Clutch Conundrum (ducato 2.8 jtd 2002) (1 Viewer)

matthewb

Free Member
Feb 21, 2016
5
0
cornwall
Funster No
41,729
MH
coach built
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15+
so the background is this.
Eura mobil tag axle on fiat ducato 2.8jtd 2002 ( van probably a 2001... but the clutch is hydraulic)

2014 summer holidays... all loaded up to just under max (4500kg) and leave home in cornwall headed for the ferry port. The van hasnt been used much since the previous summer( moved a few times for its mot and a few runs probably once a month) all going lovely until i reach a steep hill on the way out of cornwall.... clutch starts to slip...... doent quite believe it but back off and try again on the next hill sure wnough slips again... start to panic but what to do? the ferry is wating. So we decide to go for it anyway and board the santander ferry. The WHOLE way down im on the internet searching for "how to replace clutch" or "cost of clutch replacements in spain" and generally panicking. When we get to spain i dump a full bottle of water in the bell casing.... ( why? i really dont know!!) and we head off for our 6 weeks holiday. Well i babied the clutch to start with but as the 6 weeks went on i became braver and started to drive it normally again. It did not slip once....... including driving up and over the picos de europa and the pyrenees on the way back.......

2015 summer holidays... exactly the same as 2014.. fully loaded and not used hardly since last summer... and slips on the way to the ferry port. again i can get it to slip at will just by pushing hard on the "go pedal". Get on the ferry (to france this time) and worry about the clkutch again... but not as much as last year.. get to france and spend 6 weeks driving around france... up hill down dale and the clutch does not slip at all for the whole trip.

2016 this last weekend, drive to oxford for the weekend,( lightly loaded probably about 3800kg), first time the van has been anywhere since last september, get out of cornwall ok, fill up with fuel at Weston super mare, get back on the motorway and slip slip slip the rest of teh way to oxford. Obviously as soon as it does it i am backing it off but even so its really easy to get it to slip this time. AND the pedal feels funny, kind of like it is not coming back up all the way, and if i hook my toe under it i can make it return up to a higher position by pulling on it. Get to the campsite at oxford, park up for 3 days.. not too worried as we are in the uk and can get the breakdown to get us home if we have to . So this morning we rock off the chocks and head for home....... clutch pedal no longer feels funny... and whatever i do i cant get the clutch to slip, even on the meanest steepest hill near home it doesnt want to slip. at one point i "think" it started to slip... but im not sure... it may well have been me being paranoid. On the way up to oxford i could make it slip at will........

so the question is... what on earth is going on?
I am reluctant to replace the clutch unless i can work out why it is slipping and why the problem is intermittent and after long periods of standing. Any clues?
Does anyone have a link to an exploded diagram of the clutch assembly? or a decent workshop manual( i have been looking and looking!)
 
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matthewb

Free Member
Feb 21, 2016
5
0
cornwall
Funster No
41,729
MH
coach built
Exp
15+
60000 miles ( original clutch), serviced annually by me.
Nope no puddles at all.

I could believe the clutch is shot... and yet....... why doesnt it slip all the time?

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pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,207
48,810
Dark side of the moon
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172
Exp
Since 2005
Long shot but.....

It may be the slave cylinder is sticky and not fully returning until it gets some proper use.
Lifting the pedal will only be taking any slack out of the master cylinder actuator rod clevises.
Standing for months at a time wont do it any favours.
Going on your symptoms I would replace the cylinder before the clutch.....and it will be cheaper.
 
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matthewb

Free Member
Feb 21, 2016
5
0
cornwall
Funster No
41,729
MH
coach built
Exp
15+
thanks mitzimad.. that sounds like an interesting thought and would "fit" with the symptoms
 
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matthewb

Free Member
Feb 21, 2016
5
0
cornwall
Funster No
41,729
MH
coach built
Exp
15+
thanks pappajohn, that too sounds interesting. is the slave cylinder inside the bell housing? if so i guess its a strip down to get at it?

I am heading for croatia this year so quite keen to make a decision early on the work that needs doing... bit of a pain having it done whilst away and all loaded up!

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Feb 16, 2013
19,505
51,186
uttoxeter
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24,713
MH
ambulance conversion
Exp
50 years
I have seen one like this before, my son in law repaired one, it was the slave cylinder leaking on to the clutch while standing but burning off when traveling, does your brake/clutch fluid need topping up regular , if it does that's your problem.(y)
 

Derbyshire wanderer

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Mar 30, 2014
1,269
2,366
Derbyshire
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C class
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I think it will be the master cylinder rather than the slave cylinder. The rubber boot needs pulling back that covers the actuator rod and it is likely that the bore is dry and rusty. Give it a clean up and put some proper brake grease in there (don't use anything else or the seals WILL leak) and you should never have this occur again.
The reason for the master cylinder is that the slave has all of the clutch springs pushing it back so the first operation pushes any crud forward before it releases.
The master cylinder piston is pushed away from the crud but does not get a chance to push it out of the way.

