sametime, and means the inverter can power all my sockets. I then fitted a switch to the charger so I can turn it off, and on the fridge I usually remember oh: to select gas instead of auto.

Olley

 

[JeanLuc]

Here is the simple solution - I put it in the downloads section. It refers to installing a small inverter powering a single socket, but the principle is the same for a bigger one. Just make sure you size the wires appropriately - there is a table in the document.

Link Removed it's about the fifth one down the list

Regarding wiring so that all the sockets are powered by the inverter, that's a more complicated task and beyond my capabilities. Clive Mott has written about it, but he puts a caveat in the paper that certain technical details have been left deliberately vague, because if you are competent to do it, you will know what they are and if not, you should not attempt the job.

http://www.motts.org/INVERTER.htm

Hope this helps.

Philip

 

[slobadoberbob]

what IU was saying is

Thanks Bob,

If you just want to camp wild a few times them you only have to connect the inverter to the batteries - a lot of inverters have a 230v plug face built in. If not you just take the out terminals to a 230 v plug socket. But make sure you have an inline switch as you do not want the 230v on all the time. The inverter it's self will draw power out of the battery if there is not a switch between the batteries and the inverter. I take it you will then charge the domestic batteries off your engine? or someother way like the generator?

Bob

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[haganap]

are Now its making sense. Thanks Olley.

So what you sort of done is this,

Inverter connected to your batteries,,, on the output socket, plug and in too the 230v socket, but then a switch on the internal charger to prevent it from charging the batteries through the inverter. All of a sudden its clicked.

 

[haganap]

If you just want to camp wild a few times them you only have to connect the inverter to the batteries - a lot of inverters have a 230v plug face built in. If not you just take the out terminals to a 230 v plug socket. But make sure you have an inline switch as you do not want the 230v on all the time. The inverter it's self will draw power out of the battery if there is not a switch between the batteries and the inverter. I take it you will then charge the domestic batteries off your engine? or someother way like the generator?

Bob

No Bob, its not as simple as that, trust me Im experienced enough in the realms of wild camping to have my reasons as to what I need to do.

No the batteries are charged via solar panel and my moving on.

 

[hilldweller]

http://www.motts.org/INVERTER.htm

Hope this helps.

Philip

Problem 1: Note a tiny 30A ( 360W ) feed to the inverter. It all goes up market when haggers changes this to 1200W = 100A+. Bigger wires and bigger relay 2.

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[olley]

are Now its making sense. Thanks Olley.

So what you sort of done is this,

Inverter connected to your batteries,,, on the output socket, plug and in too the 230v socket, but then a switch on the internal charger to prevent it from charging the batteries through the inverter. All of a sudden its clicked.

That's it :thumb: as an added bonus my inverter has a remote off/on switch which sterling supply, on like a telephone lead about 10metres long, I fitted it on the dash.

I did consider Clive's circuit, but it just seemed to much complication, when an easier, cheaper and 100% safe method was staring me in the face.

Its easier to do this on an RV as all the electrics including the EHU are in a locker, so I always connect up the inverter before we set of, so if the wife wants to boil the kettle/charge phones etc. she can.

Olley

 

[haganap]

That's it :thumb: as an added bonus my inverter has a remote off/on switch which sterling supply, on like a telephone lead about 10metres long, I fitted it on the dash.

I did consider Clive's circuit, but it just seemed to much complication, when an easier, cheaper and 100% safe method was staring me in the face.

Its easier to do this on an RV as all the electrics including the EHU are in a locker, so I always connect up the inverter before we set of, so if the wife wants to boil the kettle/charge phones etc. she can.

Olley

Now to just move that Idea on by a few little Nanoes. why Cant I wire it up inside the van at the 230v and go to a relay switch, between the two, Ie if I want the inverter to work switch to it, with another switch for the internal charger? This way I wont have a electric plug on the outside of the van when Im travelling but the inverter will work?

 

[olley]

Hi yes you could do this, personally I would use a manual change over switch, not a relay. If you intend to use a relay, then you need to use a circuit like Clive's, there's always a danger with a single relay that one of the contacts will stick, Clive's circuit contains more than one relay to prevent this.

