LPG kg/ltr in France (1 Viewer)

[Heyupluv]

When you refill your gas bottle at the pump......(I am in France)......I presume you purchase the gas in Litres......and as the bottle is in kg ...e.g. 13kg and I think I have read on previous threads you only fill to 80% if my maths are right that is about 10.0kg (10.4) how many litres are there in 10kg...........

Thank you Mel

 

[activecampers]

A litre is about 0.5kg

I assume you don't have a proper refillable system then as these automatically cut off at 80% in which case you fill till the pump stops.

If you are using a fleabay type filler for calor be aware they can be dangerous and you'd probably get booted off a forecourt for using one... Its almost certainly illegal. I thought about it then bought gaslow.... In order to be accurate on a manual fill you really need to weigh the bottle and take the tare weight (unique to your bottle and flagged on collar) and go on weight alone.

I'm happy I bought gaslow

 

[Wildman]

A litre is about 0.5kg

I assume you don't have a proper refillable system then as these automatically cut off at 80% in which case you fill till the pump stops.

If you are using a fleabay type filler for calor be aware they can be dangerous and you'd probably get booted off a forecourt for using one... Its almost certainly illegal. I thought about it then bought gaslow.... In order to be accurate on a manual fill you really need to weigh the bottle and take the tare weight (unique to your bottle and flagged on collar) and go on weight alone.

I'm happy I bought gaslow

Oh dear here we go again, they are neither dangerous nor illegal and in fact will automatically cut off at 80% just like any other LPG system. All of the LPG stations I have asked have no problem with the ebay type fillers provided they are well made and not a home made lashup. you have obviously never used one so please don't pass comment on things you know nothing about you just mislead people. And no I don't sell them nor make them just one satified user.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[activecampers]

Oh dear here we go again, they are neither dangerous nor illegal and in fact will automatically cut off at 80% just like any other LPG system. All of the LPG stations I have asked have no problem with the ebay type fillers provided they are well made and not a home made lashup. you have obviously never used one so please don't pass comment on things you know nothing about you just mislead people. And no I don't sell them nor make them just one satified user.

Hi Wildman
Sorry - and happy to be corrected where necessary. When I looked into it a couple of years ago the calor adapters didn't have any way to cut off at 80% and as such what I said above was intended in good faith and was correct as of last time l looked into it as they were illegal as there was no 80% cut off (which was a requirement according to the certifications given by the LPG suppliers)

How do these now work to detect 80% full and cut off pump supply? They can't have a float gauge and relying on bottle pressure will not be reliable enough?
You are right I never used one as my research 18mths ago suggested they weren't right and as such I'd say I can pass comment as I did know something about it when I did thorough research, but please feel free to correct (nicely).

I've just looked on fleabay and the ones I've found do not have an 80% filler, but rely on a human making the decision when to stop (which is fine if that is what you want) - but I'd appreciate any info you have on how these stop safely and automatically at 80% so I can be correct in any future assistance I may give people. Or if you have any link to the approval of them (or any other non automated shut off system)

Cheers in advance as I'd hate to misslead people in future.

 

[ocsid]

Caution: if your working off what is printed on the cylinder, 13kg etc then you must only put that in if it starts empty.!!!!!

 

[Heyupluv]

A litre is about 0.5kg

I assume you don't have a proper refillable system then as these automatically cut off at 80% in which case you fill till the pump stops.

If you are using a fleabay type filler for calor be aware they can be dangerous and you'd probably get booted off a forecourt for using one... Its almost certainly illegal. I thought about it then bought gaslow.... In order to be accurate on a manual fill you really need to weigh the bottle and take the tare weight (unique to your bottle and flagged on collar) and go on weight alone.

I'm happy I bought gaslow

Hi Ryan ...thanks for the info.........I was just wondering is it worth my while changing...... at this moment in time I have no set up Calor or otherwise,
It was just going thro my mind having read some info on Gaslow on a previous thread I had running.

