New regs-confused? (1 Viewer)

zaskar

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I'd like to buy an e-bike for wifey which CAN be used legally in Spain.
Whilst trawling the net on various official web sites, I seem to be getting confusing messages re the twist throttle side of things.
I understand that FULL THROTTLE twist grips are apparently already illegal in Spain and will become so in the UK as of Jan 2016.
However, although the British Electric Bike Association advises steering clear of ANY twist throttle bikes, I've read on one site that START ASSISTANCE twist throttles (up to 6mph) will still conform and be legal in the UK and Spain?
That's all wifey needs, start assistance........pulling away from junctions etc. She's not interested in full 15.5Mph throttle and is happy with assistance once underway.

Could somebody advise please and, if you know of such a bike sub £1000, I'd be pleased to hear of it cos Google isn't being my friend !

Thanks
 

tonka

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Bit of info ref insurance but cant help ref the original question..
All I know it that last week in Benidorm there were loads of them going around.

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I have messaged the police via Facebook with the question. They came back quickly with replies about "A" frame fines, so i will post once i hear anything,.
 
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scotjimland

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What she needs is a pedal assist.. or Pedelec bike .. has no twist throttle, so fully legal both here and Spain..
forum here http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/

We bought two Kalkhoff pedelecs and they are simply fantastic.. it's like having a pair of 18 yo legs again.. three power settings, Eco, Sport and Power.. the range on Eco is over 100 miles.. on power mode about 40..
On Eco it is like someone giving you a gentle push or having a tail wind.. on Sport it's like a strong tail wind.. and on Power being pushed hard ..

when you stand on the pedal starting off it gives you a big boost.. then it assists when needed .. you still get good exercise , but hills just melt.. what hill you think.. as you fly up it with a big smile on your face

sorry, can't help with a sub £1k bike..

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ebikejohn

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Firstly, I am a trader, I sell eBikes,waiting to hear how to make this clear in my profile, I will try to avoid any mention of brands etc.

Most of the eBikes that we sell are to riders who want the twist & go throttle, they are tremendously useful & it is unfortunate that you won't be able to buy them in the UK for much longer, they are very useful for pulling away from traffic lights etc etc.

For the purposes of this post I define twist and go as meaning a system that propels an eBike to 15.5 mph without the need to pedal.

They do not meet regulations throughout the wider EU though, the largest European eBike motor maker is committed to crank drive motors which do not suit twist & go throttles and elsewhere in Europe moped manufacturers are under pressure from eBike sales, Germany is seeing a huge increase in sales of so called S eBikes, these are very fast electric bikes which have to be registered for road use.

The UK has been very slow to wake up to eBikes, in this forum we tend to think of them for leisure purposes but they do make a sensible alternative for commuting for a good many.

The UK has adopted the EU regulations and they are wrong (shaped by commercial lobbying), EU regs have put commercial interests ahead of the needs of older or less fit riders - it is no coincidence that twist & go systems all emanate from the Far East rather than the EU.

eBikes fitted with twist & go throttles delivered to dealers and invoiced before 31/12/15 will still be legal to sell and use in the UK after that date, the rider will need to weigh up the risks about riding a twist & go bike outside of the UK and then balance off the risk of getting caught against the possible implications of an accident involving one.

In January our largest supplier will be sending us their first batch of 2016 eBikes, these will be restricted to 6kmh (4mph) so no good for riding for any distance but very handy for a boosted start from traffic lights etc.

Meanwhile, I am led to believe that several UK eBike manufacturers who have been lobbying for retention of 15mph twist & go have been told that type approval is the way to go but that there is no actual mechanism in place to allow them to do so, billions to waste on HS2 - you couldn't make it up.

A good many partially disabled and/or older riders will have their means to cheaper, healthier and more environmentally friendly travel effectively chopped off.

Sorry to rant but the regulations are not just ill considered they are inconsiderate.