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Feb 16, 2013
19,505
51,186
uttoxeter
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24,713
MH
ambulance conversion
Exp
50 years
O
clutch /brake fluid does not need topping up........
On
On the one I have seen, the cylender is inside the bell house ing and there were no outward signs of anything wrong, and the bloke brought it in because he thought the brakes were leaking as he had to top up occasionally, well it serves both so the only thing it could be was leaking inside the bell housing anyway it was got off and lo and behold there was his brake fluid, it was only then that he said he had the same trouble as you describe with his clutch, anyway replaced clutch and cylender while it was split and no trouble since.
 
Aug 6, 2013
11,941
16,533
Kendal, Cumbria
Funster No
27,352
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Le-Voyageur RX958 Pl
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since 1999
My hydraulic clutch 2005 2.8jtd (probably same as yours) has a gas strut on the pedal to lighten the (foot) pressure needed to disengage it. The strut is arranged so that it is just over centre so it doesn't assist with the first part of pedal travel and therefore doesn't apply any pressure to the clutch pedal when the clutch is fully engaged. My clutch has occasionally slipped and can be instantly cured by hooking a toe under the clutch pedal and lifting it. What I think is happening is that dirt or pedal pivot wear is preventing the pedal returning fully to the rest position so the gas strut is 'riding the pedal' just enough to cause slip. I haven't looked for a solution as yet and have only investigated as far as noticing the strut and understanding what it does. Next time it happens try lifting the pedal - it doesn't move up by much but if I'm correct the clutch will stop slipping.
 

pappajohn

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Aug 26, 2007
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Since 2005
The only difference between a slave cylinder and a disc brake caliper is the shape....both do the same thing...pushing a piston out of a tube.
If your brake disc cant push the piston back by normal disc flexing on cornering etc because of corrosion/crud then your brakes begin binding.
If the clutch springs cant push the piston back in due to corrosion/crud, it holds the pressure plate ever so slightly off the clutch plate...result =clutch slip.
Dont forget, the seal is inside the cylinder, whether on the piston or cylinder, and corrosion can be inside the cylinder and the piston has to pass over it....and return over it..

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Mar 21, 2009
1,367
874
Harwich, Essex
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4 years
If it's any consolation we had to have the clutch replaced on our Fiat whilst we were in Croatia (it went due to re-map but that's another story!!). We had it done at a little independent garage and it cost us less than it would have in the UK, using the same parts -- and we should know as run our own garage!!
 

Eamon Hurley

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Jul 20, 2018
1
0
Funster No
55,043
HI Matthewb, you are not the only one , I have the very same problem with my Swift ducato 2.8 2003 M/Home . I drive to Spain each year , half way down the M1 the clutch starts to slip, I nurse it to france , after 300 odd miles its working fine again untill next years trip. ???its been the same foe the past 3 years .if you find the problem ,please share .
 
Feb 16, 2013
19,505
51,186
uttoxeter
Funster No
24,713
MH
ambulance conversion
Exp
50 years
HI Matthewb, you are not the only one , I have the very same problem with my Swift ducato 2.8 2003 M/Home . I drive to Spain each year , half way down the M1 the clutch starts to slip, I nurse it to france , after 300 odd miles its working fine again untill next years trip. ???its been the same foe the past 3 years .if you find the problem ,please share .
dont think he will mate , he hasnt been on for 2 and a half years

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Jul 13, 2008
3,723
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Since 2007
My clutch just slipped in 4th or 5th while powering uphill or trying to overtake. 1st to 3rd couldn't make it slip, believe me I tried. Drove over 2000 miles in that condition. Got clutch renewed and slave cylinder, original plate looked ok, but slipping stopped. Replaced gearbox oil too while it was out.
 

PeterCarole29

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 23, 2013
1,094
1,129
Colchester
Funster No
27,084
MH
Renault Master Fleetwood
Exp
20 years
Hi we have a renault master 2001 2.8td only done 31.000 the clutch doesn't slip but the pedal sticks down often has done for 2 years.I spoke to a chap who converts renault to horse boxes who knew his stuff and to others .it is very lightly to be your slave cylinder inside the gearbox. Also have 4 renault on film set ambulance only done 25.000miles 1998 same engine one day the pedal would not come up at all fortunately the slave cylinder is on the outside and wd 40 fixed it.
 