I use 3 to 4....X 13 kg bottles per year ( but they will only have 80% in each bottle about 10kg) .. so I think I am correct in saying I am using 30 to 40 kg....( please correct me I am wrong).....I pay 19.5 Euros for a refill.............and as you say a litre is about 0.5kg.....so I am using about 15 to 20 litre at the pumps per year, and as a funster said on one of my previous threads... WEYMARD a Frenchie..in France...GPL is 0.67 at the Hypermarket and 0.80 on the motorways.

To refill in France at the pumps
Hypermarkets
15 ltr x 0.67c = 10.5 euros
20 ltr x 0.67c = 13.4 euros
Motorway stations
15 ltr x 0.80c = 12.0 euros
20 ltr x 0.80c = 16.0 euros
And to purchase refilled bottles it would cost 19.5 x 3 = 58.5 euros.....19.5 x 4 = 78 euros per year
as opposed to the worst scenario 20 ltr = at 0.80c per ltr 16 euros on the motorway per year

What would the cost of a full Gaslow cost !!??

If I have got it all please let me know

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[activecampers]

Hi

We have a small van, internal locker, single 6kg bottle.... Hence for us gaslow was perfect as we can fill up even when only 1/2 empty as we had no fallback option. Fully fitted into a panel van was £335 all in which I think was very good value as the install was tough! The bits alone woul dbe c. £200?

Doing a lot of wild camping, and running fridge, cooking, and hot water, we need to fill up every 2 weeks around 7-8 litures - around 5 euro! Over winter when wild camping and using gas heating we may fill up every week or so just to ensure it is full!

I don't see the point of a multiple bottle gaslow system as you may as well fill up more often and make better use of the space!

For you, if you have 2x bottles you can fully empty one and then use the other which would help, as already mentioned, if you use a manual adapter you need to ensure yourself you stay <80% and you can't do that without scales if bottle is 1/2 full

You say 30-40kg is 15-20 litres - its teh other way round 30-40kg is 60-80 litres. (e.g. our 6kg is 12 litres (excl 80% rule) )

If you are paying 19.5 for someone to refil a 13kg bottle - thats fairly cheap - we were paying £20 for a 6kg calor replacement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now its 5 euro...... Remember with gaslow you can fill up when you pass somewhere cheap - not just when empty.

So its a pricey investment but in our circumstances it was the right thing for US to do and made our long trips hassle free.


But for you its different, I make the math:-

For 40kg of gas (80L)
4 x replacement bottles @ 19.5 = 78 euro
80L @ 0.7 = 56 euro

 

[vwalan]

melvin . i like wildman use a bottle filla from ebay13 kg is for the gas to fill when empty. i use a spring balance toweigh the bottle if i think any is left in. normally i use till empty . there is a tare wt also on the bottle. in my experiance the pump switches off at about 85percent . cant say why it does. when calor fill my tank at home 1100 litres they very often fill to 90percent. i have been filling bottles since the 70,s i still have a gas tank and equipment for running auto gas on cars. a beam system from california and a lande hartog from holland. i have adaptors to fit just about any bottle be it propane /butane clip on screw on .yes you have to switch your brain on when filling bottles. be them yours or gaslow. best not smoke at the same time seen many times in foreign coutries while they tip one bottle into yours at the gas station.i normally say if you have a 13 kg bottle it will take 26 litres to be 80 percent full so put in 24 just to be safe. its very simple. you pay your money as you wish .i did use a filla from the car kit adapted to use for bottles for years but the ebay kit is very neat and well made.pm me i can give a tel no. may get it cheaper. filling petrol is just as dangerous in my books. cheers alan.