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Welsh girl

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Terry spoke to a lady who owns a bike shop about this and she said it's not illegal yet in Spain to have a throttle so who to believe?
 

Scattycat

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Our e- bikes are not twist throttle but have 3 settings, uphill, down hill and flat.
On either of these setting, when starting off just a slight turn of the pedal brings the motor into action.
Would this not have the same effect as a twist throttle, or is the throttle more instant?
 

Judge Mental

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I'd like to buy an e-bike for wifey which CAN be used legally in Spain.
Whilst trawling the net on various official web sites, I seem to be getting confusing messages re the twist throttle side of things.
I understand that FULL THROTTLE twist grips are apparently already illegal in Spain and will become so in the UK as of Jan 2016.
However, although the British Electric Bike Association advises steering clear of ANY twist throttle bikes, I've read on one site that START ASSISTANCE twist throttles (up to 6mph) will still conform and be legal in the UK and Spain?
That's all wifey needs, start assistance........pulling away from junctions etc. She's not interested in full 15.5Mph throttle and is happy with assistance once underway.

Could somebody advise please and, if you know of such a bike sub £1000, I'd be pleased to hear of it cos Google isn't being my friend !

Thanks

Has you wife ever tried a crank/centre drive bike...she may be pleasently surprised

The 4 mph (6 kph) throttle or button is designed as a walk assist......If some choose to call it start assistance then fair enough. sounds more like dealers trying on the usual to me..As even that against EU law. less face it, these cheap chinese bike so awful to ride without a throttle dealers will say anything to keep market share...

"It's using the walk-alongside throttle without pedalling while in any way onboard the bike which breaks the law. That's because it's permitted only by the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle laws in the UK and the EU, but not by the pedelec laws." quote from my mate flecc on pedelec forum. probably the most knowledgeable man I know re e bikes

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thr...e-bike-with-type-approval-and-throttle.22773/


complicated eh?

All I ever recommend is that people at least try a centre drive bike before getting tied up in knots worrying about this stuff. As the power is there soon as you touch the peddle and will get you up any hill as they drive through the gears, there is no comparison with a crude on/off hub motor bike with throttle, where you have to turn the crank once or twice before motor kicks in? this a joke....try that on a hill. ( there are some new hub bikes with torque sensor where power is immediate) Have lost count of the number of these bike you see being pushed up hills...If you cant get up hills on an e bike whats the point...

I dont think there is any moves by manufacturers to go the expense of type approving throttle bikes due to lack of demand
 
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ebikejohn

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Has you wife ever tried a crank/centre drive bike...she may be pleasently surprised

The 4 mph (6 kph) throttle or button is designed as a walk assist......If some choose to call it start assistance then fair enough. sounds more like dealers trying on the usual to me..As even that against EU law. less face it, these cheap chinese bike so awful to ride without a throttle dealers will say anything to keep market share...

"It's using the walk-alongside throttle without pedalling while in any way onboard the bike which breaks the law. That's because it's permitted only by the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle laws in the UK and the EU, but not by the pedelec laws." quote from my mate flecc on pedelec forum. probably the most knowledgeable man I know re e bikes

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thr...e-bike-with-type-approval-and-throttle.22773/


complicated eh?

All I ever recommend is that people at least try a centre drive bike before getting tied up in knots worrying about this stuff. As the power is there soon as you touch the peddle and will get you up any hill as they drive through the gears, there is no comparison with a crude on/off hub motor bike with throttle, where you have to turn the crank once or twice before motor kicks in? this a joke....try that on a hill. ( there are some new hub bikes with torque sensor where power is immediate) Have lost count of the number of these bike you see being pushed up hills...If you cant get up hills on an e bike whats the point...