Jul 13, 2008
3,723
3,641
Funster No
3,275
MH
Low profile
Exp
Since 2007
Hi we have a renault master 2001 2.8td only done 31.000 the clutch doesn't slip but the pedal sticks down often has done for 2 years.I spoke to a chap who converts renault to horse boxes who knew his stuff and to others .it is very lightly to be your slave cylinder inside the gearbox. Also have 4 renault on film set ambulance only done 25.000miles 1998 same engine one day the pedal would not come up at all fortunately the slave cylinder is on the outside and wd 40 fixed it.
The slave cylinder is outside the gearbox on a Fiat 2.8jtd.

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Jul 13, 2008
3,723
3,641
Funster No
3,275
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Low profile
Exp
Since 2007
Master cylinder behind the clutch pedal can stick, mine did in cold weather after have the hot blowers on full causing the plastic to heat up.
 
Aug 6, 2013
11,941
16,533
Kendal, Cumbria
Funster No
27,352
MH
Le-Voyageur RX958 Pl
Exp
since 1999
so the background is this.
Eura mobil tag axle on fiat ducato 2.8jtd 2002 ( van probably a 2001... but the clutch is hydraulic)

2014 summer holidays... all loaded up to just under max (4500kg) and leave home in cornwall headed for the ferry port. The van hasnt been used much since the previous summer( moved a few times for its mot and a few runs probably once a month) all going lovely until i reach a steep hill on the way out of cornwall.... clutch starts to slip...... doent quite believe it but back off and try again on the next hill sure wnough slips again... start to panic but what to do? the ferry is wating. So we decide to go for it anyway and board the santander ferry. The WHOLE way down im on the internet searching for "how to replace clutch" or "cost of clutch replacements in spain" and generally panicking. When we get to spain i dump a full bottle of water in the bell casing.... ( why? i really dont know!!) and we head off for our 6 weeks holiday. Well i babied the clutch to start with but as the 6 weeks went on i became braver and started to drive it normally again. It did not slip once....... including driving up and over the picos de europa and the pyrenees on the way back.......

2015 summer holidays... exactly the same as 2014.. fully loaded and not used hardly since last summer... and slips on the way to the ferry port. again i can get it to slip at will just by pushing hard on the "go pedal". Get on the ferry (to france this time) and worry about the clkutch again... but not as much as last year.. get to france and spend 6 weeks driving around france... up hill down dale and the clutch does not slip at all for the whole trip.

2016 this last weekend, drive to oxford for the weekend,( lightly loaded probably about 3800kg), first time the van has been anywhere since last september, get out of cornwall ok, fill up with fuel at Weston super mare, get back on the motorway and slip slip slip the rest of teh way to oxford. Obviously as soon as it does it i am backing it off but even so its really easy to get it to slip this time. AND the pedal feels funny, kind of like it is not coming back up all the way, and if i hook my toe under it i can make it return up to a higher position by pulling on it. Get to the campsite at oxford, park up for 3 days.. not too worried as we are in the uk and can get the breakdown to get us home if we have to . So this morning we rock off the chocks and head for home....... clutch pedal no longer feels funny... and whatever i do i cant get the clutch to slip, even on the meanest steepest hill near home it doesnt want to slip. at one point i "think" it started to slip... but im not sure... it may well have been me being paranoid. On the way up to oxford i could make it slip at will........

so the question is... what on earth is going on?
I am reluctant to replace the clutch unless i can work out why it is slipping and why the problem is intermittent and after long periods of standing. Any clues?
Does anyone have a link to an exploded diagram of the clutch assembly? or a decent workshop manual( i have been looking and looking!)
I've posted about this before. I had exactly the same problem. The clutch itself is like any other you might be more familiar with with the exception that the release bearing is combined with an annular 'slave' cylinder. The bleed for this is extended to outside the bell-housing for obvious reasons. The master cylinder is conventional in operation but is small and mounted near the clutch pedal. So far so good. What is unconventional is the pedal and its pivot because it incorporates a gas strut designed to assist the driver in depressing the pedal (ie it makes the clutch lighter than it would otherwise be). The gas strut pivot is designed so that it goes over-centre so for the first small amount of pedal movement there is no help from it. Further movement of the pedal causes the strut to work to help press the pedal. This lot is pretty critical in that the master cylinder doesn't open to the reservoir until it is fully released so if that doesn't happen any residual pressure is trying to disengage the clutch. My van was an A class with no drivers door so accessing the pedal area was best left to a professional contortionist. I did get close enough to understand the problem but that's as far as I got - I simply lifted the clutch pedal slightly on the odd occasion it slipped. That cured it every time. I believe the problem is either wear to, or a lack of lubrication of, the pedal / gas strut / master cylinder rod pivots but as I said - I didn't get that far.
 

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