 

[vwalan]

you can fill up when part full because the pump stops. doesnt matter which system you use, if you pay 300 and odd quid you have to justify it some how so just frighten people seems the norm. cheers alan

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[lebesset]

all that happens at a gas refilling factory is that they put in the appropriate amount of gas , difference is that instead of having a screwed on connection it is a device that just presses against the entry during filling ...probably less safe and more prone to leaks , but 10 times quicker

with regard to the weight of gas contained therein ..it is what is marked on the bottle ....so a 13 Kg bottle contains 13 Kg of gas when full ...the safe load

so if you want to fill your bottles yourself , stick to the marked fill weight and it is within the safety limit , in other words 26 litres in a bottle marked 13Kg

as a matter of interest , the 80% fill is pretty arbitrary , it is designed to cover all known possibilities eg you are in the middle of the sahara , 50C , you leave the bottle in the sun and it heats to 80C ; but better safe than sorry

bear in mind the pressures involved....lpg [ ie as far as we are concerned butane, propane or a mixture of these [ yes I know that in reality there will be other lpg's as pollutants , maybe 10% , but let's not be pedantic ] has approximately the following pressures at normal european summer temperatures

gas in bottle 10bar
vessel design operating pressure 15bar
test pressure 30bar

so there is a huge safety margin built in

personally I would never 'top up ' a bottle ; there is no easy reliable method of knowing exactly what is left in the bottle ...wait until empty then you know precisely the safe fill

frankly this is safer than the refillable container system ; I ran lpg powered vehicles for 25 years , and have had the 80% control fail on a couple of occasions ; and met and discussed with others who have had the same problem [ mainly dutch ]; then you get an overfill ; can't happen if you follow my methodology

 

[activecampers]

Save the sniping for the other forum - this is supposed to be the fun one! I hope fun doesn't go the same way

FWIW I feel no need to justify any spend. I am not trying to frighten anyone! If you see above which I tried to make clear MY circumstances are different as I tried to clarify, such as internal gas locker, single small bottle. For me to use other adapter It'd take me 1/2 hour to get the bottle out to fill! and I'd not want the wife to do it without me there. Also, as you said, if you know what you are doing you are generally okay (I've never heard of an incident 1st hand). But considering the OP didn't know how heavy a litre of gas was, and got the maths wrong (sorry!), it suggest he is not a knowledgable person on this topic and isn't aware of the facts.

You mention you use scales when filling, but may I ask how the pump stops when the bottle is 85% (which IMO is probably acceptable if it does). The engineer in me doens't give me a reason as to why it does. I'd have thought without a mechanism to do this (aka all "permanent fit" systems) it'd just fill till full which, as we know, would be a problem. And if they all do, why do all "permanent fit" systems etc have the 80% valve and why do the LPG garage suppliers insist on this valve being there to stop overfilling if the pumps do it?)

Think I'm going to bow out of this thread as clearly suggesting what I believe to be accurate facts helping out the OP is argued agressively suggesting I know nothing; am hear to frighten people; and not being helpful - then its no longer constructive.

Mel - hope you have the info you wanted.

 

[Heyupluv]

Hi

We have a small van, internal locker, single 6kg bottle.... Hence for us gaslow was perfect as we can fill up even when only 1/2 empty as we had no fallback option. Fully fitted into a panel van was £335 all in which I think was very good value as the install was tough! The bits alone woul dbe c. £200?

Doing a lot of wild camping, and running fridge, cooking, and hot water, we need to fill up every 2 weeks around 7-8 litures - around 5 euro! Over winter when wild camping and using gas heating we may fill up every week or so just to ensure it is full!

I don't see the point of a multiple bottle gaslow system as you may as well fill up more often and make better use of the space!

For you, if you have 2x bottles you can fully empty one and then use the other which would help, as already mentioned, if you use a manual adapter you need to ensure yourself you stay <80% and you can't do that without scales if bottle is 1/2 full

You say 30-40kg is 15-20 litres - its teh other way round 30-40kg is 60-80 litres. (e.g. our 6kg is 12 litres (excl 80% rule) )

If you are paying 19.5 for someone to refil a 13kg bottle - thats fairly cheap - we were paying £20 for a 6kg calor replacement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now its 5 euro...... Remember with gaslow you can fill up when you pass somewhere cheap - not just when empty.

So its a pricey investment but in our circumstances it was the right thing for US to do and made our long trips hassle free.