I dont think there is any moves by manufacturers to go the expense of type approving throttle bikes due to lack of demand

The reason that no manufacturers are going for type approval is the failure of the British Government to provide a mechanism to apply for type approval.
There are some interesting comments on that page from kudosdave who runs a company selling bikes (we don't sell his bikes so this is not a plug by the way), he understands the issue because he hears from the people who buy the bikes - or at least they would if they hadn't been outlawed.
We sell bikes, crank drive (more profit for us), front hub (extremely simple, very reliable) and rear hub drive (the most popular drive system of them all, incredibly reliable, compact).
Crank drive bikes rely on your effort through the pedal so the initial pedal push has to be substantial, it will match itself to your effort, the more you put in the more involved it becomes, very nice if you are into cycling because it makes an average rider feel like a great rider, a hub drive, especially the latest high torque motor versions give you the beans as soon as the pedal moves, if you have the old (15mph) twist and go you don't even need to touch the pedals, it does it for you - gives you momentum, takes the strain and then (if you wish) you can join in.

I am not too sure how long it is since you rode a hub driven bike or whether it came from an established UK based company but everything I have ridden takes just under one quarter of a turn for the hub motor to join in.

My advice to anybody who wants to try an eBike is try each type of drive, I am not inventing this story, today I had a large 63 year old man come in, a regular cyclist who wanted to look after what he described as his new knees, he had a budget of £2000 and I put him straight on a bike that German manufactured crank drive fanatics would approve of, then he rode a £1600 Chinese crank drive bike and preferred it, he tried a £1400 hub drive bike and then a £1000 bike, he left with the £1000 hub drive bike, not because it is cheaper but because it has twist and go and a high torque at low speed motor, I don't need to explain that I would be much richer this evening if he had gone with the first bike but it wasn't for him, argue all you want - you have to get on it and ride it, he did and he made that choice.

We need twist and go bikes for riders who simply do not have the initial 'grunt' to get themselves going, the good news is that a batch of 2016 model year bikes that arrived with us this morning came with a surprising, upgraded motor/controller package, a high torque at low speed motor and a twist and go to 4mph with real guts to it, you won't be able to ride it moped style but if that initial boost is important then these have it, they come from arguably the biggest UK based eBike company and where they lead I am sure others will follow.
It does not solve the problem for those riders who are unfortunate enough to need assistance without pedalling though.

I do understand that you are a crank drive evangelist Judgemental but this is not a one size fits all world, if a crank drive suits you it doesn't mean that it fits everybody and not everything that comes out China is c**p.

So my advice is - wherever you are and whatever you do - make sure you try some different types and don't just scoot around the car park, stop halfway up a hill and see what it is like to get going again, we've got a 4 mile test route up hill and down dale here but still people come in, sit on a bike and say yes or no without riding it, see what suits you and check out the warranty, then - see what the retailer has to say about parts availability and servicing.
 
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zaskar

zaskar

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We need twist and go bikes for riders who simply do not have the initial 'grunt' to get themselves going, ......................

EXACTLY! Spot on for grasping the important point in my (O/P) case.
Could you please post a link to the machine you describe above.
Thanks.
 

Judge Mental

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EXACTLY! Spot on for grasping the important point in my (O/P) case.
Could you please post a link to the machine you describe above.
Thanks.

Eh? You can go out and buy a twist throttle bike up until the regs change in January. But they are still not legal in Europe.

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ebikejohn

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EXACTLY! Spot on for grasping the important point in my (O/P) case.
Could you please post a link to the machine you describe above.
Thanks.

I have to emphasise that I am a trader but that I am waiting for my trader registration to come through so I cannot post links or promote my own business or I will break the forum rules.

Officially that bike won't be available until late January when the 2016 bikes are launched. I will post the link as soon as I am able.
 

Judge Mental

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I have to emphasise that I am a trader but that I am waiting for my trader registration to come through so I cannot post links or promote my own business or I will break the forum rules.

Officially that bike won't be available until late January when the 2016 bikes are launched. I will post the link as soon as I am able.

