Fiat 2005 2.8 jtd - it won't start (1 Viewer)

Sep 9, 2014
168
102
Funster No
33,266
MH
Coach built
Exp
Summer 2014
Been a while since I've posted, but I need some help from the collective wisdom here please...I didn't have too much hair before this issue but if you could help keep what little is left, I'd be grateful!

AT Dakota, 2005 38k miles 2.8 jtd lump - fault free to now.

Sits on driveway with starter battery connected to a CTEK charger. Give it a start-up every month or so. Bursts into life on first turn of key...until a few days ago.
This time nothing more than a faint click from starter solonoid.

Battery, think it's the original, shows a healthy voltage - but perhaps it's lacking in oomph. New Yuasa battery fitted, still nothing more than a faint click. Out with multimeter, it's getting full volts to starter but the battery voltage is dropping to 0.8 volts for 30 secs after attempting to start! There is also a quite heavy clunk after 30 seconds which I assume to be the starter solonoid disengaging?

So, every terminal / fuse location on the positive terminal of the battery is cleaned, as are the starter connections and body/gearbox earthing points - none looked bad.
Try to start - nothing.

Off comes the starter, stripped, cleaned usual brush debris and a little scoring of commutator. Solonoid seemed free and it ran happily when bench tested. Refitted and this time it turns engine over at a healthy speed, but it won't start.

Inertia switch is fine - deliberately tripped and reset and it still won't start...still got a voltage drop but now my instrument needles are doing a dance and the hazard light switch is buzzing away loudly...I'm curing one thing to be presented with more frustrating and bizzare problems!

While my hearing isn't great - I cannot hear the lift pump working, no fuel no start!
While trying to rationalise what's turned a healthy starting engine into something less than reliable, the van is fitted with a Toad AI606 alarm/ immobiliser. This "appears" to be working, but I can't help but wonder if this is a problem.
It has two immobiliser circuits - without unravelling it all I'm assuming the two circuits it's connected to are the start circuit and possibly the fuel lift pump...as it also use's the indicator circuit for visual indication of status, that "may" account for the buzzing hazard switch?

It's worth mentioning that the standard Fiat immobiliser appears to be working.

Before I get into removing the Toad alarm, I need to check I'm getting power to the lift pump - I assume that I can access this pump without draining dropping the tank? Is there an access panel in driving area floor - nothing obvious I can see?

I've also got it in my head that the starter, or at least the solonoid may still be iffy - this huge voltage drop?

Anyone (if you can make sense of the above!) able to offer any other avenues to pursue? I'd be hugely grateful if you could please!

David
 

MC 55 FUN

Free Member
Feb 18, 2016
3,432
6,347
Rural South West Wales.
Funster No
41,707
MH
2015 Majestic 195
Exp
Since 20th Feb' 2016
In my experience with cars '' dancing '' instrument panel gauges are indicative of voltage / earthing issues - sorry I can't be more helpful.
 

john1953

Free Member
May 29, 2014
74
96
middlewich, cheshire
Funster No
31,706
MH
Van Conversion.
Exp
since 2007
Yeh same here, before you do anything else just make sure you have a good engine to chassis earth.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
J
Sep 9, 2014
168
102
Funster No
33,266
MH
Coach built
Exp
Summer 2014
Thanks for your replies...convinced the earths are good, every visible earth is bright and shines and I've connected a decent jump lead from battery neg' to engine with no joy <sniff>
I think (hope) I've addressed all the usual suspects for a no-start situation.

I'd have it recovered to a repair place if I thought it could be gotten onto a truck...I live at the top of a cul-de-sac, on a hill. To get it out the drive needs a fair bit of to and fro'ing to get it pointed in the right direction on the road. To make things worse it's blocking in my two summer time play cars <sniff again>

David
 

denisejoe

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 6, 2014
5,564
11,639
Warden isle of sheppy
Funster No
32,702
MH
A Class
Exp
Since 2004
Try pushing the cut out button to reset it on our old van a 2004 burstner it was on the bulk head next to the battery, it was at the bottom of the unit that looks like cylinder

Joe
 

denisejoe

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 6, 2014
5,564
11,639
Warden isle of sheppy
Funster No
32,702
MH
A Class
Exp
Since 2004
Sorry just checked on my current van and it looks like an old fasioned coil and the button is on the top

Joe
its small and right at the back
 

Peter JohnsCross MH

Funster
Deceased RIP
Jan 5, 2008
9,617
6,194
East Sussex
Funster No
1,134
MH
Autotrail
Exp
1995
Fuel cut off solenoid not getting voltage or stuck through lack of use, that will stop engine getting any fuel, you could connect a 12v lead direct to it if no supply to check if it works

Possible air leaks in fuel supply, check diesel filter for leaks or blockage.