But for you its different, I make the math:-

For 40kg of gas (80L)
4 x replacement bottles @ 19.5 = 78 euro
80L @ 0.7 = 56 euro

Hi Ryan
Sorry about the maths mistake........
And yes we do have two bottles in a 2 bottle chamber....and yes the price is good and the "Actigaz" lime green bottles of propane we use is the price quoted, and up to now we have found them all over France at all supermarkets and gardening shops, so there is no problem there.

And if I change motorhomes in the near future (which I am thinking of) and the outside of the motorhome as been altered for refill you then you would have to leave the Gaslow system in situ .....so that would mean more expense to a new van

I can see your situation it is the best solution, and I can see just refilling the amount that is required to top up is good ………but I don’t think I can justify changing.

Thank you for all you help …Mel

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[vwalan]

the facts are all gas tanks dont have shut off valves i have one with a brass screw and you open it to let out the gas when it lets out liquid its time to stop. you do mean well sorry if i came acros offensive. its just that every one is entitled to have a say it seems to me as i said but never mind both systems work. i also have an lpg pump so i can fill bottle to bottle etc . as you travel you see many things that at first dont seem right but is it our education that teaches us wrong . sometimes i question my teaching from the past. hope you arent offendedbetter to make a friend than an enemy. cheers alan.

 

[Heyupluv]

Caution: if your working off what is printed on the cylinder, 13kg etc then you must only put that in if it starts empty.!!!!!

Hi OCSID....Yes I see your point...I was just using that as a example.. max - mim...thank you Mel

 

[Heyupluv]

melvin . i like wildman use a bottle filla from ebay13 kg is for the gas to fill when empty. i use a spring balance toweigh the bottle if i think any is left in. normally i use till empty . there is a tare wt also on the bottle. in my experiance the pump switches off at about 85percent . cant say why it does. when calor fill my tank at home 1100 litres they very often fill to 90percent. i have been filling bottles since the 70,s i still have a gas tank and equipment for running auto gas on cars. a beam system from california and a lande hartog from holland. i have adaptors to fit just about any bottle be it propane /butane clip on screw on .yes you have to switch your brain on when filling bottles. be them yours or gaslow. best not smoke at the same time seen many times in foreign coutries while they tip one bottle into yours at the gas station.i normally say if you have a 13 kg bottle it will take 26 litres to be 80 percent full so put in 24 just to be safe. its very simple. you pay your money as you wish .i did use a filla from the car kit adapted to use for bottles for years but the ebay kit is very neat and well made.pm me i can give a tel no. may get it cheaper. filling petrol is just as dangerous in my books. cheers alan.

see my reply to Ryan and thank you Alan,
But I am not at this moment in time it is the right way for me to go...not saying it is the wrong way.

Mel

I would like to say thank to you all, for your input/and sound information and also the input on previous threads I have just been running on LPG
Mel

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[shortcircuit]

In MacDonalds on free wifi in Boulonge. Have just filled up 10.74 lt cost 6.61 euros so at a guess that is about 60p a ltr. Cant e bad

 

[Heyupluv]

In MacDonalds on free wifi in Boulonge. Have just filled up 10.74 lt cost 6.61 euros so at a guess that is about 60p a ltr. Cant e bad

or has it gone up, or was it in a different part of France for both prices
as diesel changes every day over here

 

[Wildman]

Hi Wildman
Sorry - and happy to be corrected where necessary. When I looked into it a couple of years ago the calor adapters didn't have any way to cut off at 80% and as such what I said above was intended in good faith and was correct as of last time l looked into it as they were illegal as there was no 80% cut off (which was a requirement according to the certifications given by the LPG suppliers)

How do these now work to detect 80% full and cut off pump supply? They can't have a float gauge and relying on bottle pressure will not be reliable enough?
You are right I never used one as my research 18mths ago suggested they weren't right and as such I'd say I can pass comment as I did know something about it when I did thorough research, but please feel free to correct (nicely).

