Carbon monoxide poisioning (1 Viewer)

Dave F

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Advice please on our legal position?

Last month we bought a nice autosleeper Ravenna 10yrs old from a dealer. It came with a habitation check. All fine. Last Sunday we went away for our first week.

Yesterday morning we put the heater on -first time- for a 1/2 hr. A short while later our badly arthritic 15 yr old dog lost her footing and collapsed. First thoughts were her age so wife set off to site warden to find local vet. But when she got back, she too was ill and short of breath. I was short of breath as well but had put it down to emotion of saying goodbye to our pet.

Then we put 2 and2 together and realised we were all being gassed. Obviously we turned gas off opened windows and we all got outside, dog dizzy all morning but recovered eventually, wife terrible headache and nauseous all day ended up with trip to casualty 8 hours later where blood test confirmed we had been poisoned by CO but the blood levels now low enough to not need further treatment.

Today we ran a test with a newly purchased CO alarm. It went off within 3 mins indicating a level of over 300 ppm (I.e. Life threatening levels)

The gas check sheet says 32mb operating pressure, and passes for: operation of safety device, ventilation, flue type, flue spillage,flue termination, extended flue, and flue condition, and appliance safe to use. The report comes on a photocopied NCC gas check form but the dealer is not a member of NCC according to the NCC website.

My question is before we approach the dealer what LEGAL rights have we with them?
  • does the above prove that they knowingly faked/falsified a gas check?
  • Should he be presenting reports on an NCC form?
  • Can we expect compensation for nearly killing the three of us
  • or simply that he gets the problem fixed?

Any advice on (polite) ways to peruse this with the dealer please.

Dave
 
D

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Any check of that type is the same as an MOT. It only says that the items tested were OK at the time of test, not that they will be OK 5 minutes down the road. For any comeback you will need some investigation to show that your problem was beyond any doubt existing at the time of the test.

You really need to get someone independent, unfortunately at your expense initially, to investigate and establish the cause of the problem and then take it from there. If it turns out to be something that's obviously been there for a long time then you have somewhere to go. If it turns out to be something that looks like it could have happened yesterday then you probably don't.

With regard to using a form from an organisation they aren't a member of that's none of your business. It would be for the NCC to persue if they feel they need to.

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Oct 1, 2007
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Advice please on our legal position?

Last month we bought a nice autosleeper Ravenna 10yrs old from a dealer. It came with a habitation check. All fine. Last Sunday we went away for our first week.

Yesterday morning we put the heater on -first time- for a 1/2 hr. A short while later our badly arthritic 15 yr old dog lost her footing and collapsed. First thoughts were her age so wife set off to site warden to find local vet. But when she got back, she too was ill and short of breath. I was short of breath as well but had put it down to emotion of saying goodbye to our pet.

Then we put 2 and2 together and realised we were all being gassed. Obviously we turned gas off opened windows and we all got outside, dog dizzy all morning but recovered eventually, wife terrible headache and nauseous all day ended up with trip to casualty 8 hours later where blood test confirmed we had been poisoned by CO but the blood levels now low enough to not need further treatment.

Today we ran a test with a newly purchased CO alarm. It went off within 3 mins indicating a level of over 300 ppm (I.e. Life threatening levels)

The gas check sheet says 32mb operating pressure, and passes for: operation of safety device, ventilation, flue type, flue spillage,flue termination, extended flue, and flue condition, and appliance safe to use. The report comes on a photocopied NCC gas check form but the dealer is not a member of NCC according to the NCC website.

My question is before we approach the dealer what LEGAL rights have we with them?
  • does the above prove that they knowingly faked/falsified a gas check?
  • Should he be presenting reports on an NCC form?
  • Can we expect compensation for nearly killing the three of us
  • or simply that he gets the problem fixed?

Any advice on (polite) ways to peruse this with the dealer please.

Dave
Contact gas safe register anyone working on gas for profit/living
has to be registered

They will contact HSE if required I believe

Please check link below before you get help

Also tell them you went to hospital

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/help/report_an_illegal_gas_engineer.aspx
 
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Apr 13, 2012
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As has been said I think you should find the cause of the CO before deciding what to do next.

The van is new to you .....is that a factor?.........was there a flue cover that needed removing?

Thanks for posting if only to point out the need for CO detectors


Your post reads that you lost your pet, I am sorry if it was due to the CO but hopefully there are no long term effects for yourselves

Best wishes

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Dave F

Dave F

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Contact gas safe register anyone working on gas for profit/living
has to be registered

Is that the case for those who do gas safety checks in the course of habitation checks? - Is an approved habitation check person also gas safe registered? My research of their websites (and the National Caravan Council approved hab checkers) suggest not, very few claim to be gas safe engineers as well...

Hab checks do not constitute work being done on a gas appliance, simply a check that it is operating properly. Theres a difference there I think...
 