Peter
 
Jan 8, 2013
8,478
11,516
Dronfield - Derbyshire
Funster No
24,202
MH
Burstner Lyseo 690G
Exp
Happy FLT since 2011
I would be checking the fuel supply now.
What about the fuel filter.
Undo one of the injector pipes,you should get sprayed with diesel.
You can check the fuel pump by removing the last pipe that is the return to the tank.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Oct 29, 2008
5,024
5,804
West Yorkshire
Funster No
4,712
MH
PVC
Exp
since 2008
First of all. If the starter is not spinning, Test the voltage at the starter.
Second, listen for the fuel pump to start when turning the key to put the dash lights on.
Third, connect jump lead between the engine and the -ve terminal on the battery, if it starts.remove earth straps clean and retest.
Forth, is there a possibility of mouse / water or other damage to wiring.

Then after that I don't know.
 

wizza

Free Member
Aug 3, 2008
175
117
Essex
Funster No
3,553
MH
low line
Exp
8 years
Try Earth on gearbox may look ok remove bolt and then clean and refit I have had these seized and it snaps bolt on removal
 
OP
OP
J
Sep 9, 2014
168
102
Funster No
33,266
MH
Coach built
Exp
Summer 2014
Again, thanks for your contributions!

Fuel cut off solonoid/inertia switch is I think OK - I've deliberately tripped and reset it several times. I could bridge it I and see what happens.

Confident battery is fine, 950 CCA...I've always had confidence in Yuasa batteries and the supplier bought one in for me direct from Yuasa UK. Anyway, it turns engine over at a healthy speed (faster than old battery)
I just need it to start!

I really have it in my head that it's the after market alarm/immobiliser, need to be sure before I tackle what looks like a snakes wedding of wires - and possibly make matters worse!

David

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Nov 18, 2011
11,856
42,474
Planet Earth
Funster No
18,938
MH
A van
Exp
Over 25 year's
Check all your Erth tags on iner wing and any where Ther is a earth
this sounds like a earthing problem
To me
Bill
 
?

****

Deleted User
Is the motor reading the ignition key, any way to reset it?
 

JockandRita

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 2, 2007
11,402
148,457
Lincs/Cambs border
Funster No
49
MH
N+B Flair 8000i
Exp
Since May 05 (Ex Tuggers).
@jac-in-a-box. David, we had the same problem about four years ago, on our 2.8TDi at Narbonne Plage. It turned out to be a faulty immobiliser, which operates on the fuel pump, and was repaired and reprogrammed at the main Fiat Agent in Narbonne.

HTH,

Jock. :)

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Aug 21, 2008
692
1,355
skegness
Funster No
3,766
MH
Autosleeper Symbol
Exp
Van Conversion
I had problems with mine st times and it was the immobiliser,I always managed to get it started by keep pressing the alarm button even when in the ignition.i could see on the dash console the red lock not going off when it was going to be a problem.alan
 
Jul 13, 2008
3,722
3,639
Funster No
3,275
MH
Low profile
Exp
Since 2007
Was coming to say the same as @alan, is the red lock on dash going off when ignition turned on?
 

Emmit

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 14, 2009
8,004
17,531
Cornwall
Funster No
7,967
MH
Pilote Explorateur
Exp
Jan.2014
This one is totally left field as our American cousins say. This has happened to me!!!

I couldn't start our Hobby (effectively a 2005 2.8 Jtd) because I had the Audi car keys in my pocket!!!!

Somehow, the Fiat 'knew' they were there and refused to start. Put car keys on a rock 10yds away and off the Fiat went. It happened to me twice in 2 hrs.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
J
Sep 9, 2014
168
102
Funster No
33,266
MH
Coach built
Exp
Summer 2014
Check all your Erth tags on iner wing and any where Ther is a earth
this sounds like a earthing problem
To me
Bill

Felt sure I'd looked at all the earths Bill - having just had a quick look this morning, there are two hefty earths comming direct from neg terminal of battery. One is a direct earth to the starter - that is spotless. The other goes under the battery tray, to where I'm not sure?
It's going to be a battery out job again to check; grrr!

Is the motor reading the ignition key, any way to reset it?

Not 100% certain what you mean. If it's will the starter turn over on the key, yes it does. I've gone from nothing but a click when trying to turn the engine over, to an engine that rapidly spins but won't start.