Mixing ehu and inverter AC is not a good idea, I doubt your inverter would survive the meeting.

Olley

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[haganap]

Hi yes you could do this, personally I would use a manual change over switch, not a relay. If you intend to use a relay, then you need to use a circuit like Clive's, there's always a danger with a single relay that one of the contacts will stick, Clive's circuit contains more than one relay to prevent this.

Mixing ehu and inverter AC is not a good idea, I doubt your inverter would survive the meeting.

Olley

Thanks olley. thats what I thought, a switch would be better.:thumb:

 

[Wildman]

Paul there are a number of problems.
When on mains, a zig unit charges the batteries and fridge runs on 240V
could well be the same on a generator.
however when using an inverter ALL of your power needs come from the batteries. So you will not run the charger or the fridge. The easiest way is to run a second ring main giving you sockets where you want them powered only by the inverter. remembering to switch the inverter on ONLY when you specifically need it. Otherwise it eats up amp/hours sitting doing nowt.
As to using 240V to boil a kettle with an inverter it is a big no no. Flat batteries in no time. So keep it seperate, simple and safe.

 

[olley]

Something like this: Link Removed

Olley

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[Wildman]

you would still have the zig and fridge problem with a switch.

 

[gj1023]

Well Paul , the way it was wired in my van, was with a car battery ?? in the wardrobe, with the inverter attached. There was the infamous yellow cable attached to the inverter that went down and out the van. It then ran along the underside and up into the van behind the fridge, then into the cupboard below the sink. The Ehu wire was cut and six wires were wired into the spilt relay. The three earths were all wired into one , via a electrical block

With the help of Simann and PJ , I have rewired the Ehu wire back together and all works.

Hope you get it all sorted

Gary

 

[JJ]

My head hurts following this thread...

JJ

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[Ralph-n-Bev]

Hi all (especially hilldweller and papajohn, Right up your street)

I am going to wire an inverter in to my van. For those that helped on the previous thread of mine about the failure of the inverter to charge the laptop, thank you all very much for your funster help. However the answer was,,,,, give yourselves a pat on the back if you said simply that the Inverter was not up to the job, and too small. I know not why but that was the answer. Checked with a bigger inverter no problems charging in any condition.

SO moving on. I have now purchased off a member here (thanks Gary) a 1.2 kw inverter for Nikkis hair. (its a low power hairdryer) which of course will meet all my other needs...... here is my current set up.....

2x 85w batteries.
i 80w solar panel (currently giving 2.9amps) (posh regulator says so.)
And of course for those skiing times and wild camping for anything longer than a couple of days the trusty 1kw red Honda whisper quiet generator. ah bliss.


So with the telephone help from Ash I am going to install my Inverter and wonder if anyone has any simple diagrammes? I want it wired to be constant in that when on, all the sockets in the van will be live.

Im sort of sure how it goes and understand the relay behind the 230v but simplicity is the answer, in diagrammes. or simple words.

TIA
paul

Personally i think your mad Paul , trying to run a hair dryer off an inverter .
Why not use the Honda with an 800 watt hairdryer , thats what we do.
But then theres only Bev and Isabel that use the hairdryer , and then only every 4 or 5 days if away , not every day . we get out the Honda if not on hook up.
Infact thats all we ever seem to use the genny for drying bloody hairoh:
I'm sure other people on the forum will tell you that to run a 1.2 kw inverter off the batteries , will drain them in no time.
If you really do want to use that option you would be better off wiring direct to the vehicle battery and running the engine. But even using this method the alternator wouldn't keep up with a 1.2 kw inverter.
I.M.O anything over 1kw requires a large battery bank.
We use our 150w inverter for charging our camera batteries , phones , DVD players , and thats only if we dont have the 12 vault power leads.
I think inverters are handy to have in an emergency for back up power supply but thats about it.
Ralph:thumb:

 

[hilldweller]

I'm sure other people on the forum will tell you that to run a 1.2 kw inverter off the batteries , will drain them in no time.
Ralph:thumb:

If you insist.

And 85Ah battery is rated at something like a 10 hour rate, that is 8.5A and since you should only half discharge a standard battery make that 4.25A.