I suggest you read @zaskar original post he wants to be able to use bike in Spain...I hope you are prepared to indemnify users of these bikes abroad..and are they EN15194 compliant

I suggest you read Flecc's contribution regards the legality of use of walk beside 4 mph throttles when riding. Bikes are for people who wish to cycle they are not disabled transport. Yes its an unfortunate missed opertunity, but that is the legal position at the moment. There are other types of electric transport available for those with mobility problems if you are unsteady or have difficulty propeling yourself, maybe look at 3 wheeled E bikes where take off not such an issue or adult stabilisers..yes there are such things
 

ebikejohn

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Eh? You can go out and buy a twist throttle bike up until the regs change in January. But they are still not legal in Europe.

My understanding is this, any bike that is invoiced to me (as a dealer) before 1/1/16 with a 15.5mph twist and go throttle fitted as well as the pedelec mode can be sold legally in the UK by me, anybody who buys that bike from me will be able to use the 15.5mph twist and go mode here in the UK without fear of prosecution. The regulations are not retrospective.

The reason that the 15.5mph twist and go will cease to be available is the adoption of EU regulations here in the UK, I have no idea whether other member countries are going to adopt the same regulations.

Like the EU you seem to happily divide the human race into fully fit or disabled, most of our twist & go customers are quite fit and would like to stay that way, they would like to continue to ride a bike, they just aren't quite as fit as they were and a split second burst to help them start their journey is all they want, are you seriously suggesting that we condemn them to trikes and stabilisers?

Yes - of course we only sell bikes that meet EN15194 - we are having this discussion because I have a view and an interest in this issue not because I sell dodgy bikes, one of the first questions that we ask anybody considering a twist and go bike relates to usage outside of the UK, we represent two of the most well known UK eBike companies both manufacture and sell twist and go bikes, both carry extensive coverage of the change in the regulations in their literature and on their websites, one even goes to the trouble of fitting a label printed red on white to their 15.5mph twist and go bikes advising riders to disconnect the throttle when going abroad, it involves pulling a plug out and tucking the cable end away, takes about 30 seconds to do it. As of 1/1/16 both will only supply 4mph twist and go bikes.

Interestingly - both of these companies are confident enough to describe their 4mph twist and go products in the same way: 'Easy Start/Walk Assist', both belong to the Bicycle Association of Great Britain (the British Electric Bike Association has been absorbed into this organisation), neither take the term easy start lightly, we could debate the intricacies of the definition of easy start and walk assist but I am pretty sure that you and Flecc have made your minds up already and that the manufacturers of these bikes (and I) have already made our minds up.

As always, the best advice is - try one, to be frank, with the latest high torque at low speed rear hub motors very few riders will need to resort to the twist and go anyway but its nice to know it is there.

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Judge Mental

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Your getting a tad personal and aggressive... I suggest you look at forum rules. and this "Like the EU you seem to happily divide the human race into fully fit or disabled" is simply shameful and misleading

Trying to undermine my contributions by describing me as evangelical, and fanatical patent nonsense. I am not a vested interest, not promoting anything. Nor am I interested in arguing, when you misinterpret what i say so easily to suit your motives and promote your agenda. As well as totally ignoring the law....

Have already posted why I think promoting the walk along 4 mph throttle as a con trick.

I will ask again: Such is your confidence in your product are you prepared to indemnify the buyers of these bikes for use in Europe its a simple yes or or no question.
 

Judge Mental

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What she needs is a pedal assist.. or Pedelec bike .. has no twist throttle, so fully legal both here and Spain..
forum here http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/

We bought two Kalkhoff pedelecs and they are simply fantastic.. it's like having a pair of 18 yo legs again.. three power settings, Eco, Sport and Power.. the range on Eco is over 100 miles.. on power mode about 40..
On Eco it is like someone giving you a gentle push or having a tail wind.. on Sport it's like a strong tail wind.. and on Power being pushed hard ..

when you stand on the pedal starting off it gives you a big boost.. then it assists when needed .. you still get good exercise , but hills just melt.. what hill you think.. as you fly up it with a big smile on your face

sorry, can't help with a sub £1k bike..