@jac-in-a-box. David, we had the same problem about four years ago, on our 2.8TDi at Narbonne Plage. It turned out to be a faulty immobiliser, which operates on the fuel pump, and was repaired and reprogrammed at the main Fiat Agent in Narbonne.

HTH,

Jock. :)

I've got a strong feeling that I do have an immobiliser issue Jock - albeit that it's the aftermarket dual circuit one that's the culprit. The dash indicates the Fiat immobiliser is working correctly ie ignition on and the immobiliser light goes out after a second.

I had problems with mine st times and it was the immobiliser,I always managed to get it started by keep pressing the alarm button even when in the ignition.i could see on the dash console the red lock not going off when it was going to be a problem.alan

Was coming to say the same as @alan, is the red lock on dash going off when ignition turned on?

Alan & Boringfrog, are you referring to an aftermarket system? Sounds like it. I have a red/green light indication for alarm status...jump in cab, red light lit, key to start position, disarm alarm/immob on fob, led changes from red to green, turn key and it bursts into life...in it's past life!
It seems to be functioning according to LED sequence but I think, or hope, that one of the immob circuits is still affecting the supply to in tank fuel pump - I can't hear the pump.

This one is totally left field as our American cousins say. This has happened to me!!!

I couldn't start our Hobby (effectively a 2005 2.8 Jtd) because I had the Audi car keys in my pocket!!!!

Somehow, the Fiat 'knew' they were there and refused to start. Put car keys on a rock 10yds away and off the Fiat went. It happened to me twice in 2 hrs.

Yes, heard this one emmitdb. Oddly enough one of the two cars trapped in my drive is an Audi...key fobs are nowhere near the m'home though!
But appreciate the tip

Snow, unbelievable snow, more than has ever laid in the last 2 or 3 winters has curbed my enthusiasm to play just now. Plenty of time to mull over the problem.
*Need to find where this large 2nd earth cable from battery goes and check it out.
*check there is power to lift pump and it's associated fuses / relays. Bridge the inertia fuel cut-off switch
*if none of that works, attempt to remove the aftermarket alarm/ immobiliser...twitches me a little. With unmarked and many same coloured wires from the alarm unit, I need to be sure I get the right ones!

Genuinely welcome all the useful advice offered so far. If there is anything else I should consider, please let me know:)
Finally, a decent schematic of the electrical system for starting/ fuel control would be a god send - anyone please?

Thanks, David
 
Jul 13, 2008
3,722
3,639
Funster No
3,275
MH
Low profile
Exp
Since 2007
I presume it's the factory fitted imobiliser. 2004 2.8Jtd.
20160429_125413.jpg
 
OP
OP
J
Sep 9, 2014
168
102
Funster No
33,266
MH
Coach built
Exp
Summer 2014
Yes, that's the OE Fiat immobliser Boringfrog - mine indicates that it works correctly: light goes out when the key is turned to MAR position.

I suspect Alan, who posted prior to you, is talking about an aftermarket alarm/immob' with a red/green indicator LED...I've effectively got 3 immobiliser circuits to look at and try to work out what parts of the electrics are isolated, the Fiat one and the two from the TOAD system.

David

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Peter JohnsCross MH

Funster
Deceased RIP
Jan 5, 2008
9,617
6,194
East Sussex
Funster No
1,134
MH
Autotrail
Exp
1995
A diesel only requires fuel, an imobilser prevents the engine starter working and the fuel solenoid being energised so it is highy unlikely to be the cause of the problem as the starter works

Sugest you loosen a pipe feed to an injector and see if there is diesel there when the engine is being cranked

Peter
 

JockandRita

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 2, 2007
11,402
148,457
Lincs/Cambs border
Funster No
49
MH
N+B Flair 8000i
Exp
Since May 05 (Ex Tuggers).
A diesel only requires fuel, an imobilser prevents the engine starter working and the fuel solenoid being energised so it is highy unlikely to be the cause of the problem as the starter works

Sugest you loosen a pipe feed to an injector and see if there is diesel there when the engine is being cranked

Peter
Sorry Peter, but mine was turning over fine, but it just wouldn't start, due to a faulty immobiliser which cut power to the fuel solenoid, which operates on the mechanical fuel pump.

Cheers,

Jock. :)
 

Jaws

LIFE MEMBER
Sep 26, 2008
23,821
71,966
Thetford Norfolk
Funster No
4,189
MH
C class, Chieftain
Exp
since 2006 ( I think ! )
@jac-in-a-box I used to get the same on my pre face lift JTD..
First couple of times I did not realise what it was.. but the third time !! Sorted

Look at the battery.. Release the battery post clamps, give each one a bloody good swizzle and turn to clean up the connection, reclamp.. job done

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
?