I've just looked on fleabay and the ones I've found do not have an 80% filler, but rely on a human making the decision when to stop (which is fine if that is what you want) - but I'd appreciate any info you have on how these stop safely and automatically at 80% so I can be correct in any future assistance I may give people. Or if you have any link to the approval of them (or any other non automated shut off system)

Cheers in advance as I'd hate to misslead people in future.

the automatic cut off is in the filler pum, not the receiver. Gaslow bottles have a release valve that will blow off in the event that the filler goes wrong and tries to overfill. Using a manual adapter one starts with an empty bottle and fills with the exact amount. I am assured by the fuel stations it is impossible to overfill but have never tried, I am happy to refill more often than fill to the absolute limit. These adapers have been in use for many years without mishap. Calor outlets use them to refill their own bottles. The filler cuts off at a given back pressure which is lower than the 80% fill rate. simple as that. Everything else is simply panic mode by people who have not used the system or are unable to understand simple instructions. I have no gas leaks from the filling adapter and only differance to Gaslow is that I have to remember to open, then close the gas valve. when I am incapeable of diong that I will no doubt have to give up driving let alone motorhoming. My adapter has the 80% fill rate marked on it in litres for a number of different bottle sizes. and I work to that. I'ts not rocket science. But each to their own and I would not recomend their use to anyone who has the sightest doubt about their ability to use one safely. It is less hazarous than filling with petrol.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Wildman]

Caution: if your working off what is printed on the cylinder, 13kg etc then you must only put that in if it starts empty.!!!!!

why else would you refill abottle?

 

[Heyupluv]

in macdonalds on free wifi in boulonge. Have just filled up 10.74 lt cost 6.61 euros so at a guess that is about 60p a ltr. Cant e bad

0.615 ltr ........is that good or bad as I was told it was a lot cheaper in the UK

 

[olley]

Hi can I explain the pressure cut off?

When you fill an empty bottle you have to first overcome the existing pressure in the bottle before you can pump any liquid in,this will be around 150psi, as you fill the bottle the vapour in it condenses into liquid to make space for the liquid gas, to achieve this you need to pump the gas in at a higher pressure than what's in the bottle already.

Just back from the pumps and it was registering 175psi to do this. As the volume of gas in the bottle decreases it gets harder to make the vapour condense quickly enough, so the pressure rises achieve this, at some point the pressure will rise enough to trigger the automatic cut off of the pump. Normally this is caused by the float valve in the tank.

The pressure rise will be dependant upon: fill rate, volume of vapour left and temperature, as all these will be different at any time, I don't think its a very safe way to fill a bottle to 80%.

Liquids are to all intents and purposes incompressible, so if it is full, then only a slight increase in the liquid temperature would push the pressure well over the test pressure of the tank due to the expansion of the liquid. If its got a pressure relief valve that will vent some liquid, if not, the tank may split.

It may well be that the 80% margin is so over the top that in almost any situation the pump will cut off before the bottle is completely full, but for me its an accident waiting to happen.

Hi Alan those adaptors are banned on Countrywide Autogas filling stations due to a fire caused by using one.

Olley

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Heyupluv]

Hi can I explain the pressure cut off?

When you fill an empty bottle you have to first overcome the existing pressure in the bottle before you can pump any liquid in,this will be around 150psi, as you fill the bottle the vapour in it condenses into liquid to make space for the liquid gas, to achieve this you need to pump the gas in at a higher pressure than what's in the bottle already.

Just back from the pumps and it was registering 175psi to do this. As the volume of gas in the bottle decreases it gets harder to make the vapour condense quickly enough, so the pressure rises achieve this, at some point the pressure will rise enough to trigger the automatic cut off of the pump. Normally this is caused by the float valve in the tank.

The pressure rise will be dependant upon: fill rate, volume of vapour left and temperature, as all these will be different at any time, I don't think its a very safe way to fill a bottle to 80%.

Liquids are to all intents and purposes incompressible, so if it is full, then only a slight increase in the liquid temperature would push the pressure well over the test pressure of the tank due to the expansion of the liquid. If its got a pressure relief valve that will vent some liquid, if not, the tank may split.

It may well be that the 80% margin is so over the top that in almost any situation the pump will cut off before the bottle is completely full, but for me its an accident waiting to happen.