And why its so important for all to try what these centre drive bikes are actually like to ride. They may discover they don't have problem at all. Out of interest what kinda of bikes did you ride before this
 

Judge Mental

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This is the best, and easiest to understand interpretation of the new UK laws http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike-guides/uk-electric-bike-law/

Ginny


yes it is and clearly states this:

"This is entirely separate to ‘walk assist mode’ throttles that power the bike to a 6kmh top limit i.e. walking speed, to help you push the bike along, which are not affected by this law update."

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hilldweller

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Sorry to rant but the regulations are not just ill considered they are inconsiderate.

The sooner you remove yourself from this forum the better.

I've never seen so much common sense, accuracy and logic in posts before, this forum did not get where it is today by having common sense, accuracy and logic. The olde fartes can't take it.

I hadn't sussed this problem as being commercially driven ( I'm getting old, I've seen this often in other fields ) but now you have pointed it out it's obvious, nothing but back door protectionism. The idiots will find it does not give them an advantage for long but we have to live with the consequences.

We may be able to leave the EU but it sure as hell won't go away.
 

ebikejohn

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Woah, I suggest that you go back through some of your old posts and have a look at what you have said, then reconsider.

Let's deal with some more recent ones in the meantime 'cheap Chinese bikes are awful to ride' that is before you move onto questioning whether the bikes I sell are compliant - a pretty basic requisite for any reputable business, you have questioned my integrity - I could take offence but I've read some of your other posts so I'm not really too bothered.

Not sure what it is that I need indemnify my customers against but I am more than happy to guarantee that I will only sell eBikes from manufacturers who build bikes that comply with EU regulations.

You are outspoken and clearly have very strong opinions and I'm surprised that when you are confronted you take it so personally, come on - play the game - you give it - you take it.

Not sure why you need to know what bikes I rode before coming into the eBike business, quite a few actually, never spent more than £1000 on anything but but there is a Trek Superfly and a Specialized something or other in the garage at the moment that I really ought to sell.

It's you that wants everybody to try a centre drive bike not me, I want them to try front, rear and centre drive bikes and allow them to make their own minds up.

I'm fanatical about old Jags, feel they should only ever have six or twelve cylinder engines, would be happy if somebody called me a William Lyons evangelist - being called one is not a personal attack unless you decide it is.

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Judge Mental

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Its an unfortunate fact of life that some just look for confirmation of there needs and ignore any forthcoming information that they dont like..No matter what the vested interests tell you that appears more palatable to your ears:)

Once again for the hard of hearing....

"Hi Eddie, good to hear from you again.

The Walk Alongside law isn't in any way an e-bike law, it's just e-bikes taking advantage of the Pedestrian Controlled vehicle regulations. Those regulations were passed to permit the walk along small vans etc used by the Post Office and some dairies etc for deliveries, like this one:

http://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/gallery/Trucks/Misc 5133.jpg

In the UK there isn't a single separate law, the regulations are included in the Road Traffic Act 1960 and the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1957, and general legal approval for use passed through the House of Lords in 1963.

The regulations permit lighter ones to be unregistered, heavier ones have to be registered and there's a group K driving licence for them. The control is by the pedestrian walking and their slight pull on the handle applying power. When they stop and there's no more pull, the power cuts and brakes come on. Maximum speed allowed is 4mph Note the pedestrian cannot be on board, they have to be walking at all times. The EU has similar regulations allowing 6 kph (3.6 mph), and so has Switzerland.

E-biking has taken advantage of these laws by using self-cancelling thumb lever throttles, but again note the person has to be walking in law. As soon as they get on board they are breaking the law, hence that Spanish case. A test case in Britain ruled that even putting one foot on a pedal and scooting means a cyclist is no longer a pedestrian, so it follows from all this that the walk alongside throttle must not be used as a get off the mark throttle, so those dealers recommending this use are wrong in law.