****

Deleted User
Not 100% certain what you mean. If it's will the starter turn over on the key, yes it does. I've gone from nothing but a click when trying to turn the engine over, to an engine that rapidly spins but won't start.

As it seems like the immobiliser its irrelevant but what i was on about it your key should have a chip in it and the van reads this chip when you turn the key to the first notch. If its not recognised the van wont start. If it was to start on your spare key then that would be my guess
 
OP
OP
J
Sep 9, 2014
168
102
Funster No
33,266
MH
Coach built
Exp
Summer 2014
As it seems like the immobiliser its irrelevant but what i was on about it your key should have a chip in it and the van reads this chip when you turn the key to the first notch. If its not recognised the van wont start. If it was to start on your spare key then that would be my guess

Got you now! Yes, both keys have been tried...immobiliser symbol light (for OE Fiat immob') on instrument panel goes out.

A diesel only requires fuel, an imobilser prevents the engine starter working and the fuel solenoid being energised so it is highy unlikely to be the cause of the problem as the starter works

Sugest you loosen a pipe feed to an injector and see if there is diesel there when the engine is being cranked

Peter

I understand what you're saying Peter, but I'm convinced the fuel circuit is disabled - I can't hear the lift pump working...IIRC it should run for 20 secs during the start cycle. If that's the Fiat immob' that's disabled it (I'm not sure how it works) Or the Toad system that's blocking the fuel circuit, I need to fathom out. While it's natural to assume that the starter circuit is one of the two that's disabled by the Toad setup, I understand that may not necessarily be the case...it could be any other engine sensor/circuit that's isolated. Apparently the starter circuit is the easiest to defeat by a thief; jump the positive direct to the starter, and run a live from positive to the S terminal on the starter solonoid, that's the starter circuit in play. Indeed that was something I did when trying to get the starter to work initially, it didn't - hence the starter being stripped and cleaned.



Sorry Peter, but mine was turning over fine, but it just wouldn't start, due to a faulty immobiliser which cut power to the fuel solenoid, which operates on the mechanical fuel pump.

Cheers,

Jock. :)

Jock, to be clear, was your issue caused by an aftermarket alarm/immob device or the standard Fiat device?

@jac-in-a-box I used to get the same on my pre face lift JTD..
First couple of times I did not realise what it was.. but the third time !! Sorted

Look at the battery.. Release the battery post clamps, give each one a bloody good swizzle and turn to clean up the connection, reclamp.. job done

John - "..job done" If only! That's been looked at...and caused me a lot of grief too. Managed to break off the corner of the neg' terminal fuse plate where the 150A Mega fuse connects to a cable at the rear. All sorted now with spotless connections at battery, fuse & cable connections.

So, picking up on something mentioned earlier, "fuel solonoid" are we talking about the inertia switch, the one located on the engine bulkhead near the battery with the rubber cap for resetting, or something else?
'Tis a right pain trying to ID components with no drawings!
I've bought an Ebay manual but my limited skills with IT stuff leaves me unable to open it, I really could with an electrical diagram so I have an idea of what and where I should be looking! <sniff, again>

Thanks to all for your contributions, truly appreciated:)

David
 

JockandRita

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 2, 2007
11,402
148,457
Lincs/Cambs border
Funster No
49
MH
N+B Flair 8000i
Exp
Since May 05 (Ex Tuggers).
@jac-in-a-box. David, I can confirm that our problem was caused by the failure of the standard factory fitted Fiat immobiliser. :(

Our Strikeback Alarm system doesn't have it's own immobiliser, and is totally independent of the Fiat immobiliser.

Cheers,

Jock. :)
 

denisejoe

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 6, 2014
5,564
11,639
Warden isle of sheppy
Funster No
32,702
MH
A Class
Exp
Since 2004
That fuel solenoid is the fuel cutoff in case of accident I had driven to my house parked up, a week later going to the tunnel it wouldn't start. Reset is just pushing rubber top down


Joe
 

Jaws

LIFE MEMBER
Sep 26, 2008
23,821
71,966
Thetford Norfolk
Funster No
4,189
MH
C class, Chieftain
Exp
since 2006 ( I think ! )
Ok.. Just a thought..

Have you actually checked the voltage across the battery while the key is turned ?

It is far from impossible the battery has suffered an internal break between plates.. When that happens you usually get enough juice to see a light on but thats about all you do get !

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top