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TheBig1

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it could be a potential criminal case, so make sure you get a test done and fully recorded. far too many cowboy operations out there pretending to do gas safety checks on leisure vehicles

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Oct 1, 2007
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Is that the case for those who do gas safety checks in the course of habitation checks? - Is an approved habitation check person also gas safe registered? My research of their websites (and the National Caravan Council approved hab checkers) suggest not, very few claim to be gas safe engineers as well...



As far as I am aware before I could work on LPG for domestic
Use I had to be certificated and that was only to make safe
I am sure anyone selling their skills in gas work
Has to be registered

A call to gas safe would answer the question
As I have been retired 5 years I couldn't be sure
But rules rarely slacken they generally become strickter
 
Feb 24, 2013
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As said above, get an independent test done to prove what went wrong, it might be a very unlucky coincidence

Did you remove the cover from the heater vent outside?

Glad you are all OK now, it could have been so much worse, but you didn't think to get a CO monitor, a tested system can still go wrong, sorry to be blunt but this should put in MH before anything else, same applies to your house, very similar risks there too

No you will not be entitled to compensation for a near miss, why should you be?

But if the tests carried out have not been done properly the offending engineer should be struck off and possibly jailed

Another useful reminder for all of us to get a CO monitor tomorrow if we don't already have one, or two, MH and house (y)
 
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May 29, 2013
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Would the people who wrote out the safety cert. if proved to have not been qualified / in-competant, not be libel for the hurt the op and his wife (don't know about hurt to dog) suffered. After all they were ill enough to attend hospital.

It certainly is an offence to work on gas equipment if you are not suitably qualified and registered. If the people who carried out the "safety check" pronounced that it was safe to use then they must have been qualified to do so. (Or not as the case may be proved).

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Jul 27, 2010
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Is that the case for those who do gas safety checks in the course of habitation checks? - Is an approved habitation check person also gas safe registered? My research of their websites (and the National Caravan Council approved hab checkers) suggest not, very few claim to be gas safe engineers as well...

Hab checks do not constitute work being done on a gas appliance, simply a check that it is operating properly. Theres a difference there I think...

I would expect the gas safety check to include soundness/tightness testing of the complete system before any appliance checks are carried out. If doing this for"profit" then the engineer must be Gas Safe registered for the tasks being performed on that group of gas.
I think there is still the anomally that a "competent person" can work on gas, if not for profit, If some thing went wrong that person would be deemed "incompetent" and prosecuted.
 
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I bought a ten year old Elddis motorhome a couple of years ago, loads of paperwork all carried out by the supplying dealer including six habitation checks. When I tried to service the fridge, I was Gas Safe registered, I got my chair out, removed the lower grille, nothing behind, only a plywood box. Google revealed that wheelarch fridges are made, did not know that. Elddis in their wisdom had put the grilles in for a normal fridge, boxed the lower grille in with plywood and fitted a wheelarch model, so impossible to service without removing fridge, and illegal as the bottom vent may as well not been there.
When removing the fridge it was obvious that this was the first time it had been out since new, so it had never been serviced despite all the paperwork.
 
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Is that the case for those who do gas safety checks in the course of habitation checks? - Is an approved habitation check person also gas safe registered? My research of their websites (and the National Caravan Council approved hab checkers) suggest not, very few claim to be gas safe engineers as well...

Hab checks do not constitute work being done on a gas appliance, simply a check that it is operating properly. Theres a difference there I think...

Forget GasSafe. You don't need to be registered to work on caravans.

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Feb 24, 2013
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Is that the case for those who do gas safety checks in the course of habitation checks? - Is an approved habitation check person also gas safe registered? My research of their websites (and the National Caravan Council approved hab checkers) suggest not, very few claim to be gas safe engineers as well...

Hab checks do not constitute work being done on a gas appliance, simply a check that it is operating properly. Theres a difference there I think...

Just revisited my own comments, it is actually very unlikely there will be any cover on the heater vents, but there may be one on the water heater

So glad you got out when you did, so lucky (y)(y):)
 
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For CO to enter the habitation area two conditions have to be met: an appliance has to be producing CO which only happens if there's incomplete combustion ("yellow flame"). And there has to be some way for the CO to escape into the vehicle interior. If your heater is of the type that is visible and mounted on a panel usually below the wardrobe door then it takes air for combustion from outside and underneath the van. It exhausts via a flexible flue pipe that can be seen passing up through the wardrobe and out via the roof.

Incomplete combustion and leakage of the exhaust into the vehicle would both occur if the flue pipe within the wardrobe was damaged or, more likely, had come apart at its connection with the heater. This connection can be seen at the back of the heater underneath the blown air fan. You access this area via the floor of the wardrobe. If your heater is this type it might be worth a look?

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CWH

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So pleased that you're all safe and recovering from what must have been a very scary event.