Once you hit 100A+ you will be down to (guess) 40Ah. But again 50% rule so 20Ah. 20Ah/100A=0.2h. 0.2 * 60 = 12 mins.

Best plan is tell Nikki that a shaved head is THE in look.

 

[haganap]

Personally i think your mad Paul , trying to run a hair dryer off an inverter .
Why not use the Honda with an 800 watt hairdryer , thats what we do.
But then theres only Bev and Isabel that use the hairdryer , and then only every 4 or 5 days if away , not every day . we get out the Honda if not on hook up.
Infact thats all we ever seem to use the genny for drying bloody hairoh:
I'm sure other people on the forum will tell you that to run a 1.2 kw inverter off the batteries , will drain them in no time.
If you really do want to use that option you would be better off wiring direct to the vehicle battery and running the engine. But even using this method the alternator wouldn't keep up with a 1.2 kw inverter.
I.M.O anything over 1kw requires a large battery bank.
We use our 150w inverter for charging our camera batteries , phones , DVD players , and thats only if we dont have the 12 vault power leads.
I think inverters are handy to have in an emergency for back up power supply but thats about it.
Ralph:thumb:

Hi Ralph and Thanks for the reply.
We do much different travelling to many. We rarely use sites and tend to be on the road every other day and the longest we stop is about 3 days.
During the summer months we are rarely in the van running appliances other than laptop charging and console charging. I have a solar panel which helps as well as of course when we drive the batteries get charged.
In the winter when we are off skiing, we often stop for a night or two on the way down so being able to flick the switch to do some things is handy.
Many use inverters this way, especially those that wild camp. some even use them with x3 solar panels and bigger battery packs to make them completely self sufficient.
Yes I have a generator, but if Nikki thinks im going to get out at 10pm on a cold wet winters night to get it out and fire it up then she's mistaken.

As said when we met there is a huge difference between ways of wild camping and using sites, neither is wrong and we sometimes do both, but, the more self sufficient you can be and become the more options you have. :thumb:

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[Ralph-n-Bev]

Hi Ralph and Thanks for the reply.
We do much different travelling to many. We rarely use sites and tend to be on the road every other day and the longest we stop is about 3 days.
During the summer months we are rarely in the van running appliances other than laptop charging and console charging. I have a solar panel which helps as well as of course when we drive the batteries get charged.
In the winter when we are off skiing, we often stop for a night or two on the way down so being able to flick the switch to do some things is handy.
Many use inverters this way, especially those that wild camp. some even use them with x3 solar panels and bigger battery packs to make them completely self sufficient.
Yes I have a generator, but if Nikki thinks im going to get out at 10pm on a cold wet winters night to get it out and fire it up then she's mistaken.

As said when we met there is a huge difference between ways of wild camping and using sites, neither is wrong and we sometimes do both, but, the more self sufficient you can be and become the more options you have. :thumb:

Paul we have only ever used EHU for 1 week since having our MH.

We rally most weekends , through out the year. We used the same set up for 7 years with the caravans we have had in the past too.
We have a 85watt Kyocera solar panel and 2 x 6v Trojan batteries. Even on the cloudiest day , we have been able to sit and watch TV all day ( if we wanted to ) and charge up what ever needed charging , with this set up.
We have never needed to use the inverter.
It was only ever put in , for charging things which dont have a 12v power lead.

Why dont you try temporally wiring the inverter directly to your current leisure battery set up , just to see how long it would run the hair dryer.
You may find you need to drastically up grade your battery bank and solar set up , to have enough power left to run the rest of the unit.

You'd probably find it cheaper to get Nickie to do her hair earlier than 10 pm and use the genny instead

Ralph

 

[haganap]

If you insist.

And 85Ah battery is rated at something like a 10 hour rate, that is 8.5A and since you should only half discharge a standard battery make that 4.25A.

Once you hit 100A+ you will be down to (guess) 40Ah. But again 50% rule so 20Ah. 20Ah/100A=0.2h. 0.2 * 60 = 12 mins.

Best plan is tell Nikki that a shaved head is THE in look.