Being on board breaches pedelec law, type approval law and pedestrian controlled vehicle law."


more on this thread:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/lets-keep-the-throttle.21805/page-5#post-283710

there are no grey area or fuddle its simply black and white, the law clear. Its not these dealers that will have to deal with the grumpy Spanish traffic cop however slim the possibility of getting pulled, being involved in an accident that situation changes exponentially! Your money your choice. But when you can buy a centre drive bike form Germany that are totally legal and easy to ride from £1000-1.200 whats the point of taking any sort of risk...
 
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ebikejohn

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I remember them when they were new Jags. They were rotten heaps. I had a 2.4, lovely car but the time I spent renewing the door panels was terrible.
Me to, these days it's a 96 XJ6, remarkably rust free and very reliable but pretty thirsty, not a classic, just a lovely old car.

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hilldweller

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Me to, these days it's a 96 XJ6, remarkably rust free and very reliable but pretty thirsty, not a classic, just a lovely old car.

That's a new one to me. I remember driving Mk8, Mk9, all the Mk2s, E-Type and the XK140S. It helped having an uncle who was a used car dealer. One thing that sticks in my mind is the beautiful woodwork and the purple dash lamps in the old ones. I remember delivering a 3.8 for him, got it down to 15 mpg. Who in their right mind would give a 3.8 to a teenager to deliver how I survived I don't know.
 

ebikejohn

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I apologise, this thread has turned into a squabble between me and Judgemental, and it has wasted a lot of time.

From January 2016 the twist & go throttle will only assist to 6kmh an hour, this might be seen as pedestrian assist but just try walking alongside a bike at that speed, on second thoughts don't - we have German bikes with that facility (interestingly they call it turbo on the controls) the pedals make mincemeat of your shins.

Many UK based manufacturers have taken the opportunity to give riders the ability to openly use this as a start assist, in my experience it works on the latest generation eBikes that I have seen, it helps you to get up into the pedals, no more, I don't think you could actually ride it at that speed.

Incidentally, almost all of the new bikes have a switch that enables you to switch the hand throttle off if you wish.

More importantly, all of the newer (2015 model year bikes) are easier to start off when pedalling from a standstill than any of the mid (or crank) drive bikes that we stock, that includes the latest Chinese sourced crank drive and the leading German brand.

All of them conform to EU regs and meet the latest regs, if you think that using the easy start/pedestrian assist throttle will be against the law switch it off, the button is bright red and right next to your right thumb, if you leave it on and you put your foot on the pedal it instantly disconnects and you are straight into full pedelec mode.

If you are riding an older 15.5mph twist & go bike in Europe you probably need to make up your own mind about whether you are likely to get caught and treated as a tearaway, I wouldn't advise anybody to buy a new 15.5mph twist and go if they are planning to ride it on the European mainland.

If you are planing to ride your eBike in mainland Europe it complies and is perfectly legal regardless of whether it has the 4mph twist and go as long as it meets EN15194, make sure you go to a reputable dealer, check out the manufacturers website and look for that confirmation, all of the big UK makers comply. Look for companies that have been around for a while and have a proper dealer network and ask about dealer back up, warranty and ask about spare parts availability.

Don't get hung up on German bikes being better, we have just had three bikes from one best known German brands delivered to us and they have Made in Taiwan stamped all over the boxes, good bikes though.

That's it from me on this one, as I said in my first post, go and try each type, make your own mind up.
 

Judge Mental

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No squabbling here..its you having the personal digs at every opportunity. All I do is try and protect fellow funster's for falling for this patent if not laughable nonsense...

This has nothing to do with what sort of bikes you prefer or choose to buy but the legality of use and if they fully comply with EN15194

So I guess with you silence on the matter you are not willing to indemnify buyers of your bikes for use in Europe.. Such is your confidence in the legality..I think funster's can now make their own minds up

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