Advice please on our legal position?
Knowing nothing about gas or the legalities involved, I think that in your position, and armed with some of the advice given above and maybe a bit of follow-up 'homework', I'd be talking to CAB &/or taking advantage of a solicitor's free first half-hour consultation, before tackling the dealer.
 

Jaws

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Darrell ( my son and Nemo on here ) is a Gas Safe fitter and had to spend a further ÂŁ500 to complete the LPG part of the course.
Out of all the gas Safe fitters we both know, he is the only guy around here who has the full certification to work on LPG systems.. so be careful who you ask !
 
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Not if the OP requires a document that would stand up in court, this is a very serious incident. The OP is fortunate that it affected the dog first.

Sorry you're wrong. It is not possible to be GasSafe registered to work on a caravan. Such a registration does not exist.
Also GasSafe registrations specify types of appliances an engineer is certified to work on. As far as I'm aware (it's been a couple of years so I may be wrong) a gas fridge is not an appliance it is possible to be certified for so if you want to apply GasSafe rules strictly there are no GasSafe registered engineers that would be qualified to carry out a service or inspection on a caravan or motorhome under the banner of their scheme.

A far more appropriate person would be an engineer approved by the NCC

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Dave F

Dave F

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A far more appropriate person would be an engineer approved by the NCC

Yes thats why I'm bothered dealer is using NCC report forms when they are not approved by NCC. It misled me. So I think it is relevant NicNic.

My plan of action tomorrow is to contact a gas safe registered LPG firm to diagnose problem and let me know whether the Hab check report should have picked this picked this up, and obtain quote for fix.

Then off to dealer or trading standards, depending on what they say
 
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Yes thats why I'm bothered dealer is using NCC report forms when they are not approved by NCC. It misled me. So I think it is relevant NicNic.

My plan of action tomorrow is to contact a gas safe registered LPG firm to diagnose problem and let me know whether the Hab check report should have picked this picked this up, and obtain quote for fix.

Then off to dealer or trading standards, depending on what they say

It's up to you of course but I still think it's the wrong way to go as GS have no responsibility for or authority over caravan installations. If you can find a GS engineer with an lpg ticket (which is easier said than done sometimes) who is also familiar enough with caravan systems to offer an opinion then he may do just that but it will only be an opinion. He won't be able to give you any kind of report under the GS banner as its outside their scope of authority. If he does it won't be worth the paper it's written on.

The best analogy I can think of is that it would be like taking your petrol lawnmower to an MOT garage and expecting them to know what you are asking for.


They won't even know what you are talking about if you mention a Hab Check. A Hab Check is an all round check with the gas element only being a tiny part of it. There is a sample tick sheet for one on here somewhere. I'm on a phone in France so can't find it for you now but it will come up if you search. From memory all it is is a tightness/drop test on the supply pipes so it wouldn't have picked up a faulty appliance anyway.


You will be far far better off contacting the NCC, explaining the issue and asking them to recommend one of their approved engineers closer to you. They will be familiar with and trained on the specific type of installation involved and will be in a position to help you move things further if they find anything that warrants it

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movan

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Just to warn you, I have problems too and my CO alarm keeps going off.... I phoned up several local places and the earliest appointment for it all to be checked out is in September ... so you may have a wait :(
 

swanseajack13

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as a gas safe registered engineer I will check tomorrow about this, but I know that if you have a static caravan you have to be lpg registered to work on any gas boiler or heater, you must get a report from the hospital as this is a health and safety (ridol) a very serious problem. not lol until I get the answer ray
 

Bobby22

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Just to warn you, I have problems too and my CO alarm keeps going off.... I phoned up several local places and the earliest appointment for it all to be checked out is in September ... so you may have a wait :(

Edit....re-read and my reply didn't make sense.......but do have it checked before too long.

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TheBig1

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Just to warn you, I have problems too and my CO alarm keeps going off.... I phoned up several local places and the earliest appointment for it all to be checked out is in September ... so you may have a wait :(
added to your post about using more gas than usual, thats very worrying
 

wasp

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I too am Gas Safe registered and my LPG covers Mobile Homes ,Residential Park Homes and Leisure Accommodation Vehicles if you ask Gas Safe they reckon every one who works on any gas appliance should be registered and competent to work on the category he has been trained and assessed but the MCEA reckon not
 

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All the arguing about trade bodies does not help this situation. The flue or inlet system is at fault somewhere and it is easy enough to check on where and how it happens then get it fixed. Fridge or boiler what was in operation at the time? and were the covers OFF the outside vents and the flues open. Gas operation is in two parts fuel gas in and no leaks, then combustion products OUT and no leaks.
Fitters and other workers have to have common sense not paperwork to understand what is right and wrong.
The houses blown up in Ashford a few weeks ago were being worked on by a GAS SAFE fitter from the Network company so he should have been OK but he blew up three houses. Stupid is stupid even when certificated by a self seeking trade body.

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