Paul we have only ever used EHU for 1 week since having our MH.

We rally most weekends , through out the year. We used the same set up for 7 years with the caravans we have had in the past too.
We have a 85watt Kyocera solar panel and 2 x 6v Trojan batteries. Even on the cloudiest day , we have been able to sit and watch TV all day ( if we wanted to ) and charge up what ever needed charging , with this set up.
We have never needed to use the inverter.
It was only ever put in , for charging things which dont have a 12v power lead.

Why dont you try temporally wiring the inverter directly to your current leisure battery set up , just to see how long it would run the hair dryer.
You may find you need to drastically up grade your battery bank and solar set up , to have enough power left to run the rest of the unit.

You'd probably find it cheaper to get Nickie to do her hair earlier than 10 pm and use the genny instead

Ralph

Listen for peats sake Forget the bloody hair dryer.
Its not about the hairdryer. Brian your calculation may be correct but times it by 2.
Its called believe it or not choice and option. If I want instant power it will be there. its not like I want to sit there with a hair dryer or microwave running until the batteries go flat. I just want that option-----I know loads with this option, They get by very nice, I have now the diagramme and a 1/2 hour chat via skype with a funster to show me how they done theres.
I also know that I have a genny, but I do not want to take it for one weekend so Nikki can dry her hair before going to see Peters & Lee or spit the dog at an MMM meet in the middle of the summer.

But thanks every one for your input.

 

[JJ]

Listen for peats sake Forget the bloody hair dryer.
Its not about the hairdryer. Brian your calculation may be correct but times it by 2.
Its called believe it or not choice and option. If I want instant power it will be there. its not like I want to sit there with a hair dryer or microwave running until the batteries go flat. I just want that option-----I know loads with this option, They get by very nice, I have now the diagramme and a 1/2 hour chat via skype with a funster to show me how they done theres.
I also know that I have a genny, but I do not want to take it for one weekend so Nikki can dry her hair before going to see Peters & Lee or spit the dog at an MMM meet in the middle of the summer.

But thanks every one for your input.

I am with you on this one Haggers... do it how you want it... all the times people have told me that "You don't need this if you do that" or "why don't you just do this like we do?"

People often miss the "c" word... convenience. Maybe getting out a genny or plugging in a plug or clipping on battery connectors isn't much of a bind to them (and fair play to them for that) but for me it would mean remembering where the wire with the clips was... did I get any fuel for the genny? etc etc.

Design it, fit it and forget it... that's what I do... :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

JJ

Death To Hecklers... and all connected with them...

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[Ralph-n-Bev]

Paul,
Ive got a 12 v hairdryrer and straighteners , have you thought about that option ?
Both work perfectly well , without having to touch the inverter.
Bev

 

[haganap]

Paul,
Ive got a 12 v hairdryrer and straighteners , have you thought about that option ?
Both work perfectly well , without having to touch the inverter.
Bev

Bev, we have one a bit better than that,,,, We have a 12v hairdryer and Gas Straighteners :Tongue1:

The Gas ones are a much better option, initially recommended to us by tick59. Nikki has been very pleased with them stating they do a wonderful job.

However as seen, they are not for my hair :Blush: so unable to give a personal review.

 

[hilldweller]

Brian your calculation may be correct but times it by 2.

I gave you the credit of assuming you knew how to multiply 12 by 2. However twice FA is still FA.

Listen for peats sake Forget the bloody hair dryer.

Sir, look.....

SO moving on. I have now purchased off a member here (thanks Gary) a 1.2 kw inverter for Nikkis hair. (its a low power hairdryer) which of course will meet all my other needs...

With deepest respect Sir, I think that the enormity of the great hole you are digging for yourself is now sinking in, you need to sip a mug of sweet tea in a quiet place and reflect that if you carry on digging, in no time at all you will be the owner of a campervan able to dry hair to hair salon standards, but it will have so many leisure batteries and solar panels it's weight limit will be exceeded with no persons on board. At this point all you will be able to do is paint Paul's Fine Hair on the side and hope that the local council do not prevent you from continuing trading. On the plus side, this new venture will pay for your University tuition.

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