Hi Alan those adaptors are banned on Countrywide Autogas filling stations due to a fire caused by using one.

Olley

Thanks Olley... for going to great lengths to put this info into Print....Mel

 

[vwalan]

thats ok there isnt any country wide gas places round here. there as been accidents with petrol but they still let people fill cars.
i just looked on a calor bottle the test pressure says 300psi .so it does look to me it would be very hard to split the bottle even if it was filled to the brim. if anybody is not happy to use the fill adaptor then dont. all i know is it cant be any safer with the gas low. all this taslk of floats is crap as lots of lpg tanks dont have them . some do and not exactly acurate in my experiance. i have many times let the pump stop its self , there is a chance the bottle is full to the top. have had this with 907 gaz bottles ,the flame spits a bit. just take it outside n let a bit of gas out .put back on its fine. like i say i have an lpg hand pump here try filling a bottle to the to[p with it your a stronger man than i,ve ever met if you can. of course we must always becareful with gas it goes with out saying , take your time n if you dont want to fill bottles dont. i just feel there is alot of scare mongery going on. i,ll just carry on doing as i have always done saving a few bob . have fun ,i do. cheers alan.

 

[olley]

Hi Alan Propane expands 0.288% per degree C, make no mistake it will expand, if the bottle is filled to the top then the bottle will stretch until it breaks. You can make the bottle as strong as you like, as long as the temperature increases, then the liquid will still expand.

As far as I know all modern LPG tanks for fixed installations in a vehicle have to have a float valve, so that's not crap. Your happy with what you are doing, and that's fine, but to infer that its a perfectly safe way to fill a tank, now that's crap.

Olley

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Heyupluv]

Hi Alan Propane expands 0.288% per degree C, make no mistake it will expand, if the bottle is filled to the top then the bottle will stretch until it breaks. You can make the bottle as strong as you like, as long as the temperature increases, then the liquid will still expand.

As far as I know all modern LPG tanks for fixed installations in a vehicle have to have a float valve, so that's not crap. Your happy with what you are doing, and that's fine, but to infer that its a perfectly safe way to fill a tank, now that's crap.

Olley

Can I just change the question pleaseeeeee....We are (tomorrow morning) off for another four weeks heading west on to Normandy first ...then heading down south to just below Le-Mann then further down south, down the atlantic side, what is the weather like at the moment and a forcast
If you see me say Hello I will be on French plates
Mel

 

[vwalan]

hi olley ,i was only saying i have a calor tank here with no float. it as a small brass screw valve on top you part open it on filling ,gas comes out ,when liquid comes out you stop filling. thats it. its original calor from a car lpg system . i think thats less safe than the ebay fillers . i also have a similarscrew valve on the big tank in my garden and calor open it every time they fill it up so gas escapes every time just like my small tank. is that not dangerous as well. but i dont mean to fall out with anybody . i dont force anybody to do anything .its their choice.have fun . keep smiling .alan.

 

[lebesset]

why not just go to the meteo france web site ?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[hitch hiker]

lpg abroard

hi we are just about to buy our first fith wheel and are looking into the lpg side of things
our take on things is we assumed you would need to buy new gas bottles and regulators for each country we visited ? we then thought as the chevy has lpg is it possible to run a connection and hose to the fifth wheel from the tank on the vehicle, doing away with the other gas bottles

 

[vwalan]

yes it should be possible . in practice is it worth the bother?lpg is taken from your tank in liquid form for burning in your engine .do not try to ttt into this line/pipe. it may be you have a vapour take off on the top of your tank. this could be used. i dont recommend it. as you will use gas at a great rate with your engine so cooking etc will mean that you could run out much quicker. usually they are two different systems . thats the way i would do it. also if in a place with no nearby auto gas it complicates things. keep it for engine ,dont mix things up i can see many problems regarding shut offs etc. cheers alan.

 

[lebesset]

hitch hiker , if you say where you intend to go in your early days , maybe we can advice the easy/cheap way to get gas supplies

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}